EQ Next what would you like in it?

[Ashenor]

Please be more like EQ 1 then 2.

Return to a more "Hard" MMO, don't just give loot out for being max level.

I know this discourages sales, and profits but one can dream.

I miss be top of the food chain in EQ 1 and cockblocking the server for 5 years and leaving others our scraps .

Long gone are the days of people apping to a top end raid guild and them getting told don't expect loot for 6 months and people lining up to get in.

Awakeing the sleeper because another guild had a chance at getting a sceptar of destruction.

Standing in the EC tunnel with your lvl 5 trade mule twinked out with gear max level toons never had a hope of getting.

Screenshots of mage pets equiping weapons that no one else on the server could get but we had to many.

Those were the times . To hell with the casuals!

 

[diesbudt]

Please be more like EQ 1 then 2.

Return to a more "Hard" MMO, don't just give loot out for being max level.

I know this discourages sales, and profits but one can dream.

I miss be top of the food chain in EQ 1 and cockblocking the server for 5 years and leaving others our scraps .

Long gone are the days of people apping to a top end raid guild and them getting told don't expect loot for 6 months and people lining up to get in.

Awakeing the sleeper because another guild had a chance at getting a sceptar of destruction.

Standing in the EC tunnel with your lvl 5 trade mule twinked out with gear max level toons never had a hope of getting.

Screenshots of mage pets equiping weapons that no one else on the server could get but we had to many.

Those were the times . To hell with the casuals!

You will never see an MMO again where only the very few can have access to the best stuff.

 

[thespyder]

Please be more like EQ 1 then 2.

Return to a more "Hard" MMO, don't just give loot out for being max level.

I know this discourages sales, and profits but one can dream.

I miss be top of the food chain in EQ 1 and cockblocking the server for 5 years and leaving others our scraps .

Long gone are the days of people apping to a top end raid guild and them getting told don't expect loot for 6 months and people lining up to get in.

Awakeing the sleeper because another guild had a chance at getting a sceptar of destruction.

Standing in the EC tunnel with your lvl 5 trade mule twinked out with gear max level toons never had a hope of getting.

Screenshots of mage pets equiping weapons that no one else on the server could get but we had to many.

Those were the times . To hell with the casuals!

Feeling like you need to overcompensate for some shortcomings there?

 

[diesbudt]

there is and can be innovation. There can be truly unique experiences for different classes. Take the 'Thief' games. here we had genuinely 'Stealthy' experience where you weren't jumping in and doing fistacuffs with everything you encountered. You didn't fight everything. And yet you could still get the gold and win.

Granted, wizards haven't had that kind of thing, "Yet". But I do expect that there is innovation out there that can do it.

I played DnD back in the PnP days. And you absolutely felt the strengths and weaknesses of each class. And could (at least I did with my DM) have a genuinely unique experience in an adventure.

However, with the advent of CRPGs, that has largely gone away. Admittedly. Just saying I think that the game developers need to stop trying to make all experiences 'The same'. Make uniquely Wizard adventures that you have to have a given spell or ability to even embark on. Make really good use of stealth action in a game such that a thief doesn't need to be 'Marginally as good in combat as a fighter' to actually feel like something more than a walking trap detector and key. It can be done.

and that is what I would like to see in EQ Next. Innovation that breaks out of the mold we are in where every single experience has to be (within degrees) identical to every other experience.

But can all that be done AND balanced? I know you are for not having each class balanced, but if overall contribution to a group is not balanced, what will end up happening is MANY more people will play the option that contributes more/is more powerful. Unbalancing the gameflow.

Also, having the need of specifics only 1 class can do, hinders the game experience. Because if a group was to lose one, they would have to find another or not play at all. Not a major complaint, but one that has stood the test of time.

These are issues restricting the innovation you desire, and it is less of what can be done by the programmars, but more how people play the game.

 

[Ashenor]

Feeling like you need to overcompensate for some shortcomings there?

Other then being the best?

If you are going to do something might as well do it well.

My favorite debate is casuals vs hardcore raiders.

In the end hardcore raiders spend much less time once everything is on farm while others flounder around.

There will never be anything like EQ back around. It worked well because there was a expansion every 8 months or so, the power guilds would move on, the lower guilds would be able to farm the last expansions content. The racing for named spawns was probably the most fun i had in a MMO.

So no short comings, was just the most fun i personally have had in a MMO and was part of.

There was more team work also, breaking plane of fear, then have a wipe at 2 am. People had to work in the morning but would stay up to clear and get back to peoples bodies. Most people have no idea what its like to have to go and get your corpse and loot back. Sucked but was great at the same time.

I formed more friendships in the first few years of EQ from helping people, then all the other MMO's combined i have played since then.

 

[thespyder]

But can all that be done AND balanced? I know you are for not having each class balanced, but if overall contribution to a group is not balanced, what will end up happening is MANY more people will play the option that contributes more/is more powerful. Unbalancing the gameflow.

Also, having the need of specifics only 1 class can do, hinders the game experience. Because if a group was to lose one, they would have to find another or not play at all. Not a major complaint, but one that has stood the test of time.

These are issues restricting the innovation you desire, and it is less of what can be done by the programmars, but more how people play the game.

I am not against balance "Per Say". merely that the method that is jammed into everyone's cranium in today's world is that Balance has to equate to 'The same'. it doesn't. And that is where I have a problem.

And yes, I think that the mage tower on that hill over there should REQUIRE a wizard to pass the wizard locks on it's doors. And that can be one of MANY adventure options. if you don't have a wizard of sufficient power to open up the locks, adventure somewhere else. That shouldn't be an issue. Same with rogues and stealthy type adventures. There should be places and quests where, if you are heavily encumbered with Metal armor, that you will get creamed every time. But that a sneak-thief might slip by undetected and be able to complete the quest.

Or that a holy relic quest requires someone of faith to overcome some challenges that no wizard or warrior could possibly defeat.

but a lot of developers fall into the trap that you paint. That Every character should be able to compete in Every adventure and defeat Every challenge. That is not What Gary Gygax and Frank Mentzer (and the rest) envisioned.

Balanced doesn't need to be 'The same'. Balanced can mean really good at ranged combat, but kind of a deader in hand to hand. it can mean being able to swim a moat and climb the castle wall instead of having to storm the front gates. It could mean facing demons, that are immune to magic, with cold iron since that is the only thing that touches them.

Just saying that innovation is largely ignored because everyone wants everyone to have and be the exact same experience in the game.

Long ago there was an endless dungeon adventure for DnD. What it was turned out to be endless corridors leading to randomly assigned rooms. Fun for a while, but what I wanted was "You start out in a room with four doors. One is locked, one is wizard trapped, one leads to a corridor full of monsters and one is invisible to the naked eye. Use your individual abilities to decide which door you pass through." And let the adventure unfold. And sure, you take your party with you. But the further you go along a certain path, the more a given set of skills excels and the rest falter. but in the end there are multiple paths to victory.

 

[diesbudt]

I am not against balance "Per Say". merely that the method that is jammed into everyone's cranium in today's world is that Balance has to equate to 'The same'. it doesn't. And that is where I have a problem.

And yes, I think that the mage tower on that hill over there should REQUIRE a wizard to pass the wizard locks on it's doors. And that can be one of MANY adventure options. if you don't have a wizard of sufficient power to open up the locks, adventure somewhere else. That shouldn't be an issue. Same with rogues and stealthy type adventures. There should be places and quests where, if you are heavily encumbered with Metal armor, that you will get creamed every time. But that a sneak-thief might slip by undetected and be able to complete the quest.

Or that a holy relic quest requires someone of faith to overcome some challenges that no wizard or warrior could possibly defeat.

but a lot of developers fall into the trap that you paint. That Every character should be able to compete in Every adventure and defeat Every challenge. That is not What Gary Gygax and Frank Mentzer (and the rest) envisioned.

Balanced doesn't need to be 'The same'. Balanced can mean really good at ranged combat, but kind of a deader in hand to hand. it can mean being able to swim a moat and climb the castle wall instead of having to storm the front gates. It could mean facing demons, that are immune to magic, with cold iron since that is the only thing that touches them.

Just saying that innovation is largely ignored because everyone wants everyone to have and be the exact same experience in the game.

Long ago there was an endless dungeon adventure for DnD. What it was turned out to be endless corridors leading to randomly assigned rooms. Fun for a while, but what I wanted was "You start out in a room with four doors. One is locked, one is wizard trapped, one leads to a corridor full of monsters and one is invisible to the naked eye. Use your individual abilities to decide which door you pass through." And let the adventure unfold. And sure, you take your party with you. But the further you go along a certain path, the more a given set of skills excels and the rest falter. but in the end there are multiple paths to victory.

Not exactly what I was saying. It is great and all for each class to have the ability to complete objectives differently. However when group play is entered. (which is a must with the terms MMO in it) What is the point of a rogue stealthing over the wall and swimming the moat if the rest of the party must fight forward because they cannot?

Or how is it fair a group who has their wizard sick, cannot open the door for them to finish the dungeon they started the night previously?

In a D3 like game (not saying hack and slash RPG) but in single player where people can join, this would work much easier than an MMO.

Because when it comes to combat, a rogue that can stealth through things is useless if he cannot fight at the same as the best fighter. (and so on)

And then there is the limitation of content. Only so much can be added, if there is too much unique stuff per class, game gets too big, yet stays small at the same time.

And to be fair, DnD is very different than MMORPGs. In the sense that one is turn based and other is "RT". So having such differences in classes is much easier to balance through out of combat abilities, as strategy can be better utilized through the class differences.

And I am not saying what you propose couldnt be fun, I just don't see it being worth a companies time if it will not attract both hardcore and casuals alike. Especially since casuals pay the bill more or less.

 

[thespyder]

Not exactly what I was saying. It is great and all for each class to have the ability to complete objectives differently. However when group play is entered. (which is a must with the terms MMO in it) What is the point of a rogue stealthing over the wall and swimming the moat if the rest of the party must fight forward because they cannot?

Or how is it fair a group who has their wizard sick, cannot open the door for them to finish the dungeon they started the night previously?

In a D3 like game (not saying hack and slash RPG) but in single player where people can join, this would work much easier than an MMO.

Because when it comes to combat, a rogue that can stealth through things is useless if he cannot fight at the same as the best fighter. (and so on)

And then there is the limitation of content. Only so much can be added, if there is too much unique stuff per class, game gets too big, yet stays small at the same time.

And to be fair, DnD is very different than MMORPGs. In the sense that one is turn based and other is "RT". So having such differences in classes is much easier to balance through out of combat abilities, as strategy can be better utilized through the class differences.

And I am not saying what you propose couldnt be fun, I just don't see it being worth a companies time if it will not attract both hardcore and casuals alike. Especially since casuals pay the bill more or less.

You are not thinking it through.

In the Rogue/moat situation, the Rogue sneaks into the castle and 'Opens the back door' allowing the party to enter. In the Wizard tower, The wizard may be the one opening the portals and reading/deciphering the keys to solve the problem, but he/she still has their party to aid them.

And who is to say that a "Rogue" specific quest needs to be taken on solo. Three or four rogues can work together. Or maybe four wizards are necessary to make the wizards triangle to open the portal.

And if the 'Key' character is not available, how is that any different from "Not being high enough level" or "not having enough firepower" to take on the challenge? The scenarios you describe as challenges already exist. And there presence or absence doesn't enhance or detract from what I am saying. You don't have a rogue? Don't do the burglary quest. You don't have a cleric, don't seek the holy grail. But none of this precludes adventures that you can do, or the necessity to group up with appropriate companions. And the types of adventures I describe wouldn't necessarily be the only adventures out there. They are special side quests. the main stuff is/can still be more general (but hopefully not more generic).

 

[diesbudt]

You are not thinking it through.

In the Rogue/moat situation, the Rogue sneaks into the castle and 'Opens the back door' allowing the party to enter. In the Wizard tower, The wizard may be the one opening the portals and reading/deciphering the keys to solve the problem, but he/she still has their party to aid them.

And who is to say that a "Rogue" specific quest needs to be taken on solo. Three or four rogues can work together. Or maybe four wizards are necessary to make the wizards triangle to open the portal.

And if the 'Key' character is not available, how is that any different from "Not being high enough level" or "not having enough firepower" to take on the challenge? The scenarios you describe as challenges already exist. And there presence or absence doesn't enhance or detract from what I am saying. You don't have a rogue? Don't do the burglary quest. You don't have a cleric, don't seek the holy grail. But none of this precludes adventures that you can do, or the necessity to group up with appropriate companions. And the types of adventures I describe wouldn't necessarily be the only adventures out there. They are special side quests. the main stuff is/can still be more general (but hopefully not more generic).

Right, but then you are basically making it so that there exists a sub-level in the "holy trinity".

To do X, Y, Z quests: (8 man group) You need a tank, healerx2, dpsx3, lockpicker/stealther, wizardy caster/magic attuned class. basically no longer a trinity but a holy Pentagnity. This will force people to play what is best for their friends/what is needed and not what they find fun (which 9/10 that is the strongest class for people under the age of 16). Turning people off from playing.

And since those 2 will not be as powerful as the 3 dps (using generically dps for strong damage dealers) but are required to bring along, you are now creating the need of a larger "need base" which has been an issue in the past few years. With not "enough tanks and healers" in other MMOs, to now they will struggle to find everything. Making group play requiring spending much more time hunting one down in some universal channel turning players off having to wait as long.

In concept your idea works. In practicallity when you add in the community that makes up these games and what will eventually decide what will/will not be "successful" these will be hinderances.

And therefore, not be worth the innovation.

 

[TheKub]

So, leveling up one wizard is the same as leveling up another warrior, or rogue or cleric or whatever.

Things have to be balanced, otherwise you will have a server 90% full of class X because its better than all the other classes.

 

[thespyder]

Right, but then you are basically making it so that there exists a sub-level in the "holy trinity".

To do X, Y, Z quests: (8 man group) You need a tank, healerx2, dpsx3, lockpicker/stealther, wizardy caster/magic attuned class. basically no longer a trinity but a holy Pentagnity. This will force people to play what is best for their friends/what is needed and not what they find fun (which 9/10 that is the strongest class for people under the age of 16). Turning people off from playing.

And since those 2 will not be as powerful as the 3 dps (using generically dps for strong damage dealers) but are required to bring along, you are now creating the need of a larger "need base" which has been an issue in the past few years. With not "enough tanks and healers" in other MMOs, to now they will struggle to find everything. Making group play requiring spending much more time hunting one down in some universal channel turning players off having to wait as long.

In concept your idea works. In practicallity when you add in the community that makes up these games and what will eventually decide what will/will not be "successful" these will be hinderances.

And therefore, not be worth the innovation.

Again, you aren't getting it.

In the first place, people will play what is fun or they will stop playing because they aren't Having fun. It's that simple.

But what you really aren't getting is that having quests and things to do of the nature that I describe doesn't preclude the stuff that already exists. So inclusion doesn't break anything. It only adds content, and much needed content at that.

And you are falling back into the "Every player needs to be able to do everything and go everywhere in equal measure." which breeds "Balance = same". Only it doesn't and doesn't need to.

And then there is also the DPS that you mention. This is seen as the holy grail of games of this nature. And 100% precludes games like Thief, which was massively fun and at least moderately successful. Tying to DPS for every character means tying to Combat ONLY. Give the players a choice. Give them a chance to excel and achieve in the same measure and degree without combat and they will. Give them other things to do besides JUST straight on Combat and DPS becomes less important. Stealth action is a genre into itself and so is a popular alternative. So I am sure would spell craft. And it doesn't need to be just the mainstays of RPGS today (Wizard, rogue, Fighter, Cleric). There are as many ideas and possibilities as there are character ideas. Stop trying to pigeon hole things to fit a mold.

but in the end, it does come down to the people who make these types of games. they are programmed to believe that everything needs to balance out to exactly the same. Every class at every level needs to have a common DPS. And so Innovation dies. Add to that the fact that they are playing to the lowest common denominator and innovation is truly dead. That is why TOR plays so much like WoW. That is why City of Heroes plays very similar. And all of the rest. Not because they HAVE to be that way, but because people equate balance with Same. They aren't.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I get it spyder, everyone should have a cool place in the game. Its supposed to be about groups that work together not one man armies. I'm sure it will have VoIP like planetside, I believe it has a area feature.

 

[shortylickens]

Boobs.
Lots of lots of boobs.
Totally serious.

 

[thespyder]

Boobs.
Lots of lots of boobs.
Totally serious.

Um, aren't there enough boobs just in this forum?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Shorts right I remember reading that the head character model programmer demanded big boobs for a high fantasy fame.

 

[shortylickens]

Rendered boobs that bounce realistically.

I PROMISE you they will get record sales if it has good boobs.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Please be more like EQ 1 then 2.

Return to a more "Hard" MMO, don't just give loot out for being max level.

I know this discourages sales, and profits but one can dream.

I miss be top of the food chain in EQ 1 and cockblocking the server for 5 years and leaving others our scraps .

Long gone are the days of people apping to a top end raid guild and them getting told don't expect loot for 6 months and people lining up to get in.

Awakeing the sleeper because another guild had a chance at getting a sceptar of destruction.

Standing in the EC tunnel with your lvl 5 trade mule twinked out with gear max level toons never had a hope of getting.

Screenshots of mage pets equiping weapons that no one else on the server could get but we had to many.

Those were the times . To hell with the casuals!

All of this. You should have to raid and work together with your guild to get raid loot. I mean, 6 months with no loot is terrible, but I can handle a month or two. Which reminds me, the Firiona Vie all tradeable gear system is best. And as a 5 year vet of that server, no, you don't have noobs and ebayers ruining the game because they all have raid gear but don't know how to play.

 

[thespyder]

I think that these two lines speak volumes to why your attitude will not play a part in EQ Next:

I know this discourages sales, and profits but one can dream.


To hell with the casuals!

Profits are not made on or from the hard core among us. They are made almost exclusively from the casual market. And the developers design around the casual gamer. And market to them. Understand that for every hard core gamer out there, there are hundreds or thousands of casual gamers to market. We don't even make a dent in their bottom line. Which more or less explains why we always sit around and grouse about how things 'Should have been'. It isn't ever going to be because we are no longer the demographic.

 

[Hacp]

Again, you aren't getting it.

In the first place, people will play what is fun or they will stop playing because they aren't Having fun. It's that simple.

But what you really aren't getting is that having quests and things to do of the nature that I describe doesn't preclude the stuff that already exists. So inclusion doesn't break anything. It only adds content, and much needed content at that.

And you are falling back into the "Every player needs to be able to do everything and go everywhere in equal measure." which breeds "Balance = same". Only it doesn't and doesn't need to.

And then there is also the DPS that you mention. This is seen as the holy grail of games of this nature. And 100% precludes games like Thief, which was massively fun and at least moderately successful. Tying to DPS for every character means tying to Combat ONLY. Give the players a choice. Give them a chance to excel and achieve in the same measure and degree without combat and they will. Give them other things to do besides JUST straight on Combat and DPS becomes less important. Stealth action is a genre into itself and so is a popular alternative. So I am sure would spell craft. And it doesn't need to be just the mainstays of RPGS today (Wizard, rogue, Fighter, Cleric). There are as many ideas and possibilities as there are character ideas. Stop trying to pigeon hole things to fit a mold.

but in the end, it does come down to the people who make these types of games. they are programmed to believe that everything needs to balance out to exactly the same. Every class at every level needs to have a common DPS. And so Innovation dies. Add to that the fact that they are playing to the lowest common denominator and innovation is truly dead. That is why TOR plays so much like WoW. That is why City of Heroes plays very similar. And all of the rest. Not because they HAVE to be that way, but because people equate balance with Same. They aren't.

I totally agree with your mentality. The problem with todays games is that the problem solving in them has been taken away in the name of balance. These days, the game designer or developer solves all your problems and you just play the RPG as an action game. Not fun at all.

 

[waggy]

I totally agree with your mentality. The problem with todays games is that the problem solving in them has been taken away in the name of balance. These days, the game designer or developer solves all your problems and you just play the RPG as an action game. Not fun at all.

yeah pretty much.

EQ1 did a lot of things right. but did a ton wrong. the penalty for dieing? fuck that. when you could die from a train or lag it sucked. having a weeks worth of exp taken away with a death was insane. then corpse runs? those were good bad but damn they sucked

One thing EQ rocked was the Random shit. i remember having weird stuff happen around holiday's and just for the fuck of it.

 

[diesbudt]

Again, you aren't getting it.

In the first place, people will play what is fun or they will stop playing because they aren't Having fun. It's that simple.

This is my point, people will not enjoy a game they cannot feed their internet Ego, by being the "best" (normally at dps) or whatever job they do. So if they can do nifty things outside combat like scalling walls, yet cant do shit for damage, many people will be turned off playing those classes, forcing many more of Class X in the system imbalancing the game. A huge flaw in any game. This is why classes need balance, if not people always float over to the "best"

But what you really aren't getting is that having quests and things to do of the nature that I describe doesn't preclude the stuff that already exists. So inclusion doesn't break anything. It only adds content, and much needed content at that.

Again, you are not getting that so much content on release is already there. For them to add extra stuff that will be class based, some content must be removed. Otherwise the game gets too big on release and would take too much longer on working the content in, because of the nature of game-making time.

Which means all this "extra content" takes away from the overall content in size, so even though the game feels more unique, it has actually shrunk in return. Remedy of this is to fast release expansions. But that isn't wise for an untested game. Why not just play a single player game if content will be pushed just for single people/classes?

And you are falling back into the "Every player needs to be able to do everything and go everywhere in equal measure." which breeds "Balance = same". Only it doesn't and doesn't need to.

That is only because the playbase will always drift over to what is best. They always have. The class representation numbers on WoW each 3 months shows it quite often. Most of early cataclysm Shaman healers sucked because of horrible balance, they practically dissappeared.

Plus if I was to kill this general in some fort, would I take the rogue who climbed a wall, opened a door for us and does blah for damage. Or take another Fighter/Warrior/Facesmasher, and take the "hard way in" killing enemies reaching the general and healing befofre combat to make the General fight easier with the better damage dealers? MMORPGS have all become about the battle. Not the puzzles. This isn't paper DnD or single player games in which puzzles were plenty and hard where class difference could shine. Even MMO DnD doesn't do puzzles. That just doesn't go over well with most players in the genre. (casuals)

And then there is also the DPS that you mention. This is seen as the holy grail of games of this nature. And 100% precludes games like Thief, which was massively fun and at least moderately successful. Tying to DPS for every character means tying to Combat ONLY. Give the players a choice. Give them a chance to excel and achieve in the same measure and degree without combat and they will. Give them other things to do besides JUST straight on Combat and DPS becomes less important. Stealth action is a genre into itself and so is a popular alternative. So I am sure would spell craft. And it doesn't need to be just the mainstays of RPGS today (Wizard, rogue, Fighter, Cleric). There are as many ideas and possibilities as there are character ideas. Stop trying to pigeon hole things to fit a mold.

but in the end, it does come down to the people who make these types of games. they are programmed to believe that everything needs to balance out to exactly the same. Every class at every level needs to have a common DPS. And so Innovation dies. Add to that the fact that they are playing to the lowest common denominator and innovation is truly dead. That is why TOR plays so much like WoW. That is why City of Heroes plays very similar. And all of the rest. Not because they HAVE to be that way, but because people equate balance with Same. They aren't.

Again, as I said MMORPGs are successful "today" because they tie to combat only, and most people find that fun. The only way to make classes unique and enjoyable to the majority playerbase (casuals) is to give them unique roles in combat, which however majority of MMOs already are... Warriors don't shoot fire, Mages don't use 2-h swords, Rangers use bows and such but don't do magic. However doing this A) Disrupts balance, making it hard to balance. Look at WOTLK DK + Hpal 2v2 arean team. Basically unstoppable. B) Giving classes unique jobs in a fight (sneaking, picking, magic barriers, knowledge prior to combat) would cause great issue inside the Holy trinity universe, making group gathering too hard, when just tank, healer, dps is hard enough and relies on too many people.

I am not saying your idea wont be fun (because it definitely could be), I am not saying your idea wouldn't work (especially in a D3/single-player game), I am saying that the idea of class uniqueness does not fit in the MMORPG genre today. Maybe if we went back 10-12 years just after the release of EQ and DoAC, and Asheron's Call we may have been able to get people interested in this. But Because of WoW, the genre has morphed into a pure combat related game, and the majority of the community will find no fun in trying to drastically change that. Especially since most of them are casuals and/or children that just want to play, kill things and feel good about it. (Psycologically it makes a person feel better feeling "strong" in a virtual world. Game psycology books have shown lots of evidence of this recently) Not try and play using class restrictions and puzzles being a strong point of a game.

 

[brandonb]

yeah pretty much.

EQ1 did a lot of things right. but did a ton wrong. the penalty for dieing? fuck that. when you could die from a train or lag it sucked. having a weeks worth of exp taken away with a death was insane. then corpse runs? those were good bad but damn they sucked

One thing EQ rocked was the Random shit. i remember having weird stuff happen around holiday's and just for the fuck of it.

I have the opposite opinion of you. I want death penalties and corpse runs.

It's what made the game fun. There was a risk, and a penalty for biting off more than you could chew. When you had the right people and the right friends, you could do some pretty awesome stuff back in the day that you'd never get with the PUG groups. I remember crawling through Plane of Mischief with a group of friends getting to the chessboard (which took hours back in those days) and doing quests and getting gear nobody else ever had.

Also you never lost a weeks worth of EXP if you had a cleric friend. Hence, it forced you to cooperate with people and make friends. If you were a solor quad kiting in an obscure zone and never communicated with anybody. Sure, a train or lag would be your nemesis. But that was never the point or the way the game was designed. It was designed to play with others.

Shocker! It's an MMO.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Back on point simplified version of my rant. I want a good looking challenging game that's fun to play with friend or random people, I want easy communication, risks/rewards and a bunch of random junk with adventures that are exciting.

 

[thespyder]

This is my point, people will not enjoy a game they cannot feed their internet Ego, by being the "best" (normally at dps) or whatever job they do. So if they can do nifty things outside combat like scalling walls, yet cant do shit for damage, many people will be turned off playing those classes, forcing many more of Class X in the system imbalancing the game. A huge flaw in any game. This is why classes need balance, if not people always float over to the "best"

the bolded is my point. And no one is saying gimp any class. Absolutely allow Wizards to do massive damage, from range. Fighters, massive damage close up. Rogues massive damage from surprise, etc.... Just give them more than simply DPS to compare their uniqueness.

Again, you are not getting that so much content on release is already there. For them to add extra stuff that will be class based, some content must be removed. Otherwise the game gets too big on release and would take too much longer on working the content in, because of the nature of game-making time.

I think you are significantly over estimating (a) how much content is put in at launch and (b) how much additional content I am talking about and (c) how much 'Main stream' content would need to be removed to accommodate it. This is the kind of typical sloppy thinking that developers fall back on to justify making sub-par games.

Which means all this "extra content" takes away from the overall content in size, so even though the game feels more unique, it has actually shrunk in return. Remedy of this is to fast release expansions. But that isn't wise for an untested game. Why not just play a single player game if content will be pushed just for single people/classes?

I stopped playing MMOs a long time ago precisely because of this. The fact that sloppy and sub-par games were being banged out in the name of profits. I in no way believe that the limitations of hardware or programing resources limit the ability for creation of a great game (And if you do, I feel sorry for you). It is Corporate types trying to 'Simplify' things down into the most basic formula possible so as to make the most money with no thought towards originality or innovation. And attitudes like yours propagate that thinking.

That is only because the playbase will always drift over to what is best. They always have. The class representation numbers on WoW each 3 months shows it quite often. Most of early cataclysm Shaman healers sucked because of horrible balance, they practically dissappeared.

As it stands now, I admit that 'Best' is DPS. However, if you take DPS out of the equation and add in actual variety, 'Best' becomes highly subjective. Then you wouldn't have the kinds of fluctuation you describe. or if you did it would be people actually trying out the custom content. not people gravitating towards the highest DPS.

Plus if I was to kill this general in some fort, would I take the rogue who climbed a wall, opened a door for us and does blah for damage. Or take another Fighter/Warrior/Facesmasher, and take the "hard way in" killing enemies reaching the general and healing befofre combat to make the General fight easier with the better damage dealers? MMORPGS have all become about the battle. Not the puzzles. This isn't paper DnD or single player games in which puzzles were plenty and hard where class difference could shine. Even MMO DnD doesn't do puzzles. That just doesn't go over well with most players in the genre. (casuals)

this really comes down to how it is done. Well thought out and interesting side quests and alternate ways of accomplishing things would draw players and interest. Take a look at Baldur's gate and all of the different ways to complete the game. People try 'Fastest route', 'Least damage' route, 'highest experience' route, 'Evil party' route, 'Good party' route, combinations of companions, etc.. and the list goes on. I have every suspicion that the same could be said about MMOs if there was variability of content and not just DPS.

Again, as I said MMORPGs are successful "today" because they tie to combat only, and most people find that fun. The only way to make classes unique and enjoyable to the majority playerbase (casuals) is to give them unique roles in combat, which however majority of MMOs already are... Warriors don't shoot fire, Mages don't use 2-h swords, Rangers use bows and such but don't do magic. However doing this A) Disrupts balance, making it hard to balance. Look at WOTLK DK + Hpal 2v2 arean team. Basically unstoppable. B) Giving classes unique jobs in a fight (sneaking, picking, magic barriers, knowledge prior to combat) would cause great issue inside the Holy trinity universe, making group gathering too hard, when just tank, healer, dps is hard enough and relies on too many people.

MMOs are successful today due to DPS because it is the only game in town, NOT because it is the best formula. And what you call "unique roles in combat" are hardly that. There may be slight variations, but nothing more. And you disregard the unique and enjoyable playable content that could be had allowing players to really have a unique experience with their chosen profession. I am not saying gimp X or Y character class. I am saying give them more than simply a paint job to differentiate them from everyone else. And absolutely allow Wizards to do massive damage, from range. Fighters, massive damage close up. Rogues massive damage from surprise, etc.... Just give them more than simply DPS to compare their uniqueness.

I am not saying your idea wont be fun (because it definitely could be), I am not saying your idea wouldn't work (especially in a D3/single-player game), I am saying that the idea of class uniqueness does not fit in the MMORPG genre today. Maybe if we went back 10-12 years just after the release of EQ and DoAC, and Asheron's Call we may have been able to get people interested in this. But Because of WoW, the genre has morphed into a pure combat related game, and the majority of the community will find no fun in trying to drastically change that. Especially since most of them are casuals and/or children that just want to play, kill things and feel good about it. (Psycologically it makes a person feel better feeling "strong" in a virtual world. Game psycology books have shown lots of evidence of this recently) Not try and play using class restrictions and puzzles being a strong point of a game.

Class uniqueness doesn't fit into you vision of an MMO. Nor apparently in the vision of the developers. That in no way means that it wouldn't add something to the genre. Who would have thought that the original Diablo would have done so well. it was taking elements from various previous games and putting them together in a slightly different manner. Yet 12-15 years later it is one of the highest praised games out there. Same with Baldur's gate. Just because 'its always been that way' doesn't mean that a genre can't stand a kick in the pants every once in a while. And the more people hide behind paradigms, the greater the chance that someone else will come along and steal their market share because they were willing to take a risk on something new.

The thread is 'EQ Next, what would you like in it'. I would like to see class specific content and a departure from samey DPS dependence. You may not think it would add anything. that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I think it would make the game 10x better than it would be without it.

And also, MMOs do work 'BEST' in large raid parties. That doesn't mean that it is and has to be a one trick pony. There are plenty of MMO players that solo. There are even more that do specialized groups towards one class or another. Put back the RPG in MMORPG is all I am saying. (BTW, MMO is a bastardization of MMORPG in case you weren't aware of that).

 

[waggy]

I have the opposite opinion of you. I want death penalties and corpse runs.

It's what made the game fun. There was a risk, and a penalty for biting off more than you could chew. When you had the right people and the right friends, you could do some pretty awesome stuff back in the day that you'd never get with the PUG groups. I remember crawling through Plane of Mischief with a group of friends getting to the chessboard (which took hours back in those days) and doing quests and getting gear nobody else ever had.

Also you never lost a weeks worth of EXP if you had a cleric friend. Hence, it forced you to cooperate with people and make friends. If you were a solor quad kiting in an obscure zone and never communicated with anybody. Sure, a train or lag would be your nemesis. But that was never the point or the way the game was designed. It was designed to play with others.

Shocker! It's an MMO.

hard quest or hard dungeons is one thing. having to lose a weeks worth of experience due to some idiotic person or a troll is another.

I'm all for having a few really fucking elite level dungeons with gear that outlcasses everything else. My big complaint about WoW now is dungeon finder (wich i think is good) gear looks and is named the same as heroic. Fuck that.

while people should be able to clear the content don't give them teh same look and named gear.

I have no issues with "casual" gamers. they pay the money and should be able to see end game. I do think the gear shouldn't be amazing either. Sure RF gear sucks compared to Heroic. I do think heroic gear should look better where RF should look like heroic 5 man gear and hell NO titles.