Employers: Entry-Level Applicants Are Just About Useless

[charrison]

Also, in what part of the country do senior engineers make $90k? That's pretty much entry level here on west coast.

Depends on cost of living. 90K in Texas is pretty decent for senior developer. It costs a lot more to live on the west coast, so you get paid more. Does not mean you are better off however..

 

[Zaap]

Further I refuse to believe on 16% think critical thinking skills are important.

Sadly, I'm surprised it's that high a percentage.

All the time I see stunning displays of people that absolutely have *never* been required to do any form of critical thinking in their lives, and therefore never developed it. We've also created a society that often allows such people to muddle by on autopilot, and so even the old fashioned 'school of hard-knocks' doesn't apply anymore.

And by the way, this isn't a classist thing in my view. Many employers/executives/management types are the same way; no capacity for critical thought. Many grew up in 'nerf world', sailed into a push-button/no-thought-required job, brainlessly landed in management, and now think nothing of expecting other people more skilled and qualified than they are to slave away for peanuts. It cuts both ways.

But yeah, 16% doesn't strike me as too low.

 

[Whiskey16]

employeers are just as bad. Entry level now means you have 3-4 years of experience but get paid like an intern

I interpret that as your call for union support, then.

Management get the unions they deserve.

 

[Farang]

I'm a December '08 grad, as bad as it gets really. There has been a lot of generalizations in this thread either blaming employees, companies, or both.

Having witnessed it over the past few years, I can say the trend is towards freelancing in one way or another. It's smarter for a worker to spread out his client base to protect against downturns rather than commit to one client (employer), given the complete downfall of trust between corporations/employees.

This is positive in some ways because the generation is more entrepreneurial. But I see it as very negative as well because there is less value in the concept of teamwork for the purpose of business/profit. There is an 'I get mine' mentality where a team consists of investors and grunts. It's all very transactional and for both sides there isn't much incentive to do anything more than what increases your paycheck that day.

I see why some see my class as more entitled.. but I think it comes from the independent attitude after the recession. We tend to see through some of the exploitative bullshit, in some cases to our own detriment. You get fucked long enough you start to not see the distinction between slave labor and normal recent graduate paying-your-dues. We see ourselves as equal partners and if you want to exploit our time, fuck you we've figured out how to bill hours on our own and we'll do that instead.

Not speaking for all of course but just a trend I've seen

 

[Oldgamer]

Two things:

1) The only time an employer ever asked about my GPA was to ensure I got a C or better for tuition reimbursement.

2) Businesses have been spoiled by the recession with the availability of exceptionally talented people relative to their postings. Now that the market is starting to correct, they're complaining that candidates only meet 7 of the 10 criteria they are looking for in a job, when five years ago the criteria numbered 6.

I think you are correct. With the number of class action lawsuits that various interns won recently against various Media and IT Companies, for not paying Interns (basically companies tried to cheat Interns the judge rulings found) and in addition many big Companies purposefully classifying employees as contract when they were not, this pretty much means that Companies / Corps have taken advantage of interns and employees for quite some time now. This is now coming back to bite them in the butt. I agree that these Companies have only themselves to blame for the mess of not being able to find qualified individuals. They don't want to invest in their employees anymore, and try to skirt real job training because they don't want to pay for it, nor take time to do it.

 

[Engineer]

I monitor the job market often (have since the 2007 recession cut my long time job) and have noticed a divergence in employers. There are those that still offer better pay and benefits but really do expect the best of employees (employers that have been burned in the past by trying to cheap down the workforce) and then there are those that are increasingly popping up and offering shit wages and benefits and expecting many years worth of experience. Some are even wanting specialized experience that very few possess.

I'm seeing offers from "some" of the employers that are less than what I stated at in 1993 and they want 5 or more years experience to boot. I doubt that these people ever get anyone with real skills as I know how few of people are in my area that do well what I do.

Employers are in for a rude awakening if they are going to continue down that path (unless we import cheap, foreign labor far more than we are now).

 

[OverVolt]

I monitor the job market often (have since the 2007 recession cut my long time job) and have noticed a divergence in employers. There are those that still offer better pay and benefits but really do expect the best of employees (employers that have been burned in the past by trying to cheap down the workforce) and then there are those that are increasingly popping up and offering shit wages and benefits and expecting many years worth of experience. Some are even wanting specialized experience that very few possess.

I'm seeing offers from "some" of the employers that are less than what I stated at in 1993 and they want 5 or more years experience to boot. I doubt that these people ever get anyone with real skills as I know how few of people are in my area that do well what I do.

Employers are in for a rude awakening if they are going to continue down that path (unless we import cheap, foreign labor far more than we are now).

They are trying to do this with the work visas no?

 

[nageov3t]

employeers are just as bad. Entry level now means you have 3-4 years of experience but get paid like an intern

I see that at my company and it bothers the hell out of me.

we have positions sitting open because they're trying to find a candidate with years of experience who's willing to work for peanuts.

if it were up to me, I'd hire a kid fresh out of tech school and within a month I could at least have him trained to where he's completing more work than he's generating (generating work via wasting my time)

 

[piasabird]

Maybe it is the managers that are unprepared idiots. There are so many possible skill sets in IT for example that there are no 2 employers that have the same technology or applications. No one has every skill set that every employer wants. They are just dreaming.

Typically companies fire IT staff when things get tough then they complain that they can not find qualified replacements a year later. This is the reality of why IT staff have no company loyalty. If you want people to be loyal and stay, then you have to pay them like you appreciate them.

 

[Imp]

But....if you graduated with a 4.0 and were in 7 clubs, that means they're supposed to hire you on the spot....because someone with only a 3.5 and in 2 clubs but has extensive job history didn't try hard enough in school....

Its all about the grades man.....don't show me your resume unless you tell me your GPA first.

It's all about the clubs and shit, yo. That's what it looks like because the new people they keep hiring at my company usually have limited relevant work experience, but they were on teams and managed the campus bar or something!

I'm a December '08 grad, as bad as it gets really. There has been a lot of generalizations in this thread either blaming employees, companies, or both.

Having witnessed it over the past few years, I can say the trend is towards freelancing in one way or another. It's smarter for a worker to spread out his client base to protect against downturns rather than commit to one client (employer), given the complete downfall of trust between corporations/employees.

Et al.

Graduated May 2008. I didn't really pay attention to what was going on then. I've always thought I just missed the boat on applying for a job during the designated hiring period (Fall/Spring), but that's probably not entirely true. It's not like I had much success the Fall/Spring after I graduated.

Since then, I've been underemployed at my main job. At another side job, I've been "properly" employed, but paid well below the industry average wage as a "contractor" on paper - a court would probably say otherwise.

At this point, I'm already jaded and don't want to play in the rat race anymore. I'm focused on developing alternative income sources while going through the motions at my 9-5 job. Don't get me wrong, I do my best work at work. But I haven't been rewarded for it, and I don't see that changing any time soon. Better to try to rely on stuff that's actually under my control (i.e. own business/company).

 

[Anubis]

employeers are just as bad. Entry level now means you have 3-4 years of experience but get paid like an intern

yep theres that and being hired as a contract employee with the promise of being made permanent at some point which never comes. Do all the work for less pay and no benefits.

Happens where i work, yet we hire a lot of people right out of college who don't know shit. but they went to a good school so it makes us look good

/shakes head

glad im out of this in another month or so

 

[lotus503]

What you need is company loyalty to employees. If you plan to keep an employee long-term then investing in them makes sense.

I would say that companies also need employee loyalty. But I think the original problem is caused by companies treating employees as "disposable" and people acting accordingly.

Great Point, my company treats the employees really well, not just as a matter of compensation but also letting employees know whats going on with he company, everyone gets input. No feedback or idea is dismissed. That coupled with equity has most of the company willing to do whatever needs to happen to be successful.

We had a service outage about a month back, the entire Executive team got on the phones and took calls from customers. sitting next to tier one support folks.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

It's BS. Employers can claim that entry-level applicants are worthless simply because there is a large oversupply of both entry-level applicants and people with experience for college-education-requiring jobs.

At the rate we're going, eventually you will need a Masters degree in Janitorial Science to get a job as a janitor.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Jobs need to be designed to clearly have a senior and a junior employee. The latter learning from the former. Employers that violate this principle are taking short cuts and when it is violated in mass they will severely damage the labor market.

No problem. They'll just send the jobs overseas or they'll fill them with workers on visas.

Business owners want to keep 100% of the revenue if they can while paying the employees pennies, and if that means turning the USA into an impoverished third world nation full of slaves working for low wages, then so be it, they'll do it.

 

[Engineer]

It's BS. Employers can claim that entry-level applicants are worthless simply because there is a large oversupply of both entry-level applicants and people with experience for college-education-requiring jobs.

At the rate we're going, eventually you will need a Masters degree in Janitorial Science to get a job as a janitor.

In the case that I posted above, there are no supply at all of people (essentially) that do what I do yet there are still an increasing number of employers that are breaking away and going down, down, down on their offers. With that said, I have no idea if they are ever getting anyone (much less someone with good experience) to take the job. I know through recruiters that they struggle like hell to fill jobs like mine. Hell, many of them call me for the position and will ask me what to look for when I turn them down.

 

[StrangerGuy]

One have to drink the Romney koolaid if they think this problem lies in anywhere but the employers.

There is also a disturbing trend that recruiters are far more concerned about the candidates' ability to master their interviews than their actual ability to the job.

 

[ccbadd]

Yep, so many times I have overheard managers stating "you can always be replaced". Now, it generally comes off as a joke but how the heck do they expect you to work in that environment.

The reality is that many employers refuse to invest in an employee. Sometimes they are cheap, other times they view "keeping the lights on" enough and want to keep the money/savings in their pocket. I've seen cases were they hire someone who is excellent at a job and expect them to be the go-to individual when an issue occurs.

My experience has been the opposite. I have never work for a company that was not loyal to the "best" employees. Low skill employees on the other hand, not so much. Moral of the story is "make yourself essential". This takes work on your own time to learn skills and drive to be the best.

 

[ccbadd]

No problem. They'll just send the jobs overseas or they'll fill them with workers on visas.

Business owners want to keep 100% of the revenue if they can while paying the employees pennies, and if that means turning the USA into an impoverished third world nation full of slaves working for low wages, then so be it, they'll do it.

This is just stupid. The vast majority of employers, especially small business, want life long employees and will do all the CAN do to keep them. Just makes good business sense.

 

[SheHateMe]

Wow I remember being told that's how things work when I was a kid in school as well. Turns out I don't think I've ever been to an interview where I was asked my GPA. Interviewers seem to care about what skills you have, what you've accomplished for previous employers, and what you can do to make their life easier.

I've never been asked either. Never had to submit a transcript either. Every job and every internship I ever got was from networking. The current internship I'm in....I didn't even fill out an application.....I knew who the hiring managers were, I kept in contact with them. Lunch here and there, chatting on skype, liking a cat photo on FB.....


Its who you know, man. 😎

 

[unokitty]

Having witnessed it over the past few years, I can say the trend is towards freelancing in one way or another. It's smarter for a worker to spread out his client base to protect against downturns rather than commit to one client (employer), given the complete downfall of trust between corporations/employees.

This is positive in some ways because the generation is more entrepreneurial.

... Not speaking for all of course but just a trend I've seen

With a few exceptions, when a person graduates from University, they are educated but they are not trained.

It used to be that an employer would take an interest in a new graduate and invest in their training. Not so much anymore.

Rather than titling this thread "Entry-Level Applicants Are Just About Useless", it could have been titled 'Employers Refuse to Invest in New Graduates."

From my perspective, many of these articles are just pandering to the Legislature to allow more people from outside the country to come in and work for cheaper ...

I have also noticed the trend that Farang identifies. It seems similar to the Modern Guild Structure that some talk about. For example:

Scholars from the history of ideas have noticed that consultants play a part similar to that of the journeymen of the guild systems: they often travel a lot, work at many different companies and spread new practices and knowledge between companies and corporations.

Anyway, my perception is that the relationship between employers and employees is changing. (Particularly in IT.)

And like all changes, some will benefit from it. And some won't.

Uno

 

[IamDavid]

My company is constantly looking to hire around 25 people to fill "entry" level positions and I have to agree the candidates are truly pathetic. It's definitely not a high paying job to start but it can quickly grow into a nice, stable life. I'm glad anti discrimination laws only apply to the old.... I won't hire under 25.

 

[Tweak155]

My company is constantly looking to hire around 25 people to fill "entry" level positions and I have to agree the candidates are truly pathetic. It's definitely not a high paying job to start but it can quickly grow into a nice, stable life. I'm glad anti discrimination laws only apply to the old.... I won't hire under 25.

You get what you pay for. Goes with employees too. I don't have time to wait for a company to decide I'm worth it, it enables them to control my life. Lay it out in the contract that I get X raises in Y time then fine.

 

[shortylickens]

I got loads of electronics training and butt-tons of experience. I cant get any kind of job right now, and yet theres still assholes complaining all their applicants are useless.

Fuck US employers. They use any excuse they can to ship jobs overseas or hire illegals here.

 

[SheHateMe]

I got loads of electronics training and butt-tons of experience. I cant get any kind of job right now, and yet theres still assholes complaining all their applicants are useless.

Fuck US employers. They use any excuse they can to ship jobs overseas or hire illegals here.

What field do you work in?

 

[sm625]

At perhaps a bad time in U.S. employment, it seems there's a "perception gap" between what workers think they're worth on the job and how employers see them.

What you talking about bad time in US employment? We are in the middle of a booming economy, courtesy of The Frickin Bernank. There are jobs everywhere. The unemployment rate has fallen 30% in 2 years. How dare you uneducated swine spread false perceptions about this wonderful economy.