End of Neocons - GOOD RIDDANCE!!!

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Genesys
i'd like to see a resurgence in good old fashioned conservatism. limited govt, limited taxes, good military [and intelligence orginizations] funding/support, etc...

Well, that isn't going to happen under a Bush administration.

It won't necessarily happen under a Kerry administration either. But, having a Republican-controlled Congress will temper and social programs Kerry would support.

thats the sad truth. i never thought Bush was as conservative as he would like most of us to believe.

and i'd rather avoid a kerry administration because i dont want to hear his useless rhetoric about social programs and how they're going to benefit us sooooooo much. in all probability, he'll just throw more money at the problem and create more bureaucracy. something this country does not need more of.

Only if the Republican-controlled Congress allows it. And, I don't see that happening. Kerry is staring at the face of some pretty heft national debt and will be working to reduce that budget defict. I see a bit of pulling back of our armed forces from various areas (but maintaining a strong presence in Iraq for some time to come.)

I'd love to see a big cut in aid (esp. military) to Israel and focusing more on welfare reform here (graduated welfare benefits that are phased out over time or based on the individual's ability to become self-sufficient.)

 

[Kappo]

I'd love to see a big cut in aid (esp. military) to Israel and focusing more on welfare reform here (graduated welfare benefits that are phased out over time or based on the individual's ability to become self-sufficient.)

How's about we drop them on thier a$$es and make them get jobs rather than give them the option to watch television all day at the expense of my taxdollars?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Kappo
I'd love to see a big cut in aid (esp. military) to Israel and focusing more on welfare reform here (graduated welfare benefits that are phased out over time or based on the individual's ability to become self-sufficient.)

How's about we drop them on thier a$$es and make them get jobs rather than give them the option to watch television all day at the expense of my taxdollars?

You should read my previous posts on that topic...cutting them cold-turkey is not the way to do it.

 

[Kappo]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Kappo
I'd love to see a big cut in aid (esp. military) to Israel and focusing more on welfare reform here (graduated welfare benefits that are phased out over time or based on the individual's ability to become self-sufficient.)

How's about we drop them on thier a$$es and make them get jobs rather than give them the option to watch television all day at the expense of my taxdollars?

You should read my previous posts on that topic...cutting them cold-turkey is not the way to do it.

lol, did you mean, in YOUR opinion? I know quite a few people who were lazy in HS and college (and beyond), yet when faced with "get a job or starve" they got a little motivation

The only reason thing welfare does is promote laziness. I have been dead broke before, and had to take second and third jobs to make sure I had everything I needed. But getting government assistance never even crossed my mind. *shrug* perhaps how crappy your parents are has a direct correlation on how quickly you will claim that you deserve a handout?

I am actually exaggerating quite a bit. Of course it would not be the right thing to do to just drop them off welfare. But you let them know that "Hey we will no longer be providing welfare after 1/1/2005, this includes food stamps, unemployment, and the like. This does not include physical disability benefits". Then just dont accept anymore applicants

If they cant get a job then let them starve. Because the jobs ARE there. They may be crappy jobs, but these people expect to just jump into a job paying 3x what they are capable of producing. My philosphy is that if you work hard you will make it. I havent found very many people where that method hasnt worked.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Kappo

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Kappo
I'd love to see a big cut in aid (esp. military) to Israel and focusing more on welfare reform here (graduated welfare benefits that are phased out over time or based on the individual's ability to become self-sufficient.)

How's about we drop them on thier a$$es and make them get jobs rather than give them the option to watch television all day at the expense of my taxdollars?

You should read my previous posts on that topic...cutting them cold-turkey is not the way to do it.

lol, did you mean, in YOUR opinion? I know quite a few people who were lazy in HS and college (and beyond), yet when faced with "get a job or starve" they got a little motivation

The only reason thing welfare does is promote laziness. I have been dead broke before, and had to take second and third jobs to make sure I had everything I needed. But getting government assistance never even crossed my mind. *shrug* perhaps how crappy your parents are has a direct correlation on how quickly you will claim that you deserve a handout?

I am actually exaggerating quite a bit. Of course it would not be the right thing to do to just drop them off welfare. But you let them know that "Hey we will no longer be providing welfare after 1/1/2005, this includes food stamps, unemployment, and the like. This does not include physical disability benefits". Then just dont accept anymore applicants

If they cant get a job then let them starve. Because the jobs ARE there. They may be crappy jobs, but these people expect to just jump into a job paying 3x what they are capable of producing. My philosphy is that if you work hard you will make it. I havent found very many people where that method hasnt worked.

That's why I support graduated benefits.

There are many people who need assistance to get a head start. Perhaps they gambled and lost and now have a young child before they have completed their education. That's a tremendous cost and can lead to failure to complete school and a life of mere subsistence thereafter.

I see nothing wrong with helping people in those situations with childcare or education until they become self-sufficient.

But, if those people fail to better themselves, the benefits eventually disappear. We need to let these people know that the government will not support lazy attitudes. But to cripple people truly trying to make it on their own is irresponsible.

 

[hokiezilla]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: hokiezilla

Or it could mean that we have become a nation of desensitized zombies. It could mean that the only way the mainstream media outlets could pump up their sagging numbers was to sensationalize this story. We are in May sweeps after all, and this story is still getting top billing. The events at Abu Gharib should've had a half-life of about 1 week tops.

The mainstream media outlets no longer use jounalistic integrity as their guide. What we see nowadays is tantamount to yellow journalism, and smacks of Enquirer-esque goofiness way too often.

I think you make some good points. The Abu Ghraib story lends itself to media sensationalization, because of its visual nature, and it is well-timed for sweeps. Moreover, a picture, as they say, speaks a thousand words, and so it's easy for even the laziest citizen to grasp the story and draw conclusions.

That said, I think it is naive and wrong to adopt the position that the story is no big deal, or that it can or should blow over quickly. As a patriot and GI, I regard this as one of the saddest moments in American history, and one that bears close scrutiny. If we fail to learn from our mistakes, we are doomed to repeat them.

Even forgetting for the moment about the pictures themselves, the acts at Abu Ghraib and other US military detention facilities have led to the deaths of 37 prisoners since 9/11, nine of which are confirmed as homicides. This is a Big Deal if we are going to assume the role of Regime Police, and overthrow governments with whom we don't get along. We are at a crossroads in terms of international relations, and if we don't mend our fences we may never recover what we've lost in terms of credibility with our allies and respect from our enemies.

There's a lot of truth in what you say Don_Vito. It's not that I don't think it's a big deal though. I think that it's a big deal that has been turned into a full scale PR campaign by the media.

The modern news cycle ordinarily turns so quickly that this would've been a mild tremor seismologically speaking without the pictures and without election year politics. With the pictures, but without the circus atmosphere of an election year would probably yield a 6 on the Richter scale. However, with the present circumstances, both manufactured and real, it's a full 9 on the Richter.

Sorry for the seismology analogy, it's the best I could come up with.

 

[hokiezilla]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Kappo

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Kappo
I'd love to see a big cut in aid (esp. military) to Israel and focusing more on welfare reform here (graduated welfare benefits that are phased out over time or based on the individual's ability to become self-sufficient.)

How's about we drop them on thier a$$es and make them get jobs rather than give them the option to watch television all day at the expense of my taxdollars?

You should read my previous posts on that topic...cutting them cold-turkey is not the way to do it.

lol, did you mean, in YOUR opinion? I know quite a few people who were lazy in HS and college (and beyond), yet when faced with "get a job or starve" they got a little motivation

The only reason thing welfare does is promote laziness. I have been dead broke before, and had to take second and third jobs to make sure I had everything I needed. But getting government assistance never even crossed my mind. *shrug* perhaps how crappy your parents are has a direct correlation on how quickly you will claim that you deserve a handout?

I am actually exaggerating quite a bit. Of course it would not be the right thing to do to just drop them off welfare. But you let them know that "Hey we will no longer be providing welfare after 1/1/2005, this includes food stamps, unemployment, and the like. This does not include physical disability benefits". Then just dont accept anymore applicants

If they cant get a job then let them starve. Because the jobs ARE there. They may be crappy jobs, but these people expect to just jump into a job paying 3x what they are capable of producing. My philosphy is that if you work hard you will make it. I havent found very many people where that method hasnt worked.

That's why I support graduated benefits.

There are many people who need assistance to get a head start. Perhaps they gambled and lost and now have a young child before they have completed their education. That's a tremendous cost and can lead to failure to complete school and a life of mere subsistence thereafter.

I see nothing wrong with helping people in those situations with childcare or education until they become self-sufficient.

But, if those people fail to better themselves, the benefits eventually disappear. We need to let these people know that the government will not support lazy attitudes. But to cripple people truly trying to make it on their own is irresponsible.

I think you say a lot of reasonable things on this topic Conjur. My only problem is, and believe me, I work for Child Support Enforcement, is that SO many people scam the system. You've got women out their who have illegitimate children, and then apply for welfare assistance. Then she will shack up with the biological father. All the time, he's working, and she's getting a full ride sucking on the public teat.
She conveniently forgets to report this to the welfare agency, and thus the taxpayer is not reimbursed one red cent for their lack of responsibility.

Get this, we had one case where a woman went to a local fertility clinic to get artificially inseminated. She then applied for welfare. Guess who picked up the tab on her child birth? The state did. Not only that, after the birth she received: ADC (Aid to Dependent Children), food stamps, fuel assistance, and so and so forth. We'll never recoup a dime of what she'll draw because we don't have a father legally speaking.

In another case, in a different locality, there was some guy who had 14 children by 10 different women. At least half of the women where/are receiving welfare benefits. Now by my standards that idiot is a menace to society, and should have a court-ordered vasectomy, because there is no way hades that he will be able to pay for all of those children since he's basically indigent.

I could go on, and on, and on... but I do see your point.

 

[conjur]

That's where graduated reductions in benefits will come into play. After 2-3 years when the benefits dry up, the scam artists will be left on their own in the mess they created.

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Kappo

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Kappo
I'd love to see a big cut in aid (esp. military) to Israel and focusing more on welfare reform here (graduated welfare benefits that are phased out over time or based on the individual's ability to become self-sufficient.)

How's about we drop them on thier a$$es and make them get jobs rather than give them the option to watch television all day at the expense of my taxdollars?

You should read my previous posts on that topic...cutting them cold-turkey is not the way to do it.

lol, did you mean, in YOUR opinion? I know quite a few people who were lazy in HS and college (and beyond), yet when faced with "get a job or starve" they got a little motivation

The only reason thing welfare does is promote laziness. I have been dead broke before, and had to take second and third jobs to make sure I had everything I needed. But getting government assistance never even crossed my mind. *shrug* perhaps how crappy your parents are has a direct correlation on how quickly you will claim that you deserve a handout?

I am actually exaggerating quite a bit. Of course it would not be the right thing to do to just drop them off welfare. But you let them know that "Hey we will no longer be providing welfare after 1/1/2005, this includes food stamps, unemployment, and the like. This does not include physical disability benefits". Then just dont accept anymore applicants

If they cant get a job then let them starve. Because the jobs ARE there. They may be crappy jobs, but these people expect to just jump into a job paying 3x what they are capable of producing. My philosphy is that if you work hard you will make it. I havent found very many people where that method hasnt worked.

That's why I support graduated benefits.

There are many people who need assistance to get a head start. Perhaps they gambled and lost and now have a young child before they have completed their education. That's a tremendous cost and can lead to failure to complete school and a life of mere subsistence thereafter.

I see nothing wrong with helping people in those situations with childcare or education until they become self-sufficient.

But, if those people fail to better themselves, the benefits eventually disappear. We need to let these people know that the government will not support lazy attitudes. But to cripple people truly trying to make it on their own is irresponsible.

while i do agree with you on the need for welfare reform, i, personally [as said before] would do it a bit differently. im sure you remember the post, so i wont go into it again. not only that, but i also dont mind helping people, its just that i dont believe that it should be a mandatory thing for the taxpayers of this country to have to shoulder their own burden plus anothers burden as well.

I see nothing wrong with helping people in those situations with childcare or education until they become self-sufficient.

the only thing wrong with the current institution of welfare is this. its unconstitutional. the constitution says nothing about the redistribution of wealth, or the collecting of taxes only to turn around and hand them [the taxes] back to the impoverished [sp]. this is what charaties are for. what the salvation army and good will were started for. we need to rely more on the generosity and good will of americans to donate rather than to place another burden on our backs. let it be a willful burden, not a mandatory burden.

oh well, im through babbling...for now time to go get another bite to eat

 

[conjur]

damn you and your midnight food fetishes !! :|






Glad I went to the store last night, though.

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: conjur
damn you and your midnight food fetishes !! :|






Glad I went to the store last night, though.

the sad thing is i said that 15min ago and havent been able to tear myself away fromt he computer.

damned computer and damned political discussions!

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: conjur
damn you and your midnight food fetishes !! :|






Glad I went to the store last night, though.

the sad thing is i said that 15min ago and havent been able to tear myself away fromt he computer.

damned computer and damned political discussions!

Eating some grilled chicken breasts from yesterdays BBQ.

Man, get yourself something to eat if you are hungry, we will all be here when you come back.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: conjur
damn you and your midnight food fetishes !! :|






Glad I went to the store last night, though.

the sad thing is i said that 15min ago and havent been able to tear myself away fromt he computer.

damned computer and damned political discussions!

Nothing like a few hard-boiled eggs.

 

[Genesys]

awwww, you guys are so sweat

went and back now

 

[conjur]

Hey, Everyone....shhhh....he's back!!

 

[Doboji]

This may be the tragic truth, the neo-cons may indeed lose power. When they do, the politics in this country will swing to the left. Which is good for domestic politics, and really really bad for foreign politics. When all the crazy peaceniks get they're screamed for idiotic passive United States, millions of people will die in Iraq, but noone will care. Reality is it really doesnt matter how many people die, or how they die, all that seems to matter is who is responsible. We fool ourselves into believing that somehow if we weren't in Iraq thousands of people wouldnt be dying. Or that somehow terrorists would lose their footing and motivation. This is completely illogical, and unfounded historically. When we turn our back on terrorism, and militant Islam, these problems are not going to go away... they are going to fester. And the time may come when we will look back on the stupidity of Abu Ghraib, and wonder... was that the turning point, when the terrorists, and militant Islam began to win, and the freedoms of democracy began to lose? Will we see the relevance in the turn of public opinion, the weak kneed american public, who lack the stomach for what war really means?

As we approach memorial day, do we somehow believe that WWII was a noble well deserved war?... That the atrocities of WWII were somehow justifiable... do we believe that had the media reported as zealously on the bombings at dresden, that the American public would scream for us to get out of Europe... scream that it wasn't our problem? I know the argument that follows here... that Iraq is not Germany, that the whole world was engaged in WWII. But only a fool can deny the reality, that the Nazi party wasnt always in power, that the whole world wasn't always engaged. Only a fool can deny the real imminent threat that Militant Islam, which is sustained by the dictatorships of the Middle East, really holds for the planet.

Again I know the argument here is that Iraq wasn't an islamic state... but Iraq was part of the regional problem that IS Militant Islam... The objective is not to democratize Iraq, and think that will miraculously cure our issues with terror. Our objective is to change the face of the world, to move beyond depressed, un successful nations, where it's people only have Islam to fall back on. Our objective only begins in Iraq, if we succeed in Iraq, but fail to spread the idea of democracy from Iraq, then we have still failed. Iraq is only the beginning. If we cannot hold our resolve in Iraq, then we cannot hope to achieve our true objective, freedom, democracy, and prosperity throughout the rest of the world. And if we fail to reach our objective, then we imperil our children and our children's children to fight the war that we lost.

-Max

 

[Bowmaster]

This may be the tragic truth, the neo-cons may indeed lose power. When they do, the politics in this country will swing to the left.

I really hope it swings to the center - and stays there.

Only a fool can deny the real imminent threat that Militant Islam, which is sustained by the dictatorships of the Middle East, really holds for the planet.

I believe this, too. I just don't think trying to change one (Iraq) will have any effect - the others will undermine the effort. The only way things will change is like what is happening in Iran - through technology (e.g. the internet).

 

[Doboji]

I believe this, too. I just don't think trying to change one (Iraq) will have any effect - the others will undermine the effort. The only way things will change is like what is happening in Iran - through technology (e.g. the internet).

I hear ya there. But the problem is, unlike the Soviet Union which was stalemated by the whole mutually assured destruction thing, militant Islam and western civilization are not stalemated. The only reason we havent been hit worse by terrorism, is because the capability to do more, isnt there yet. I'd love to wait for technology, and western culture to infiltrate these countries and change them. I truly believe that is the better way. However.. I dont think we have the time, and as you and I both know, if a larger terrorist attack does take place, all hell will break lose. If you think we're being immoral, and using excessive force now... wait until a nuke goes off in NYC.

Logically speaking, I think we can actually minimize death, destruction, and suffering by taking action now. Conversly I think waiting, would actually maximize the above, with only a remote long shot of success.

Having said that, I think the fact that it is only(well excessively) american troops, and american contractors in Iraq is ridiculous borderlining on insanity. This should be a world effort, anything short of that feeds into the rest of the world hungering for the power of the United States, and thereby it becomes in the ignorant interests of the world to help the US fail. We must have not only European troops active in Iraq, we must have Arab troops on the ground in Iraq.

-Max

 

[Bowmaster]

I dont think we have the time, and as you and I both know, if a larger terrorist attack does take place, all hell will break lose.

I couldn't agree more. And I think it would hurt our freedoms more than our infrastructure/people.

Having said that, I think the fact that it is only(well excessively) american troops, and american contractors in Iraq is ridiculous borderlining on insanity.

Again, I agree. This really is the biggest failing of the Bush administration - being arrogant enough to go it alone. We HAD the worlds support just after 9/11 - and Bush gave it away.

Logically speaking, I think we can actually minimize death, destruction, and suffering by taking action now. Conversly I think waiting, would actually maximize the above, with only a remote long shot of success.

This is where I think I disagree. I think we have given Al Qaeda a big recruitment drive. I think if we had fixed the problems in our intelligence community (caused by Clinton + Bush) and gotten the world involved in fighting this problem, we would have been much more sucessful. That said, I don't think terrorism will ever be wiped out - only contained.

 

[lozina]

When it comes to neocons...

"We dont die, we multiply!"

 

From irwincur:

Got sick of my other forums. Wanted to change it up a bit, plus I had forgotten about this place for quite some time.

FYI got sick of means "got permabanned from".

 

Originally posted by: irwincur
Got sick of my other forums. Wanted to change it up a bit, plus I had forgotten about this place for quite some time.

FYI "got sick of" means "got permabanned from for being a complete jerk off".

News you can use.