Essays.

[Shadow Conception]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
If taught properly, essays are a great tool for teaching how to structure an argument, back up the claims with positive evidence, and strike down or address some counter claims that could be made (and show why those counter claims would be wrong).

Agreed. Have any of you actually read a real, competently written academic essay? They're quite good and having a structure <gasp> does help.

Essays teach you to think in a logical manner, and if you can't do that, you have no business participating in a modern society.

Why do we need essays to have us think in a logical manner? I'd say outlines (such as the ones you write for an essay) are 10x better. My essays are nothing more than my outlines extrapolated into several paragraphs.

Not only do outlines teach you to think logically, but also concisely. Essays teach you everything making an outline does, only it includes having to worry about more rules of grammar, topic sentence, concluding sentence, etc.

 

[LtPage1]

Originally posted by: Shadow Conception

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
If taught properly, essays are a great tool for teaching how to structure an argument, back up the claims with positive evidence, and strike down or address some counter claims that could be made (and show why those counter claims would be wrong).

Agreed. Have any of you actually read a real, competently written academic essay? They're quite good and having a structure <gasp> does help.

Essays teach you to think in a logical manner, and if you can't do that, you have no business participating in a modern society.

Why do we need essays to have us think in a logical manner? I'd say outlines (such as the ones you write for an essay) are 10x better. My essays are nothing more than my outlines extrapolated into several paragraphs.

Not only do outlines teach you to think logically, but also concisely. Essays teach you everything making an outline does, only it includes having to worry about more rules of grammar, topic sentence, concluding sentence, etc.

No one was ever convinced by an outline. Language is what it means to be human- communication is not shouting facts at each other.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: GasX
OP, ever read a magazine or newspaper editorial?

Yes. Ever written in one? I have. Those aren't essays.

Okay just to clarify peoples, I'm talking about academic essays. I have rarely heard the term used in a non-academic setting, but if you want a broader definition, then I'll narrow it down to academic for this topic.

 

[LtPage1]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: GasX
OP, ever read a magazine or newspaper editorial?

Yes. Ever written in one? I have. Those aren't essays.

Okay just to clarify peoples, I'm talking about academic essays. I have rarely heard the term used in a non-academic setting, but if you want a broader definition, then I'll narrow it down to academic for this topic.

Read some of the posts above. I suck at math, but that doesn't mean I complain about how it's useless.

 

[Ronstang]

Ah, another geek who is good at math that thinks anything he isn't good at or doesn't like should not be a part of the education process. You obviously aren't as smart as you think, huh?

 

[Mrvile]

SagaLore, do you have some sort of notion that an essay must be in "intro -> three to five body paragraphs -> conclusion" format, or be limited to a specific format at all? Also, where do you get the idea that no one enjoys either reading or writing essays? What the hell is an "academic essay" anyway?

I think the narrowness of your approach to the concept of an essay resonates quite loudly with your opinion regarding it.

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: MrChad

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Random thought of the day...

I think that "Essay Writing" is one of the worst contributions to our culture. Think about this... what does it actually do for the us? How is this productive to either the writer or the reader? People don't read essays, ever. Teachers read them and grade them. Its a lesson in busy work. Its confinement and constraint of what could be creative free flowing talent.

When you read a book, its not in essay format. Websites are not designed in essay format. Marketing is not designed in essay format. Lab reports are not in essay format. NOTHING is designed in essay format, except for essays.

:frown:

Essay writing teaches you to collect and organize your thoughts, present an argument and support that argument with facts. In a day and age where grown adults can barely formulate a coherent email message, I'd say teaching essay writing is more important than ever.

Word.

Honesty the only conclusion I can draw is that the OP is not a fan of teaching and developing critical thinking; sort of ironic in a way.

Essays in school (be it college or grade school) can be a pain in the ass for the student - as well as the teacher grading them - but they are a fundamental tool in having a balanced education.

 

[Shadow Conception]

Originally posted by: LtPage1

Originally posted by: Shadow Conception

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
If taught properly, essays are a great tool for teaching how to structure an argument, back up the claims with positive evidence, and strike down or address some counter claims that could be made (and show why those counter claims would be wrong).

Agreed. Have any of you actually read a real, competently written academic essay? They're quite good and having a structure <gasp> does help.

Essays teach you to think in a logical manner, and if you can't do that, you have no business participating in a modern society.

Why do we need essays to have us think in a logical manner? I'd say outlines (such as the ones you write for an essay) are 10x better. My essays are nothing more than my outlines extrapolated into several paragraphs.

Not only do outlines teach you to think logically, but also concisely. Essays teach you everything making an outline does, only it includes having to worry about more rules of grammar, topic sentence, concluding sentence, etc.

No one was ever convinced by an outline. Language is what it means to be human- communication is not shouting facts at each other.

So are we trying to convince people now instead of learning to think logically?

Also, you don't need to write a five paragraph essay to persuade. That can be done through unrestricted prose; a mixture of sentences and bullet points. Hell, it can be done through sitting down and speaking with someone. You don't need to follow the guidelines of an "academic" essay (intro, body paragraphs, conclusion, all paragraphs at least 5 sentences, essay at least 3 pages, MLA format) to become an effective communicator.

 

[nageov3t]

because displaying in-depth knowledge of a topic and presenting a complex argument that can't be boiled down into a listicle is a good thing?

 

[So]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: MrChad
Essay writing teaches you to collect and organize your thoughts, present an argument and support that argument with facts. In a day and age where grown adults can barely formulate a coherent email message, I'd say teaching essay writing is more important than ever.

That is what Presentations are for.

The essay format is only appreciated by teachers. I don't know anybody that has ever said "hey, I think I'll read some essays today", or instead of a memo the boss says "Bob, send me an essay on this year's budget by this Friday".

Then, you don't associate with very bright people. Just because we don't call them essays doesn't mean "hey, can you put together a business case for why we should do X" is anything but an essay.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: mjrpes3
The word essay means "to try, to attempt". A good essayist learns about their subject, and themselves, through the essay writing process. Because the form has become so rigid and lifeless today, it ain't got the respect it deserves.

I've learned that if you're rigidly following those "evidence, argument, argument" forms of essay, you're not writing a good essay.

I write:

Intro

Topic 1

Topic 2

Topic 3

...

Conclusion

Treat each paragraph like a mini essay in and of itself, with an intro and a conclusion, the rest is basically just arguing a point like you would here, except you don't just make up BS, you actually provide evidence.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: Shadow Conception

Originally posted by: LtPage1

Originally posted by: Shadow Conception

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
If taught properly, essays are a great tool for teaching how to structure an argument, back up the claims with positive evidence, and strike down or address some counter claims that could be made (and show why those counter claims would be wrong).

Agreed. Have any of you actually read a real, competently written academic essay? They're quite good and having a structure <gasp> does help.

Essays teach you to think in a logical manner, and if you can't do that, you have no business participating in a modern society.

Why do we need essays to have us think in a logical manner? I'd say outlines (such as the ones you write for an essay) are 10x better. My essays are nothing more than my outlines extrapolated into several paragraphs.

Not only do outlines teach you to think logically, but also concisely. Essays teach you everything making an outline does, only it includes having to worry about more rules of grammar, topic sentence, concluding sentence, etc.

No one was ever convinced by an outline. Language is what it means to be human- communication is not shouting facts at each other.

So are we trying to convince people now instead of learning to think logically?

Also, you don't need to write a five paragraph essay to persuade. That can be done through unrestricted prose; a mixture of sentences and bullet points. Hell, it can be done through sitting down and speaking with someone. You don't need to follow the guidelines of an "academic" essay (intro, body paragraphs, conclusion, all paragraphs at least 5 sentences, essay at least 3 pages, MLA format) to become an effective communicator.

Show me a persuasive, coherent argument that is based around bullet points and incomplete paragraphs.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Mrvile
SagaLore, do you have some sort of notion that an essay must be in "intro -> three to five body paragraphs -> conclusion" format, or be limited to a specific format at all? Also, where do you get the idea that no one enjoys either reading or writing essays? What the hell is an "academic essay" anyway?

I think the narrowness of your approach to the concept of an essay resonates quite loudly with your opinion regarding it.

Or perhaps I'm taking classes again, and have to do essays. :frown:

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: So
Show me a persuasive, coherent argument that is based around bullet points and incomplete paragraphs.

Here you go:

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3508

Now tell me, is this an essay?

 

[mjrpes3]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: GasX
OP, ever read a magazine or newspaper editorial?

Yes. Ever written in one? I have. Those aren't essays.

Okay just to clarify peoples, I'm talking about academic essays. I have rarely heard the term used in a non-academic setting, but if you want a broader definition, then I'll narrow it down to academic for this topic.

Essays, as taught in school, are so rigid, not only rigidity of outline but rigidity of thought, that it is no wonder that most people hate them. In a good academic setting, an essay will simply be the presenting an idea (thesis) and defining and defending it from multiple angles. The actual form of the essay will be open, as long as it works to support the thesis and it within the norms of the academic department.

But essays are more than that. Essays are an exploratory process: you work out an idea (thesis) and test it to the metal. Often as you attempt to defend your thesis you realize halfway through that it does not work: either you can't back it up with reasoning or proof or you realize it's trivial and not worth writing about. And often in the midst of writing you'll go down tangents of thought as you muck through your ideas, and these tangents may become the backbone of a new thesis, much stronger and interesting than the original. These refinements couldn't have come about without going through the writing process and taking advantage of the creativity that comes about from it.

That is why, for me, the essay form is essential for critically thinking and is without substitute.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: MrChad

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Random thought of the day...

I think that "Essay Writing" is one of the worst contributions to our culture. Think about this... what does it actually do for the us? How is this productive to either the writer or the reader? People don't read essays, ever. Teachers read them and grade them. Its a lesson in busy work. Its confinement and constraint of what could be creative free flowing talent.

When you read a book, its not in essay format. Websites are not designed in essay format. Marketing is not designed in essay format. Lab reports are not in essay format. NOTHING is designed in essay format, except for essays.

:frown:

Essay writing teaches you to collect and organize your thoughts, present an argument and support that argument with facts. In a day and age where grown adults can barely formulate a coherent email message, I'd say teaching essay writing is more important than ever.

tits.


I love writing essays

 

[Dumac]

If you think that writing well-formulated argumentative essays does not build one's critical thinking skills then either:

1. You cannot create one

or

2. You are dumb

Also, essays are everywhere. Academic journals are filled with essays. So are many other esteemed literary sources. Why don't you try reading some for a change?

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: So
Show me a persuasive, coherent argument that is based around bullet points and incomplete paragraphs.

Here you go:

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3508

Now tell me, is this an essay?

wait....


.....are you saying you can't find the elements of essay style in that piece?


Ouch.

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: Shadow Conception

Why do we need essays to have us think in a logical manner? I'd say outlines (such as the ones you write for an essay) are 10x better. My essays are nothing more than my outlines extrapolated into several paragraphs.

Not only do outlines teach you to think logically, but also concisely. Essays teach you everything making an outline does, only it includes having to worry about more rules of grammar, topic sentence, concluding sentence, etc.

There is no way that a simple outline can contain all the information necessary to convey a solid argument. Yes, an outline can help rectify any errors in the logical procession of your paper, but a outline does not have enough meat to make an impact.

Also, you don't need to write a five paragraph essay to persuade. That can be done through unrestricted prose; a mixture of sentences and bullet points. Hell, it can be done through sitting down and speaking with someone. You don't need to follow the guidelines of an "academic" essay (intro, body paragraphs, conclusion, all paragraphs at least 5 sentences, essay at least 3 pages, MLA format) to become an effective communicator.

Any decent writing program should have told you that a five paragraph essay is the worst type type of essay and automatically hand out an F or D for an essay of that type.

Also, any decent writing program should consider grammar and mechanics the least important part of the grading process. Well developed reasoning and persuasive implementation are far more important, as well as supporting your argument with substantial evidence and handling counterarguments.

 

[sandorski]

The we benefit greatly, both for learning to write and formulating good argument. The you simply don't want to do the your homework.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

<== back when they had two parts to the SATS:
MATH 710
ENGLISH 300

Today I am an engineer and I greatly appreciate the necesity to learn to write good essays. It's not hard but it is a bit of an art:
1) INTRO: Say what you are going to tell us
2) BODY: Tell us
3) CONCLUSION: Summarize that the things in the body were in the intro

Granted, with things I write these days, the conclusion is not done, but an introduction is needs. Saying what is in the 100 page document in 2 pages is a must!

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: So
Show me a persuasive, coherent argument that is based around bullet points and incomplete paragraphs.

Here you go:

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3508

Now tell me, is this an essay?

I would say it is, but even if it isn't, it contains many of the important factors of essay writing.

I don't get why you don't like essays. They aren't rigid at all. True writing is the most free academic process I know of.

 

[sactoking]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
NOTHING is designed in essay format, except for essays.

:frown:

See: Basically any high-level journal or professional paper ever published.

 

[nerp]

Originally posted by: Aluvus

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: MrChad
Essay writing teaches you to collect and organize your thoughts, present an argument and support that argument with facts. In a day and age where grown adults can barely formulate a coherent email message, I'd say teaching essay writing is more important than ever.

That is what Presentations are for.

Presentations emphasize getting in the most important ideas in a time-constrained environment, plus the factors unique to public speaking (confidence etc.). Essays emphasize a careful assembly and analysis of the facts able to stand up to careful scrutiny. Nearly everything about the medium is different.

The essay format is only appreciated by teachers. I don't know anybody that has ever said "hey, I think I'll read some essays today", or instead of a memo the boss says "Bob, send me an essay on this year's budget by this Friday".

Your newspaper's op-ed section is essentially a collection of essays. Many blogs are essentially made up of short-form essays. Some books are collections of essays (and marketed as such), while many others are effectively long-form essays. Academic journals in the social sciences are substantially full of different sorts of essays. Hell, your OP is just a short essay on why you dislike essays. And frankly it reads like someone that is only really familiar with one particularly timid, unpleasant dog and then asks others, "What's the deal with dogs? They're a useless part of our culture."

Honestly, you should read more.

You spared me the task of writing an essay. Thanks for your insightful post. Academic essay writing can be tedious, but the essay is a critical piece of our cultural framework. It's an art form, like painting. Painting can be dull, realistic, profound, shocking, beautiful or ugly. It can inspire, motivate, anger or tease. An essay is as good as its author.

 

[nerp]

Shit, I just read a collection of essays by E. B. White. Wonderful book. They follow no conventional rules, often drift into tangents and can meander from reflections on his gardening and firewood to a funny conversation he had with a firefighter when a bird's nest clogged up his chimney and filled his house with smoke during his first fire in the fall.

Essays can be creative, entertaining and a joy to read. They just have to be crafted with care and passion, and, if you're lucky, a little talent and skill.

I think high school writing programs are shameful in the way they've beaten the art of writing down into blanks on a page, like math equations.

Read more.