Escalating fight between India and Italy UPDATE: Italy to return the Marines to India

[Dari]

Here's the gist of what happened.

1) Two Italian marines savagely murdered Indian fishermen fishing near India.

2) The two are arrested and put on trial.

3) The Indian court holding the Italian marines stupidly allowed the men to return to Italy to vote. Why they couldn't vote at the Italian Embassy in India's capital is beyond me. Anyway, the Italian ambassador promised the courts that the men would return.

4) Upon returning to Italy, the men are treated as conquering heroes by the corrupt Berlusconi.

5) Italy tells India that the men will not return after all. Oops!

6) Now, India is forbidding the Italian ambassador from leaving the country (he's the one that told the courts that the men would return).

Now, some will say that Article 41 of the Geneva Convention applies. But this ambassador decided to put himself between the courts and the killers. I think he should be held accountable for his actions.

link

India orders Italy ambassador Mancini not to leave
India's Supreme Court has ordered the Italian ambassador not to leave the country after Rome's refusal to return two marines charged with the murder of two fishermen in Kerala last year.
The court had allowed the marines to go home to vote in last month's elections.
Ambassador Daniele Mancini had personally assured the court the marines would return by 22 March.
On Wednesday, PM Manmohan Singh warned that "there will be consequences" unless Italy returned the marines.
In unusually strong language, the prime minister said that Italy's refusal to send back the marines was "unacceptable".
Rome's decision has come as a major embarrassment for the Indian government and opposition parties have been demanding their immediate return.
'Breach of undertaking'
On Thursday morning, the court headed by Chief Justice Altamas Kabir issued a notice to the Italian ambassador, restraining him from leaving without its permission.
The ambassador has been asked to respond to the notice by 18 March.
India's Attorney General GE Vahanvati told the judges that Rome's failure to return the two marines "is a breach of undertaking given to the highest court of the land and the government is extremely concerned about it".
In February, the Supreme Court allowed Massimilian Latorre and Salvatore Girone to go home to vote in the Italian elections. They were ordered to return within four weeks.
But on Monday, Italy informed India that the marines would not be coming back, prompting a diplomatic row.
The marines are accused of shooting the fishermen in February 2012. They said they mistook them for pirates.
Italy argues that because the case is now the subject of international maritime law, it has been decided that the pair will not return to India "on the expiration of the permission granted to them".
Rome says that it wants its nationals to be tried in Italy. Because the incident took place in international waters, Italy believes India has no jurisdiction in the case.

 

[cybrsage]

Taking an embassador hostage is a very dangerous thing to do.

 

[Fern]

I think India should abide by the GC. It was the Indian court that decided to allow the Italian marines to return. The matter appears to be out of the hands of the Italian ambassador and India should not hold him hostage.

The issue of jurisdiction is important and needs to be resolved.

Weird story. What are TWO Italian marines doing off the coast of India? Just two?

How did India capture/get control of the Italian marines?

It seems to me that, in general, countries are very resistant to having their on-duty military be subject to a foreign countries court system. I wouldn't expect Italy to be any different.

If the Italian marines were on duty and and acted without murderous intent, but instead killed the Indian fishermen by honest mistake, it seems to me the normal course would be for Italian government to pay compensation.

I'm curious to hear Italy's side of the story.

Fern

 

[DucatiMonster696]

I think India should abide by the GC. It was the Indian court that decided to allow the Italian marines to return. The matter appears to be out of the hands of the Italian ambassador and India should not hold him hostage.

The issue of jurisdiction is important and needs to be resolved.

Weird story. What are TWO Italian marines doing off the coast of India? Just two?

How did India capture/get control of the Italian marines?

It seems to me that, in general, countries are very resistant to having their on-duty military be subject to a foreign countries court system. I wouldn't expect Italy to be any different.

If the Italian marines were on duty and and acted without murderous intent, but instead killed the Indian fishermen by honest mistake, it seems to me the normal course would be for Italian government to pay compensation.

I'm curious to hear Italy's side of the story.

Fern

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17201787

Encounter with Italian tanker scars survivors

India and Italy are scrambling to defuse a diplomatic row over the deaths of two Indian fisherman mistaken for pirates by Italian marines guarding an oil tanker. Supriya Menon has been speaking to the fishermen's crewmates and family in the southern Indian state of Kerala.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17093224

The incident took place off the coast of the southern state of Kerala last Wednesday.

Italian officials said the Indian fishing boat had behaved aggressively and ignored warning shots.

They said they opened fire, mistaking the fishermen for pirates. India said the fishermen were unarmed.

 

[Fern]

After reading that BBC article I'm curious if the Indian fishing boat ignored warnings. To shoot somebody from a moving boat/ship on the high seas is no easy task from what I hear, I must assume the two boats/ships were rather close.

Fern

 

[Jaskalas]

Why the hell would they move that close in the first place?

Perhaps the oil tanker was the one moving towards them.

 

[Fern]

Why the hell would they move that close in the first place?

Perhaps the oil tanker was the one moving towards them.

IDK, I was wondering the same thing. I can think of no good reason for a fishing boat getting close to a tanker. I can think of some pretty good reasons why you'd stay away.

It seems much more likely to me that the fishing boat approached the tanker. The article indicates the Indian fisherman shot was at the helm/wheel, meaning they were under way/moving.

Maritime rules dictate the smaller vessel give right of way to the larger vessel. I.e., the smaller vessel needs to stay away/get away.

Fern

 

[iGas]

Return to Italy

On 22 February Girone and Latorre were granted a new permit allowing them to return to Italy, this time for four weeks, to vote at general election there. This permit was granted because of the written affidavit of Italy's sovereign representatives (ambassador of Italy in India with an email from the foreign minister and the prime minister) that the marines will be returned to face the indian courts.[128] [129] On 11 March the Italian Foreign Ministry stated that the two soldiers will not return to India to face their charges, as "an international dispute has sparked between Italy and India"; nevertheless, he stated he was '"open" to letting an international arbitrator assess the case'.[130] On 12 March Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh responded to Italy that it was unacceptable for Italy to refuse to send back marines.[131] On March 14 the Supreme Court of India restrained Italy's ambassador Daniele Mancini,from leaving India.[132] Daniele Mancini can be tried for contempt of court by the Supreme Court of India if the marines fail to return in time. [133]

Major disputes
Time and location of the shooting

According to Indian authorities, the firing occurred in the contiguous zone that is well within its jurisdiction.[27] The Indian Directorate General of Shipping stated: "It has been reported to this Directorate that the Italian flagged MV Enrica Lexie, resorted to firing on an Indian fishing vessel in position 09 20N 075 52E (heading 345 speed 14 kts) at 1700 Hrs on 15th February 2012. The vessel MV Enrica Lexie is carrying six Italian armed guards. The firing has reportedly resulted in the death of two Indian fishermen. The vessel was bound from Singapore to Egypt with a crew of 19 Indians. The Coast Guard intercepted the vessel and escorted her to Kochi for investigation. The vessel has anchored at Kochi on 15th February 2012 at 2300hrs (IST). The Principal Officer, MMD Kochi has been directed to conduct the preliminary inquiry into this incident resulting in the loss of life of two innocent Indian fishermen" [28][29] A statement by India's ministry of external affairs denied that the fishermen were armed.[30]

In an article[31] based on details obtained from undisclosed Italian Defense Ministry sources, journalist Fiorenza Sarzanini of the Corriere della Sera alleged that satellite tracking confirmed that the Italian tanker was “thirty-three miles off the south-west coast of India”, i.e. outside India's territorial waters and contiguous zone both, but within India's Exclusive Economic Zone when the incident occurred. The time of the shooting, at 11:30, according to Italian sources, also differs considerably from the version given by Indian Coast Guard, so that it could be conceivably that two distinct incidents had actually happened.[31] Moreover, the article alleges that the Italian Navy ordered the merchant navy crew and Italian Navy marines on board not to obey orders from Indian authorities.[32] The Italian Navy had reportedly objected to the Enrica Lexie moving into Indian waters and the disembarkation of its military personnel on board, reported Corriere della Sera website[33]

Italian Foreign Minister Giulio Terzi tweeted: "In no case should the ship have entered Indian waters (...) The polemics on responsibility I leave to others."[34]

The Italian ambassador to India stated that he wanted to underline that the Enrica Lexie had voluntarily proceeded to the port of Kochi.[12]
This seems to contradict both

documentary evidence submitted to court authorities by the Indian Coast Guard showing that the Enrica Lexie changed course only after being directed by the Indian authorities

and also

the information published in the Italian media stating that the Enrica Lexie initially received orders from the Italian Navy to leave the Indian EEZ and not change course towards Kochi.

Italian Foreign Minister Giulio Terzi, in an open letter to Italian newspaper Eco di Bergamo, alleged that "the entering of the Enrica Lexie into Indian waters has been the result of a subterfuge by the local police, who required the ship master to head for the port of Kochi in order to contribute to the identification of some suspected pirates."[1]. Neither the Indian Coast Guard nor other Indian authorities have issued an official confirmation to validate this claim. Evidence submitted in the form of the Indian Coast Guard Board Officer's report to the Kerala High Court contradicts Giulio Terzi's claim of subterfuge with a narrative stating instead that the vessel had to be forced to comply: "after the incident, the vessel traversed almost 3 hours and made good a distance of 39 NM from the original position, and only after interception by the Indian Coast Guard the vessel sent an e-mail to her owner at about 19.17 hours on 15.2.2012 reporting the incident; and therefore it was evident that the master had no intention of promptly reporting the incident to either the coastal state or the flag state, nor had he made any attempt to report the incident to the coastal authorities. The vessel sent out message regarding the incident, only after being forced by the Coast Guard to proceed and anchor at Kochi".

IMHO, it sounds as if the Italians were working as mercenaries/cowards (not real men/marines) and admit their guilt by not taking their fair chance in court with the help of the Italian embassy.

Massimiliano Latorre and Savior Betting leaving prison to meet his family (Photo)

 

[Mani]

This reflects pretty poorly on both countries. India for being too naive/ trusting and Italy for being complete douches. Fail all around.

 

[Dari]

I think India should abide by the GC. It was the Indian court that decided to allow the Italian marines to return. The matter appears to be out of the hands of the Italian ambassador and India should not hold him hostage.

The issue of jurisdiction is important and needs to be resolved.

Weird story. What are TWO Italian marines doing off the coast of India? Just two?

How did India capture/get control of the Italian marines?

It seems to me that, in general, countries are very resistant to having their on-duty military be subject to a foreign countries court system. I wouldn't expect Italy to be any different.

If the Italian marines were on duty and and acted without murderous intent, but instead killed the Indian fishermen by honest mistake, it seems to me the normal course would be for Italian government to pay compensation.

I'm curious to hear Italy's side of the story.

Fern

And it was the Italian Ambassador that told the courts they would return. Why they trusted an Italian I will never know.

 

[iGas]

And it was the Italian Ambassador that told the courts they would return. Why they trusted an Italian I will never know.

It is hard to imagine, but it is difficult to say no to an ambassador, and the prime minister.

Investigations

Indian investigations

Whilst the Kerala State Police is the principal agency tasked by the courts with the investigative process, other specialized agencies such as the Central Forensic Science Laboratory, Indian Coast Guard, Indian Navy, Indian Customs & Central Excise department, Central Industrial Security Force, Indian Mercantile Marine Department (MMD) and Trivandrum Medical College Hospital have assisted the police investigators with technical and logistical support.
Based on postmortem carried out on 16 February 2012, Kerala police registered a case of murder against the armed guards of the Enrica Lexie.[54] The pathologist's autopsy revealed that bullets of 5.56mm NATO bore were used for the killing of the two fishermen.[55] A trail of 15 bullets was found on the fishing boat, while one bullet each was found in the two dead bodies.[56]
Given the diplomatic issues and international media coverage, the Kerala Police formed a high level Special Investigative Team on 21 February to probe into the incident.[57]
On 24 February, the Indian Coast Guard released its report into the incident. As per the report, the ship Enrica Lexie did not have a Graduated Response Plan against piracy and violated Alert Embankment Guidelines issued by the International Maritime Organisation.[58]
On 2 March, Indian Mercantile Marine Department (MMD) investigators examining the ship documents and instrumentation data from the Enrica Lexie announced that the civilian merchant marine crew had violated maritime laws by failing to archive data from the ship's voyage data recorder (VDR).[59][60][61] According to the International Maritime Organization's SOLAS requirements, every vessel has to maintain VDR data. The VDR, which is equivalent to the black box in an aircraft, is supposed to record conversations in the captain's cabin, the vessel's position and happenings on board every 12 hours, after which it overwrites the data with fresh details unless archived manually. If there is an important event on board or in the vicinity, the VDR data is required to be archived by the captain of the ship. International maritime rules insists that VDR data should be locked by the captain at the time of the incident and surrendered before the investigation officials immediately after berthing the vessel at the nearest port, in this case in Kochi on 17 February.[62][63] Marine investigators use VDR data to identify command responsibility aboard seagoing vessels.
Italian investigations

Italian Prosecutor Elisabetta Ceniccola has opened an investigation in Rome against Massimiliano Latorre and Salvatore Girone of the San Marco Regiment attached to the Military Protection Department in accordance with Article 575 (homicide) of the Italian penal code in Rome."[64][65][66][67] Italian Deputy Foreign Minister Staffan De Mistura described the killing of the fishermen as accidental but insisted that Indian courts did not have jurisdiction over the incident.[68][69][70] He added : "Whatever be the judicial verdict in India, the marines would be tried for murder in Italy".[71]
On 10 May, prosecutors Cennicola and her colleague Francesco Scavo interviewed the other four marines after they had arrived back from India. They reportedly replied they didn't witness the shooting. The actual interrogations had been classified.[72]
On 3 January 2013, when Girone and Latorre were in Italy for a Christmas leave conceded by Indian court, and just before they had to go back to Kerala, Prosecutor Cennicola and her colleague Giancarlo Capaldo interviewed them for 5 hours.[73][74] Mr. Capaldo also stated to press that the international rogatory letter they had sent to their Indian counterparts has not yielded any results yet: no documentary material about investigation carried out in India had arrived to Rome so far.[74]

 

[TheVrolok]

Taking an embassador hostage is a very dangerous thing to do.

This

 

[K1052]

Arguably they should have declared the Italian ambassador persona non grata and expelled him from the country forthwith. This would have been compliant with international treaty law and an appropriate response for such an enormous breach of trust/etiquette.

Regardless of the merits of the charges he vouched for their return so he and the Italian state gets to deal with the consequences.

 

[Dari]

This

Fuck that. Hold him to the fire. India's courts and politicians have to answer to the people and letting him go would now mean they just lose everything. If they had a competent intelligence service then maybe they could bring back the marines. But they don't.

 

[Double Trouble]

Arguably they should have declared the Italian ambassador persona non grata and expelled him from the country forthwith. This would have been compliant with international treaty law and an appropriate response for such an enormous breach of trust/etiquette.

Regardless of the merits of the charges he vouched for their return so he and the Italian state gets to deal with the consequences.

Exactly. India chose to trust the ambassador, and he either double crossed them or was mislead himself. That's a lousy move by the Italians, but India needs to realize that they can't just start holding someone hostage against the geneva convention rules.

Frankly, it's embarrassing and puts India in a very poor light.

 

[Double Trouble]

Fuck that. Hold him to the fire. India's courts and politicians have to answer to the people and letting him go would now mean they just lose everything. If they had a competent intelligence service then maybe they could bring back the marines. But they don't.

They already screwed up by letting those guys leave. Doubling up on fail by holding someone hostage against the Geneva convention doesn't help anything, it just makes India look like some sort of third rate crappy country.

 

[iGas]

They already screwed up by letting those guys leave. Doubling up on fail by holding someone hostage against the Geneva convention doesn't help anything, it just makes India look like some sort of third rate crappy country.

India is a third rate crappy country, however Indians still are human hence we have to respect their lives and laws when we are in their country.

si fueris Rōmae, Rōmānō vīvitō mōre; si fueris alibī, vīvitō sicut ibi ("if you were in Rome, live in the Roman way; if you are elsewhere, live as they do there")

 

[nextJin]

I don't think any country is going to let it's military men and women stand trial in other nations courts. We sure as hell wouldn't, they will be tried in their courts and the families compensated.

If America can shoot down an Iranian airliner filled with women and children without reprocusions other than paying the families I'm sure the same will happen in this case.

However preventing a diplomat from leaving is rather absurd, this should be common nowadays. These things happen, if the situation were reversed I would "think" they would release them to face trial.

 

[Dari]

They already screwed up by letting those guys leave. Doubling up on fail by holding someone hostage against the Geneva convention doesn't help anything, it just makes India look like some sort of third rate crappy country.

Whether it's fail or not it does not matter. The ambassador crossed the Rubicon by getting involved legally and telling the courts the marines will return. He lied and must pay the price. If the Indians relent now they will let the world know that their people's lives are worth less than others and foreigners can come and do as they please.

And, let's be honest here, a law is only as good as the forces behind it. If the Italians cannot respect Indian law, why should Indians respect Italian/EU/International law? Fuck all that. Keep the beautiful being in the country and if he tries to leave kill him. Will it be shocking? Of course. But sometimes, shock treatment is what people need to wake them up and let everyone know that things have changed and some people won't be treated like 2nd class citizens.

 

[Dari]

I don't think any country is going to let it's military men and women stand trial in other nations courts. We sure as hell wouldn't, they will be tried in their courts and the families compensated.

If America can shoot down an Iranian airliner filled with women and children without reprocusions other than paying the families I'm sure the same will happen in this case.

However preventing a diplomat from leaving is rather absurd, this should be common nowadays. These things happen, if the situation were reversed I would "think" they would release them to face trial.

America only got away with it because the Iranians could not respond in a harsher manner. That is all.

 

[iGas]

I don't think any country is going to let it's military men and women stand trial in other nations courts. We sure as hell wouldn't, they will be tried in their courts and the families compensated.

If America can shoot down an Iranian airliner filled with women and children without reprocusions other than paying the families I'm sure the same will happen in this case.

However preventing a diplomat from leaving is rather absurd, this should be common nowadays. These things happen, if the situation were reversed I would "think" they would release them to face trial.

The marines/cowards weren't on duty, and was working as Privately Contracted Armed Security Personnel (mercenaries).

http://www.idaratmaritime.com/wordpress/?p=386

Criminal sanctions
If someone is killed or injured in the territorial waters of a country or in a port, the perpetrator of the killing may be subject to the criminal laws of that country. States are also likely to claim jurisdiction where their citizens are killed in unlawful circumstances in international waters; as India has done in the case of the killing of two Indian fishermen by the Italian naval guards, Latore Massimiliano and Salvatore Girone, who were onboard the MV Enrica Lexie in February 2012. Italy has claimed that the vessel was in international waters when the incident took place. Italy says the shooting took place in international waters outside the jurisdiction of Indian courts. India disputes this, saying the incident occurred in a “contiguous zone” where Indian law applies.[3] The two Italians face charges of murder if the Indian Supreme Court claims jurisdiction...

 

[Double Trouble]

India is a third rate crappy country, however Indians still are human hence have to respect their lives and laws when we are in their country.

si fueris Rōmae, Rōmānō vīvitō mōre; si fueris alibī, vīvitō sicut ibi ("if you were in Rome, live in the Roman way; if you are elsewhere, live as they do there")

I don't blame the people of India for being pissed, they have every right to be. The fact is though that their own government screwed up by letting these guys go, knowing that they had no way to get them back if the Italians decided to renege on the deal.

At this point India is just digging the hole deeper, they're compounding the screwup with an ever bigger screwup. There simply isn't any way they can 'win' at this point.

 

[Double Trouble]

Whether it's fail or not it does not matter. The ambassador crossed the Rubicon by getting involved legally and telling the courts the marines will return. He lied and must pay the price. If the Indians relent now they will let the world know that their people's lives are worth less than others and foreigners can come and do as they please.

And, let's be honest here, a law is only as good as the forces behind it. If the Italians cannot respect Indian law, why should Indians respect Italian/EU/International law? Fuck all that. Keep the beautiful being in the country and if he tries to leave kill him. Will it be shocking? Of course. But sometimes, shock treatment is what people need to wake them up and let everyone know that things have changed and some people won't be treated like 2nd class citizens.

Sounds like a very emotional response, are you Indian by any chance?

I understand completely how the people feel and how that puts pressure on the government, but at the end of the day, Indian leadership will have to understand that they won't win anything by taking hostages, unless they want to be seen in the same international light as places like Iran.

I don't have a dog in the fight, I don't care about India or Italy, just looking at it from a rational outside perspective.

 

[Dari]

Sounds like a very emotional response, are you Indian by any chance?

I understand completely how the people feel and how that puts pressure on the government, but at the end of the day, Indian leadership will have to understand that they won't win anything by taking hostages, unless they want to be seen in the same international light as places like Iran.

I don't have a dog in the fight, I don't care about India or Italy, just looking at it from a rational outside perspective.

I'm not Indian or of Indian descent. I just like people taking personal responsibility for their actions rather than hiding behind laws or titles. I mean, this diplomat is nothing more than a politician and I see politicians and soldiers as the same. If you're representing your country then prepare to take the good with the bad.

 

[Dari]

I don't blame the people of India for being pissed, they have every right to be. The fact is though that their own government screwed up by letting these guys go, knowing that they had no way to get them back if the Italians decided to renege on the deal.

At this point India is just digging the hole deeper, they're compounding the screwup with an ever bigger screwup. There simply isn't any way they can 'win' at this point.

IMHO, if there's no way they can win then they need to make sure this farce is never repeated. And they can do that by creating a new paradigm/reality. Sure, it'll hurt in the short run but letting others do as they please to your people is the worst thing a government can allow to happen. What is the point of the government then if the people are not secure in their own country and foreigners can kill them without consequence???