PingSpike
Lifer
- Feb 25, 2004
- 21,758
- 603
- 126
On the other hand, the rape of Iraqi women and the torture and humilation of detainees at the hand of American soldiers is clearly not a big deal, and should be swept under the carpet where it belongs. Because the media blew that all out of proportion...yet the same media that has a liberal adgenda was right when it reported on the Lewinski scandal.
Kappo
Platinum Member
- Aug 18, 2000
- 2,381
- 0
- 0
Depending on if you had 100% access to thier internal documentation or not. I did. I also saw on a daily basis how footage would be cut and what they leave out. MANY MANY of the things that you see from them are not even close to the context they are in if you see the WHOLE thing.
Since you want to be patronizing....
I am assuming that you delivered something. Basiclly someone who drove a truck and didnt KNOW your employers. How is it that you dont know the stance on a company you worked for? Is it because your job doesnt mean very much to you? And did you quit so your fellow liberals can help you get paid to not have a job?
Also, the title of this post:
Topic Title: End of Neocons - GOOD RIDDANCE!!!
Just goes to show you how much liberals value other people's opinions
I personally like and appreciate someone with different views' outlook and perspective. But with the tons of Nazi references going around towards conservatives, I would watch out for trying to stifle other's views simply because they dont agree with yours. You know, unless you really do admire Adolf and are aspiring to be like him and all.Well, that isn't going to happen under a Bush administration.
It won't necessarily happen under a Kerry administration either. But, having a Republican-controlled Congress will temper and social programs Kerry would support.
I use the term neocon in its perjorative form quite often but it really doesn't have much meaning.
A few days ago I was privy to a private email between some top Republicans here in Florida. A friend sent it to me even though he knows I have little sympathy for George. Anyway, the Republicans feel quite good about their prospects here in Florida but are very nervous about the overall election, particularly in those states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Ohio which have very substantial EC votes.
Furthermore, and more on point, one of the writers expressed the opinion that GW was the weakest Republican candidate he has seen in 30 years and it was due to Bush's "neocon pretensions", whatever the heck that means.
Yeah, traditional conservatives are going to vote for Bush the way I'm going to vote for Kerry-with a big clothespin firmly attached to their probosces.
-Robert
A few days ago I was privy to a private email between some top Republicans here in Florida. A friend sent it to me even though he knows I have little sympathy for George. Anyway, the Republicans feel quite good about their prospects here in Florida but are very nervous about the overall election, particularly in those states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Ohio which have very substantial EC votes.
Furthermore, and more on point, one of the writers expressed the opinion that GW was the weakest Republican candidate he has seen in 30 years and it was due to Bush's "neocon pretensions", whatever the heck that means.
Yeah, traditional conservatives are going to vote for Bush the way I'm going to vote for Kerry-with a big clothespin firmly attached to their probosces.
-Robert
Originally posted by: chess9
I use the term neocon in its perjorative form quite often but it really doesn't have much meaning.
A few days ago I was privy to a private email between some top Republicans here in Florida. A friend sent it to me even though he knows I have little sympathy for George. Anyway, the Republicans feel quite good about their prospects here in Florida but are very nervous about the overall election, particularly in those states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Ohio which have very substantial EC votes.
Furhermore, and more on point, one of the writers expressed the opinion that GW was the weakest Republican candidate he has seen in 30 years and it was due to Bush's "neocon pretensions", whatever the heck that means.
Yeah, traditional conservatives are going to vote for Bush the way I'm going to vote for Kerry-with a big clothespin firmly attached to their probosces.
-Robert
I don't see Bush as a neocon. To me, a neocon is exemplified by those in the PNAC. Bush is more of a whiteboard with nothing on it and open to ideas and influence. Of course, since his administration is top-heavy with neocons, he has supported that vision in his Presidency. Bush is truly a puppet President.
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
irwincur,
You go to a American actual CITY (not in BFE or some backwater hole in the south or midwest) and look around. People marching in the streets (almost daily here) posters everywhere- US out of Iraq! etc.
Yeah there are most likely more right-wingers in (insert smaller US state or some freak place where marrying your cousin is ok)
but then look at education nowdays -not surprising
Anyhow people are disgusted and have no faith in their elected leaders and their politics. it's all corprate run garbage and crooked as hell.
20% of the people who vote may be considered left but I don't think this is anywhere near an accurate figure. remember almost 50% of this country is so sick of the status quo they basiclly gave up there votes to old people and those who just vote the party line or saw on tv.
And I know lots of rolling eyes as people bleat on about "Well your from California." Yeah and California IS A HUGE part america population-wise, economiclly, and culturally. (Cali and NYC) Except for politics right now but then we have our own problems to deal without buying off some arbitrary figurehead in DC who can not even speak english properly.
America is NOT some fundi-state of right wingers but a lot of individuals trying to make sense of this mess and getting fed a lot of diversionary partisan politics from rich fat white men trying to make more money with the blood of our young then they could ever know what to do with.
You go to a American actual CITY (not in BFE or some backwater hole in the south or midwest) and look around. People marching in the streets (almost daily here) posters everywhere- US out of Iraq! etc.
Yeah there are most likely more right-wingers in (insert smaller US state or some freak place where marrying your cousin is ok)
but then look at education nowdays -not surprising
Anyhow people are disgusted and have no faith in their elected leaders and their politics. it's all corprate run garbage and crooked as hell.
20% of the people who vote may be considered left but I don't think this is anywhere near an accurate figure. remember almost 50% of this country is so sick of the status quo they basiclly gave up there votes to old people and those who just vote the party line or saw on tv.
And I know lots of rolling eyes as people bleat on about "Well your from California." Yeah and California IS A HUGE part america population-wise, economiclly, and culturally. (Cali and NYC) Except for politics right now but then we have our own problems to deal without buying off some arbitrary figurehead in DC who can not even speak english properly.
America is NOT some fundi-state of right wingers but a lot of individuals trying to make sense of this mess and getting fed a lot of diversionary partisan politics from rich fat white men trying to make more money with the blood of our young then they could ever know what to do with.
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
- Feb 10, 2000
- 30,029
- 67
- 91
Just as a general observation, I think it's really disingenuous, and almost certainly misleading, to interpret the results of the 2002 election as representative of a generalized trend toward conservatism among American voters.
The fact of the matter is, at that time we were in a post-9/11 environment, flush with the apparent success of Operation Enduring Freedom and looking forward to likely war with the imminently-threatening Iraq, which was, we were told, directly connected to 9/11, bristling with WMDs and well on their way toward developing nuclear weapons. Within that historical context, it's hardly surprising that President Bush enjoyed high levels of popularity, and that people were inclined to vote Republican. Now, a year and a half later, the bloom is off the rose, and the polls bear out an altogether different picture.
I also take exception to the idea that the neoconservatives are really, well, conservative in a political sense. I have voted for Republicans in the past, and might well do so again if one were running that shared some semblence of my vision for the world. The fact of the matter is that the Bush administration has never embraced the traditional Republican ideals of fiscal conservatism and small government. Their agenda is an altogether different one, and one I have stopped struggling to justify.
The fact of the matter is, at that time we were in a post-9/11 environment, flush with the apparent success of Operation Enduring Freedom and looking forward to likely war with the imminently-threatening Iraq, which was, we were told, directly connected to 9/11, bristling with WMDs and well on their way toward developing nuclear weapons. Within that historical context, it's hardly surprising that President Bush enjoyed high levels of popularity, and that people were inclined to vote Republican. Now, a year and a half later, the bloom is off the rose, and the polls bear out an altogether different picture.
I also take exception to the idea that the neoconservatives are really, well, conservative in a political sense. I have voted for Republicans in the past, and might well do so again if one were running that shared some semblence of my vision for the world. The fact of the matter is that the Bush administration has never embraced the traditional Republican ideals of fiscal conservatism and small government. Their agenda is an altogether different one, and one I have stopped struggling to justify.
So if you are not from NY or LA you really don't count. Well this has been the liberal mantra for decades no surprises here.
See above. Nice, real nice. I love you open minded and caring liberals. Some people would likewise say that there are more liberals in (insert coastal elitist (failing) states or some freak place where marrying your gay lover is OK). So what is your point.
Oh, you mean the education system that has more than 75% of its teachers registered in the Democratic party. No wonder it doesn't work, nothing the Democrats have done or controlled has ever worked.
Actually in a capitalistic society this is precisely how it is supposed to work.
Of course more than 20% vote left, but only about 20% identify themselves as left. I believe this was a critique on the fact that liberals often hide behind the moderate moniker when in reality they are clearly not. When it comes to voting it is about 40% - 40% with a decent 20% swing.
Problems like 60% of your State cannot speak English properly? You are right, CA is huge, but your elite attitude and hubris are the reason the people in fly over country vote agianst your candidate. After all who wants an a$$hole picking out president. You forget that the hole in the middle of the country still accounts for more than CA and NY combined.'
Hmm... your rant is becoming less and less intelligent. Whatever, if you are so pissed then don't vote, or better yet move to the liberal utopia - Europe. See how much better it is when taxes are 90%, the rich are the only ones with any money, and unemployment is at 20%.
OK, then look at the two elections before that. There is a trend when after three elections the results become more and more predictable.
lozina
Lifer
- Sep 10, 2001
- 11,711
- 8
- 81
Originally posted by: Kappo
Depending on if you had 100% access to thier internal documentation or not. I did. I also saw on a daily basis how footage would be cut and what they leave out. MANY MANY of the things that you see from them are not even close to the context they are in if you see the WHOLE thing.
Since you want to be patronizing....
I am assuming that you delivered something. Basiclly someone who drove a truck and didnt KNOW your employers. How is it that you dont know the stance on a company you worked for? Is it because your job doesnt mean very much to you? And did you quit so your fellow liberals can help you get paid to not have a job?
Also, the title of this post:
Topic Title: End of Neocons - GOOD RIDDANCE!!!
Just goes to show you how much liberals value other people's opinions
Kappo, I don't need to claim "insider" priveledges to try and prove a point. (Oh yeah, my dad owns CNN and he's says there's no liberal bias-- we stopped using these kind of arguments in grade school).
If all you watch is Fox News and CNN, of course CNN will seem liberal to you, since that's the most left you've ever gone. Try reading some real liberal material, then get back to me.
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
- Feb 10, 2000
- 30,029
- 67
- 91
Huh? The Republicans definitely won big in 1994 (Clinton was sagging a bit at that point, which couldn't have helped, but there's no question that was a fairly breathtaking victory for the Republicans), but in 1998, the Democrats won 5 House seats, the first time since 1934 that an incumbent president's party had won any seats from the opposition. Most political scientists agree this was a win for the Democrats (though certainly not as dramatic a win as the Republicans enjoyed in 1994).
One complicating vector, as I mentioned above, is the fact that the Bush administration and many of its closest allies in Congress are not really conservative in the traditional sense, and so it's hard to winnow out whether a vote for Bush represents a vote for conservatism, exactly. My guess is that if we had held a Presidential election in the spring of 2002, Bush would have attracted the votes of a lot of Democrats; now I tend to think he will lose the votes of a lot of Republicans. We shall see . . .
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
So if you are not from NY or LA you really don't count. Well this has been the liberal mantra for decades no surprises here.
Every vote does count. But there are not as many other places. Does this not make sense? Simple math.
Actually in a capitalistic society this is precisely how it is supposed to work.
Then you might like north Korea or Cuba because reading this I see you have no clue how the founding fathers set up this country.
Oh, you mean the education system that has more than 75% of its teachers registered in the Democratic party. No wonder it doesn't work, nothing the Democrats have done or controlled has ever worked.
More like underpaid teachers spending there own money trying to educate children since it has all gone to blowing up children in other countries.
Problems like 60% of your State cannot speak English properly?
There is a simple explanation for this. America stole this part of the country in warfare. Our cities have spanish names also.
Should we rename the cities exxonville? walmartburg? make all the people speak a language not native to their land? racism. Leave mexicans out of this unless you know the crap they have been through and still are from the racist pigs back east. Most countries teach more then one language but then america is above that like everything else right?
You forget that the hole in the middle of the country still accounts for more than CA and NY combined.'
What hole? http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0004986.html Only state close is tx and I do not want to get into that mess. -A suburb out here is bigger then most midwest states.
Hmm... your rant is becoming less and less intelligent. Whatever, if you are so pissed then don't vote, or better yet move to the liberal utopia - Europe. See how much better it is when taxes are 90%, the rich are the only ones with any money, and unemployment is at 20%.
90%? what country is this? Last I saw we pay more in fed, state and local taxes here then most of the industrialized countries in europe with not much to show for it but crap education, guns and bombs. go read up on europe you'd be surprised in comparison to the stuff we put up with. A lot of things suck about europe and always have but I may just move there soon as quite a few people I know already have. Europe has the cool cities great music and people not running around blind in a bubble trying to make more and more money.
Every vote does count. But there are not as many other places. Does this not make sense? Simple math.
Actually in a capitalistic society this is precisely how it is supposed to work.
Then you might like north Korea or Cuba because reading this I see you have no clue how the founding fathers set up this country.
Oh, you mean the education system that has more than 75% of its teachers registered in the Democratic party. No wonder it doesn't work, nothing the Democrats have done or controlled has ever worked.
More like underpaid teachers spending there own money trying to educate children since it has all gone to blowing up children in other countries.
Problems like 60% of your State cannot speak English properly?
There is a simple explanation for this. America stole this part of the country in warfare. Our cities have spanish names also.
Should we rename the cities exxonville? walmartburg? make all the people speak a language not native to their land? racism. Leave mexicans out of this unless you know the crap they have been through and still are from the racist pigs back east. Most countries teach more then one language but then america is above that like everything else right?
You forget that the hole in the middle of the country still accounts for more than CA and NY combined.'
What hole? http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0004986.html Only state close is tx and I do not want to get into that mess. -A suburb out here is bigger then most midwest states.
Hmm... your rant is becoming less and less intelligent. Whatever, if you are so pissed then don't vote, or better yet move to the liberal utopia - Europe. See how much better it is when taxes are 90%, the rich are the only ones with any money, and unemployment is at 20%.
90%? what country is this? Last I saw we pay more in fed, state and local taxes here then most of the industrialized countries in europe with not much to show for it but crap education, guns and bombs. go read up on europe you'd be surprised in comparison to the stuff we put up with. A lot of things suck about europe and always have but I may just move there soon as quite a few people I know already have. Europe has the cool cities great music and people not running around blind in a bubble trying to make more and more money.
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
- Feb 10, 2000
- 30,029
- 67
- 91
I think you make some good points. The Abu Ghraib story lends itself to media sensationalization, because of its visual nature, and it is well-timed for sweeps. Moreover, a picture, as they say, speaks a thousand words, and so it's easy for even the laziest citizen to grasp the story and draw conclusions.
That said, I think it is naive and wrong to adopt the position that the story is no big deal, or that it can or should blow over quickly. As a patriot and GI, I regard this as one of the saddest moments in American history, and one that bears close scrutiny. If we fail to learn from our mistakes, we are doomed to repeat them.
Even forgetting for the moment about the pictures themselves, the acts at Abu Ghraib and other US military detention facilities have led to the deaths of 37 prisoners since 9/11, nine of which are confirmed as homicides. This is a Big Deal if we are going to assume the role of Regime Police, and overthrow governments with whom we don't get along. We are at a crossroads in terms of international relations, and if we don't mend our fences we may never recover what we've lost in terms of credibility with our allies and respect from our enemies.
Kappo
Platinum Member
- Aug 18, 2000
- 2,381
- 0
- 0
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: Kappo
Depending on if you had 100% access to thier internal documentation or not. I did. I also saw on a daily basis how footage would be cut and what they leave out. MANY MANY of the things that you see from them are not even close to the context they are in if you see the WHOLE thing.
Since you want to be patronizing....
I am assuming that you delivered something. Basiclly someone who drove a truck and didnt KNOW your employers. How is it that you dont know the stance on a company you worked for? Is it because your job doesnt mean very much to you? And did you quit so your fellow liberals can help you get paid to not have a job?
Also, the title of this post:
Topic Title: End of Neocons - GOOD RIDDANCE!!!
Just goes to show you how much liberals value other people's opinions
Kappo, I don't need to claim "insider" priveledges to try and prove a point. (Oh yeah, my dad owns CNN and he's says there's no liberal bias-- we stopped using these kind of arguments in grade school).
If all you watch is Fox News and CNN, of course CNN will seem liberal to you, since that's the most left you've ever gone. Try reading some real liberal material, then get back to me.
I read tons of it when I worked there. I also had to sign 3 NDAs when I left. Only one pertaining to the actual job I did. Wonder why? Because they ARE biased. If you even heard HALF of the crap that goes on behind the scenes then it would be a different story. Even though, liberals typically are so blinded by thier agenda that most wouldnt care.
I dont "need" insider privledges. In fact. That is what made me a) stop being a democrat. b) start paying attention to what is going on with the media.
And you think I havent researched? You may be sheepish enough to change your point of view without checking everything out, I howerver, am not. I have read tons of absolute crap from Michael Moore and cronies, which is about as left as I can stand without barfing. Granted, they occasionally get it right, and tell the whole story. But I would say you have about a 70% chance of getting the results of thier agenda over what the real story is.
If you want to continue to just believe everything you hear on the Liberal News Network then fine, that is your issue. Just dont tout it as anything more credible as the National Enquirer, because it isnt.
thats the sad truth. i never thought Bush was as conservative as he would like most of us to believe.
and i'd rather avoid a kerry administration because i dont want to hear his useless rhetoric about social programs and how they're going to benefit us sooooooo much. in all probability, he'll just throw more money at the problem and create more bureaucracy. something this country does not need more of.
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