Escalating fight between India and Italy UPDATE: Italy to return the Marines to India

[nextJin]

America only got away with it because the Iranians could not respond in a harsher manner. That is all.

Fair point.

The marines/cowards weren't on duty, and was working as Privately Contracted Armed Security Personnel (mercenaries).

http://www.idaratmaritime.com/wordpress/?p=386

But they are still citizens of Italy, their State Dept is obviously going to do what they need to do to protect them like any other country would.

 

[halik]

Sounds like a very emotional response, are you Indian by any chance?

I understand completely how the people feel and how that puts pressure on the government, but at the end of the day, Indian leadership will have to understand that they won't win anything by taking hostages, unless they want to be seen in the same international light as places like Iran.

I don't have a dog in the fight, I don't care about India or Italy, just looking at it from a rational outside perspective.

This. All I'm reading in Dari's posts are emotional knee-jerk response. Expel the ambassador and call it a day/deal with it in international courts.

 

[Dari]

Fair point.



But they are still citizens of Italy, their State Dept is obviously going to do what they need to do to protect them like any other country would.

They can provide counsel like every other diplomatic mission

This. All I'm reading in Dari's posts are emotional knee-jerk response. Expel the ambassador and call it a day/deal with it in international courts.

Maybe you and I live by different codes. If this was something more personal, let's say someone rapes and kills your daughter and they get off on a technicality or loophole, will your response be "Ah well, I did all I could and so did the prosecutor. Nothing more can be done here."? You wouldn't take matters into your own hand? I know I would. I've done it to people that have stalked women in my family; people that have stolen from my family, and people that have assaulted my loved ones. I would expect the same thing scaled up to the international level.

 

[nextJin]

They can provide counsel like every other diplomatic mission



Maybe you and I live by different codes. If this was something more personal, let's say someone rapes and kills your daughter and they get off on a technicality or loophole, will your response be "Ah well, I did all I could and so did the prosecutor. Nothing more can be done here."? You wouldn't take matters into your own hand? I know I would. I've done it to people that have stalked women in my family; people that have stolen from my family, and people that have assaulted my loved ones. I would expect the same thing scaled up to the international level.

In your case only you would be killed, or thrown in jail and you'd be wrong. On the international level tens of thousands could potentially die.

But hey if India wants to go all Jew on the Italians then so be it, not my fight. Millions could be killed in Africa (or India, France, Italy w/e) and I wouldn't care. I am only going to care when it effects me, just like your example. If you mess with my family your going to be dealing with a PO'ed individual with guns (omg gun nut!) and that is a risk I will gladly take. The same simply cannot be said when the actions of few would effect many.

 

[Dari]

In your case only you would be killed, or thrown in jail and you'd be wrong. On the international level tens of thousands could potentially die.

But hey if India wants to go all Jew on the Italians then so be it, not my fight. Millions could be killed in Africa (or India, France, Italy w/e) and I wouldn't care. I am only going to care when it effects me, just like your example. If you mess with my family your going to be dealing with a PO'ed individual with guns (omg gun nut!) and that is a risk I will gladly take. The same simply cannot be said when the actions of few would effect many.

Wrong is subjective but, like I said, I believe in personal responsibility so I'm perfectly fine with the consequences. In the case of India v. Italy, thousands will not be killed so the Indians should stick to their guns.

 

[Sonikku]

But I can't stick around to face murder charges, I have to go back home to vote.

 

[OutHouse]

Taking an embassador hostage is a very dangerous thing to do.

Yea look what happenend after our embasssdor was assissinated.

 

[Exterous]

He lied and must pay the price.

Did he? Did I miss somewhere where it was reported he intentionally lied? (Honest question - I may have.) I find it completely within the realm of possibility that he thought that they would return or had some assurances from the home office that they would return but then the home office lied/changed their mind

 

[Pulsar]

IDK, I was wondering the same thing. I can think of no good reason for a fishing boat getting close to a tanker. I can think of some pretty good reasons why you'd stay away.

It seems much more likely to me that the fishing boat approached the tanker. The article indicates the Indian fisherman shot was at the helm/wheel, meaning they were under way/moving.

Maritime rules dictate the smaller vessel give right of way to the larger vessel. I.e., the smaller vessel needs to stay away/get away.

Fern

It's a fishing boat. They go where the fish are, then they stay there.

I deal with them all the time. 90% of the time, they are drifting while fishing. Tankers are dead silent and can sneak up on you very quickly. Sort of like electric cars or golf carts.

Depending on how far away the shots were fired, you might not even hear them if you're running in nets or doing something else noisy. I've seen unaware sailboats run over by freighters.

It's a bad situation all the way around. India needs to put the thumbscrews to Italy in some way if they can.

 

[PokerGuy]

LOL @ India.

 

[JeepinEd]

And it was the Italian Ambassador that told the courts they would return. Why they trusted an Italian I will never know.

I sense a bit of bias here....

 

[werepossum]

I think India should abide by the GC. It was the Indian court that decided to allow the Italian marines to return. The matter appears to be out of the hands of the Italian ambassador and India should not hold him hostage.

The issue of jurisdiction is important and needs to be resolved.

Weird story. What are TWO Italian marines doing off the coast of India? Just two?

How did India capture/get control of the Italian marines?

It seems to me that, in general, countries are very resistant to having their on-duty military be subject to a foreign countries court system. I wouldn't expect Italy to be any different.

If the Italian marines were on duty and and acted without murderous intent, but instead killed the Indian fishermen by honest mistake, it seems to me the normal course would be for Italian government to pay compensation.

I'm curious to hear Italy's side of the story.

Fern

This. India would certainly be within its rights to eject the ambassador, but detaining him is an act of war.

 

[Dari]

This. India would certainly be within its rights to eject the ambassador, but detaining him is an act of war.

So? Is Italy going to attack? With who, Berlusconi and his whores or the mafia?

 

[werepossum]

So? Is Italy going to attack? With who, Berlusconi and his whores or the mafia?

Nice. So I suppose you'd be okay with the USA or Russia simply detaining Indian diplomats simply because we have the power to do so without India having any effective recourse?

 

[Dari]

Nice. So I suppose you'd be okay with the USA or Russia simply detaining Indian diplomats simply because we have the power to do so without India having any effective recourse?

I can understand the US and Russia doing that if India did that to their diplomats...

 

[Fern]

I can understand the US and Russia doing that if India did that to their diplomats...

For right or wrong, diplomats have immunity. IIRC, we've had a case here where a diplomat was drunk driving and killed someone. We could not arrest them and try them because they have diplomatic immunity.

I don't care if the Italian diplomat purposefully lied to the judge in a dishonest effort to get the marines out of there. He has immunity and so you don't hold him hostage.

India is handling this badly and breaking a very important protocol.

You seem to think that's OK in this case because you trust India's motives etc. Well, either you have diplomatic immunity or you don't. This is because we all send our diplomats to countries that have leaders with highly questionable motives and veracity etc. You start picking and choosing when diplomatic immunity is going to be honored and you open up a giant can worms.

Fern

 

[Fern]

It's a fishing boat. They go where the fish are, then they stay there.

I deal with them all the time. 90% of the time, they are drifting while fishing. Tankers are dead silent and can sneak up on you very quickly. Sort of like electric cars or golf carts.

Depending on how far away the shots were fired, you might not even hear them if you're running in nets or doing something else noisy. I've seen unaware sailboats run over by freighters.

It's a bad situation all the way around. India needs to put the thumbscrews to Italy in some way if they can.

I've sailed in the Atlantic, Caribbean and Mediterranean and no tanker, or any ship for that matter, has ever snuck up on me without notice.

Granted, if it's coming from behind (astern) and overtakes you it might get a little close without being noticed. But that scenario doesn't make any sense here. How could the fishermen has been misidentified as pirates if it was the tanker that snuck up on them?

I'd like to see more details. E.g., I would like to know if the tanker warned them (horn blast etc.). I strongly suspect the tanker did.

fern

 

[Dari]

For right or wrong, diplomats have immunity. IIRC, we've had a case here where a diplomat was drunk driving and killed someone. We could not arrest them and try them because they have diplomatic immunity.

I don't care if the Italian diplomat purposefully lied to the judge in a dishonest effort to get the marines out of there. He has immunity and so you don't hold him hostage.

India is handling this badly and breaking a very important protocol.

You seem to think that's OK in this case because you trust India's motives etc. Well, either you have diplomatic immunity or you don't. This is because we all send our diplomats to countries that have leaders with highly questionable motives and veracity etc. You start picking and choosing when diplomatic immunity is going to be honored and you open up a giant can worms.

Fern

Let's assume he deliberately chose to deceive the court. Then that's all the more reason to manhandle him and treat him like a criminal. But, for the sake of normality, I think it would be better for everyone if the ambassador just happened to come upon a mob who attacks and kills him. Was it a coincidence? Yeah, probably. Upon the return of his body to Italy, he'll get a full ceremonial guard funeral and all that. He'll be a hero, someone who sacrificed his life for Italy.

 

[cybrsage]

I've sailed in the Atlantic, Caribbean and Mediterranean and no tanker, or any ship for that matter, has ever snuck up on me without notice.

Granted, if it's coming from behind (astern) and overtakes you it might get a little close without being noticed. But that scenario doesn't make any sense here. How could the fishermen has been misidentified as pirates if it was the tanker that snuck up on them?

I'd like to see more details. E.g., I would like to know if the tanker warned them (horn blast etc.). I strongly suspect the tanker did.

fern

Agreed. Tankers have all the "sneaking up on you" ability as a running lawnmower does.

 

[unokitty]

Geneva Convention is a paper tiger.

Did the Chinese abide by the GC during the Korean War? Did the NVA abide by the GC during the War in Viet Nam? Did the North Koreans abide by the GC when they captured the Puebulo?

International Courts lack enforcement. Paper tigers as well.

Iran held the entire US diplomatic mission hostage. What happened to them? Nothing.

Libyan terrorists killed the American Ambassador. What happened to them? Nothing.

Two mercenaries that happen to be Italian Citizens killed two Indian Fishermen.

While it is true that Indian legal system may have been naive in letting them leave their country. By the same criteria, it may have been naive on Italy's part to think that India wouldn't retaliate.

IMHO this is up to Italy and India to work out.

India is the largest democracy in the world. I wish them well.

And while I also have empathy for Italy, they may find that basing international diplomacy upon lies and deception may not produce the results they desire.

Best of luck,
Uno

 

[cybrsage]

Yea look what happenend after our embasssdor was assissinated.

They didn't take him hostage.

 

[LunarRay]

It seems the Vienna Convention (as it applies to diplomatic relations) is pretty clear on the issue of an Ambassador and the performance of his duties which in this case is clear that he was...

He is not accused of committing the crime... Even if he was... he is inviolable and immune from the Indian authorities by treaty... They can expel him though.

I presume it is not a crime in India to advise the court that some future event would occur when a myriad of conditions may affect that outcome.

There are extradition treaties among many countries. I believe India and Italy have an extradition 'arrangement'. That is not a treaty but close. (should India seek to prosecute the shooters)

 

[davmat787]

I imagine Indian prison food and lack of wine is as close to hell on earth as it gets for a couple of Italians.

 

[Dari]

I imagine Indian prison food and lack of wine is as close to hell on earth as it gets for a couple of Italians.

They weren't in jail. They were in a hotel during this whole time...

 

[Vic Vega]

They weren't in jail. They were in a hotel during this whole time...

If you can't leave it's a prison.