enterprise was better than tos and most of tng

[mrjminer]

Pretty much all the Wesley episodes were rough. The space Native Americans one was the icing on the cake, and that was from one of the later seasons.

Wil Wheaton has redeemed himself as a nerd elder statesman / beer aficionado. I imagine he had a rough couple of years though.

IIRC that episode was actually one of the last 10 in the final season. I'd have to look it up to be sure though. I thought the way they took him out like that was an injustice, but at least he got to be a traveler (I think that's what it was called).

I don't know why people hated Wesley so much on the show. Yea, he knew a lot of shit about engineering, but I don't think it really was too far out of the ballpark for him considering his father and mother were both in Starfleet, and he was around ships and their crew a ton. Poor Wil Wheaton got nerdraged out of the show! Weird how that would happen, but Jonathan Brandis on seaQuest was rage-free.

Anyways, I haven't seen all of Enterprise, but someone mentioned I should finish watching it through since I only got through S1 then couldn't take it anymore.

DS9 > TNG > TOS > Voyager > Enterprise

Voyager will easily be moved to last place if I ever get around to watching the rest of Enterprise, though; I wouldn't consider it fair to put it above Voyager since I never watched it through.

Captains:

Picard = Sisko (shaved head) > Kirk > Sisko (unshaved head) > Archer > Janeway

I feel comfortable putting Janeway in last place. Archer may be able to surpass the unshaved head Sisko if/when I finish.

 

[mmntech]

People hate Wesley because he was a Mary Sue. They're idealized characters usually serving as an author insert. It's long been speculated that Wesley Crusher was actually Gene Roddenberry putting himself in the story.

Generally Mary Sues are usually characters who are too perfect for the universe they are a part of. Usually possessing abilities or privileges way beyond what is considered normal for the world they inhabit. They tend to be fairly one dimensional as well.

It comes full circle back to my original comment that the TNG writers didn't know how to write for child and young adult characters. Especially in those early seasons.

 

[Paratus]

I haven't seen any of Enterprise but from what little I know of it I'd be really shocked if I liked it less than TOS or more than TNG..

TOS sucks every sort of dick in every way possible. It's awful.

Said no one ever.

 

[RampantAndroid]

The problem was they changed the timeline, among other things. That put many fans off right away. Furthermore, Baccula was a poor choice IMO...and Trip and the security guys just sounded whiny.

(leftmost being best, rightmost being worst):
TNG > TOS > a colonoscopy > VOY > ENT > A steaming pile of poo > Babylon 5 > DS9

 

[_Rick_]

I think, by average episode quality, enterprise and TNG roughly match.
Enterprise had a few great episodes, and a few bombs.
TNG had a lot more episodes overall, and there was some dire stuff in there, that quickly gets forgotten. On the other hand, they did have a handful of good episodes.

What I bemoan about all Star Trek is the lack of overall purpose. With Voyager they could have pulled off something fantastic, because the narration always had a predefined beginning and end, and they could have written it into a tight series of causally related events. In the end, it was just more Star Trek, only without the Federation. And Star Trek is all about aimlessly flying about and endlessly solving side-quests. This lack of cross-episode cohesion makes the overall narration and experience somewhat disjointed, and therefore as a series something that usually doesn't work so well.

Some of the episodes on the other hand can be pretty good. It's just that personally I prefer more complete and cohesive story arcs, with character development (yes, there is character development in Trek, but it's very subtle, and not always really coherent) and a notion of purpose.

 

[mrjminer]

People hate Wesley because he was a Mary Sue. They're idealized characters usually serving as an author insert. It's long been speculated that Wesley Crusher was actually Gene Roddenberry putting himself in the story.

Generally Mary Sues are usually characters who are too perfect for the universe they are a part of. Usually possessing abilities or privileges way beyond what is considered normal for the world they inhabit. They tend to be fairly one dimensional as well.

It comes full circle back to my original comment that the TNG writers didn't know how to write for child and young adult characters. Especially in those early seasons.

I can see that viewpoint because the earlier seasons were a bit worse than the later ones. Just doesn't bother me personally I guess. Maybe because when TNG was airing Wesley was older than me (I am less than 30), so I probably subconsciously related to him on some kind of cool older kid level.

 

[eelw]

Yeah I loved the mini arcs of season 3 and 4 of Enterprise. The augments arc are my favourite episodes of entire Star Trek line.

 

[SaurusX]

Archer is a water polo fan.... Come on! Really?? I freaking fan of water polo?? He loves it so much that he watches taped water polo matches in his ready room? Water polo. I'm all for suspension of disbelief, but sometimes it's just too much!

 

[JulesMaximus]

I think, by average episode quality, enterprise and TNG roughly match.
Enterprise had a few great episodes, and a few bombs.
TNG had a lot more episodes overall, and there was some dire stuff in there, that quickly gets forgotten. On the other hand, they did have a handful of good episodes.

What I bemoan about all Star Trek is the lack of overall purpose. With Voyager they could have pulled off something fantastic, because the narration always had a predefined beginning and end, and they could have written it into a tight series of causally related events. In the end, it was just more Star Trek, only without the Federation. And Star Trek is all about aimlessly flying about and endlessly solving side-quests. This lack of cross-episode cohesion makes the overall narration and experience somewhat disjointed, and therefore as a series something that usually doesn't work so well.

Some of the episodes on the other hand can be pretty good. It's just that personally I prefer more complete and cohesive story arcs, with character development (yes, there is character development in Trek, but it's very subtle, and not always really coherent) and a notion of purpose.

That is something they actually did pretty well in the 3rd season of Enterprise. The entire season was one long story and it worked. I loved that season. I eagerly awaited the 4th season but the writers went right back to the disjointed approach and it was just a huge let down.

 

[Sonikku]

I find it interesting how divisive DS9 is among fans.

 

[leper84]

I find it interesting how divisive DS9 is among fans.

Because some can't handle the awesome that is Sisko.

Back on topic, as far as Enterprise I think its a mistake when most people expect it to be more similar to tng/ds9/voy. Given the period of time they were portraying I don't think they could have done a better job. Its a shame they only did four seasons.

 

[Fritzo]

Nerd fight!

 

[poofyhairguy]

I think, by average episode quality, enterprise and TNG roughly match.
Enterprise had a few great episodes, and a few bombs.
TNG had a lot more episodes overall, and there was some dire stuff in there, that quickly gets forgotten. On the other hand, they did have a handful of good episodes.

The difference is that unlike Enterprise, TNG had some outright GREAT episodes. Like the best ever in a Sci Fi.

"The Measure of a Man," "Yesterday’s Enterprise," "Chain of Command," "The Inner Light," :The Pegasus," and of course "The Best of Both Worlds" are all better than anything on Enterprise (or any other Trek other than DS9 and TOS IMHO).

Sure many many TNG episodes suck- the holideck ones, ones with children, every scene with the second season doctor (I hate that bitch). But the ones that are good are best of breed.

 

[_Rick_]

That is something they actually did pretty well in the 3rd season of Enterprise. The entire season was one long story and it worked. I loved that season. I eagerly awaited the 4th season but the writers went right back to the disjointed approach and it was just a huge let down.

Yes, story-telling-wise, that was as good as Trek ever got.

 

[Sonikku]

The inner light is the only episode to bring me to tears. :'(

Tapestry is also an underrated episode that people should give a look. Lower Decks as well.

 

[poofyhairguy]

The inner light is the only episode to bring me to tears. :'(

Yup. It is my second favorite to Measure of a Man.

(Because MOAM has everything that makes TNG great- Data as a main plot focus, Picard playing lawyer, Riker playing a strong role, and philosophy as the setting)

 

[Triumph]

I think, by average episode quality, enterprise and TNG roughly match.
Enterprise had a few great episodes, and a few bombs.
TNG had a lot more episodes overall, and there was some dire stuff in there, that quickly gets forgotten. On the other hand, they did have a handful of good episodes.

What I bemoan about all Star Trek is the lack of overall purpose. With Voyager they could have pulled off something fantastic, because the narration always had a predefined beginning and end, and they could have written it into a tight series of causally related events. In the end, it was just more Star Trek, only without the Federation. And Star Trek is all about aimlessly flying about and endlessly solving side-quests. This lack of cross-episode cohesion makes the overall narration and experience somewhat disjointed, and therefore as a series something that usually doesn't work so well.

Some of the episodes on the other hand can be pretty good. It's just that personally I prefer more complete and cohesive story arcs, with character development (yes, there is character development in Trek, but it's very subtle, and not always really coherent) and a notion of purpose.

Everybody wants TV shows to be fucking Lost or 24, every episode leading into the next, essentially what they want are soap operas. Go watch those shows if you want to do nothing for 7-12 hours, because each individual episode is usually pretty boring taken by itself, and usually doesn't have a good story arc. There's no introduction-conflict-resolution pattern. I have other things to do than watch 4-5 episodes when I come home from work. When I was a kid, the three worst words in the English language were, "To be continued..."

TNG has plenty of story arcs anyway. Data's battles with Lor and his relationship with Dr. Sung, Worf and his perpetual attempt at being a pathetic Klingon, the multiple Borg episodes that tied together, the Q episodes...There were story arcs, just not in the linear fashion that you guys want.

All Good Things was possibly the best final episode of all time. Tell me that didn't involve a story arc across the series.

 

[alzan]

They were all good/bad in their own way; you also have to look at the time period in which they were produced/aired and what shows they were up against.

Were I to measure them only against themselves: DS9>TOS>Enterprise>Voyager>TNG(the middle seasons; the first and last seasons were awful).

Red Dwarf of any season beats the pants off of any Star Trek series.

 

[_Rick_]

Everybody wants TV shows to be fucking Lost or 24, every episode leading into the next, essentially what they want are soap operas. Go watch those shows if you want to do nothing for 7-12 hours, because each individual episode is usually pretty boring taken by itself, and usually doesn't have a good story arc. There's no introduction-conflict-resolution pattern. I have other things to do than watch 4-5 episodes when I come home from work. When I was a kid, the three worst words in the English language were, "To be continued..."

TNG has plenty of story arcs anyway. Data's battles with Lor and his relationship with Dr. Sung, Worf and his perpetual attempt at being a pathetic Klingon, the multiple Borg episodes that tied together, the Q episodes...There were story arcs, just not in the linear fashion that you guys want.

All Good Things was possibly the best final episode of all time. Tell me that didn't involve a story arc across the series.

If you're writing for TV, I think you can have both.
You can have episodes that have a narrative arc in themselves, without having to resort to cheap cliffhangers, and missing resolution, and still have a strong connecting thread. The examples you gave show, that it can be done, but in Star Trek these arcs rarely stretch any significant distance.

On the other hand, the Enterprise's mission of exploration often does not fit that format. Which is why we only find it in few episodes. Yet, whenever it is done, it makes the characters appear to be deeper, as we can see character development happening with regard to a fixed backdrop.

Much like you can write a quest, that consist of subquests for an RPG, can you write a series of episodes, that each have a closed narrative.
It's also how you should tell bedtime stories, by the way

 

[zinfamous]

I agree, Spaceman, I agree--this only after watching through all of them over the last year on Netflix.

Enterprise, they nearly started dozens of wars just running out there and trying to figure shit out. Most of the stories in the other series are dated, pedestrian, and populated with shitty characters. DS9 was pretty good, though.

 

[silverpig]

The first 3 seasons were good. The last season sucked.

Still not better than TOS or TNG though.

WTF?

The first two seasons were a wandering mess. There were a few good episodes, but it was by and large pretty poor.

The third season was entertaining, but it wasn't really star trek.

The fourth season was easily the best of the series. It was setting up the romulan war, which was what everyone wanted to see.

 

[poofyhairguy]

My wife likes Enterprise the best because it shows the Vulcans as not perfect and she appreciated that.

What kills me about it is the fact that they tried to cut the middle on technology between that era and TNG and failed.

TNG's technology STILL sets the standard for what humans can achieve. From touch controls to voice command, an iPhone from Siri on down is the Enterprise in your hands. Nerds draw inspiration from the show, and will keep doing so until we hit the entertainment center climax that would be a holodeck.

Meanwhile Enterprise didn't have a lot of the coolest tech in TNG. Not having a tractor beam or warp nine is interesting maybe, but buttons everywhere? No way.

An iPad already makes all the tech on Enterprise seem dated, while we haven't caught up to TNG. When a show from the 80's feels less dated (technology-wise, the 80's cheese is still there) than a show from the 00's you did it wrong.