Emergency research

[ribbon13]

The Abit WN-2S+ supports dual opterons, unbuffered ram, and overclocking. But it's not out yet

If he was un upgrader, I'd say get a dually board, and a single CPU for now, on a K8WE. That would provide oodles of upgradability.

I'll see if I can find out who has the best prices and international shipping.

 

[Tiorapatea]

Originally posted by: mshan
Directron ships internationally:

http://www.directron.com/shipping.html#06

I think they are a pretty good retailer. Others could probably chime in on better e-tailers that ship internationally.

Nice to know but they require payment in US dollars by cashier's cheque or wire transfer, there will be customs' duties and they state that "shipping cost is often prohibitively high for international orders". Not sure how that would pan out cost-wise and then you have the difficulty of RMAs, contractual disputes etc..

 

[mshan]

Wow, guess we don't realize how lucky we are in the states.

 

[ribbon13]

Yeah

My friend from the U.K. came and spent a week with me just to order his computer here, build it, and say it was a gift from me. ^^

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Taking a short break from my physics

Are there any good options where you can get a pre-built system in the UK for cheaper? Like a Dell or Alienware equivalent with good value?

(I have no idea, just throwing that out there)

 

[Tiorapatea]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Taking a short break from my physics

Are there any good options where you can get a pre-built system in the UK for cheaper? Like a Dell or Alienware equivalent with good value?

(I have no idea, just throwing that out there)

Yes, Dell do have good deals from time to time (not as good as US though). I will definitely have to compare this self-build proposal with Dell before I go ahead. On the other hand, I hate Dell, so I'm hoping I can beat 'em. Other suppliers are JAL Computers and Mesh Computers.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Just messed around a Mesh for a while... this one looks like it would be a much better performer than your base system you suggested:

Case: MESH ATX MidiTower with tool free access
Operating System: Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition
Motherboard Features: ASUS A8N-E Mainboard - DDR400, GB LAN, SATA, PCIEX16
Processor: Upgrade to AMD Athlon 64 3800+ (939PIN) at £75
Memory: Upgrade to 2048MB PC3200 DDR (400MHz) at £199
Hard Drives: Upgrade to 2x 250GB Serial ATA (150MB/s) Ultra Fast Hard Drives at £110
Video Card: 256MB ATI Radeon X800 XL - TV Out + DVI - PCI Express
Monitor 1: 19'' TFT Flat Panel Monitor - DVI & Analogue (DVI cable sold separately)
Optical Drives: SONY 16x Dual Layer DVD-Re-Writable +R/-R/RW
Sound: New - Creative Soundblaster AUDIGY 2 ZS
Speakers: New Creative Labs I-Trigue 2.1 - 3200 at £10
Modem: 56kbps V92 Modem, featuring data and fax.
Keyboard & Mouse: Upgrade to Logitech Cordless Desktop Keyboard & Rechargable Mouse at £10
Video Editing: Pinnacle Studio 9 SE (OEM)
Software: Microsoft® Works® 8.0
Wi-Fi: ASUS 54MBps 802.11G Wi-Fi PCI Card
Game Selection: X-treme-4 Games Bundle - Nostromo Speedpad, Joystick, Games (3 titles)
Warranty: 3 Years - Parts & Labour - Back-to-Base Warranty (Mainland UK only - Terms Apply)
Delivery: Insured Del within Mainland UK (+ £39) at £39

Comes to 1719 delivered


Has the 19" TFT he wanted
3800+ vs your 3000+
256mb X800XL vs your 6600gt
Still 2gigs memory
2 x 250gig drives vs your 2 x 160gig
nicer soundcard, but worse speakers

comes with 3 year warranty = no hassle for you when it breaks

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Or how about this bad boy... add in some decent speakers and you're in business for 1466 shipped

Matrix 3800+ Special
(Base Price: £ 850.21 ex VAT)
Case: MESH ATX MidiTower with tool free access
Operating System: Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition
Motherboard Features: ASUS A8N-E Mainboard - DDR400, GB LAN, SATA, PCIEX16
Processor: AMD Athlon 64 3800+ (939PIN)
Memory: Upgrade to 2048MB PC3200 DDR (400MHz) at £199
Floppy + Portable Storage Options: 1.44MB Floppy Drive
Hard Drives: Upgrade to 2x 200GB Serial ATA (150MB/s) Ultra Fast Hard Drives at £80
Video Card: Upgrade to 128MB nVIDIA 6600 GT - TV Out + DVI - PCI Express at £50
Monitor 1: 19'' TFT Flat Panel Monitor - DVI & Analogue (DVI cable sold separately)
Optical Drives: Upgrade to 16x DVD-ROM + SONY 16x Dual Layer DVD-Re-Writable +R/-R/RW (2 Drives) at £20
Sound: Onboard 5.1 Surround Sound 6 Channel Audio
Speakers: Creative Soundblaster SBS260 Speakers
Modem: 56kbps V92 Modem, featuring data and fax.
Keyboard & Mouse: Upgrade to Logitech Cordless Desktop Keyboard & Rechargable Mouse at £10
Video Editing: Pinnacle Studio 9 SE (OEM)
Software: Microsoft® Works® 8.0
Wi-Fi: ASUS 54MBps 802.11G Wi-Fi PCI Card
Warranty: 3 Years - Parts & Labour - Back-to-Base Warranty (Mainland UK only - Terms Apply)
Delivery: Insured Del within Mainland UK (+ £39) at £39

 

[Tiorapatea]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Just messed around a Mesh for a while... this one looks like it would be a much better performer than your base system you suggested:

Case: MESH ATX MidiTower with tool free access
Operating System: Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition
Motherboard Features: ASUS A8N-E Mainboard - DDR400, GB LAN, SATA, PCIEX16
Processor: Upgrade to AMD Athlon 64 3800+ (939PIN) at £75
Memory: Upgrade to 2048MB PC3200 DDR (400MHz) at £199
Hard Drives: Upgrade to 2x 250GB Serial ATA (150MB/s) Ultra Fast Hard Drives at £110
Video Card: 256MB ATI Radeon X800 XL - TV Out + DVI - PCI Express
Monitor 1: 19'' TFT Flat Panel Monitor - DVI & Analogue (DVI cable sold separately)
Optical Drives: SONY 16x Dual Layer DVD-Re-Writable +R/-R/RW
Sound: New - Creative Soundblaster AUDIGY 2 ZS
Speakers: New Creative Labs I-Trigue 2.1 - 3200 at £10
Modem: 56kbps V92 Modem, featuring data and fax.
Keyboard & Mouse: Upgrade to Logitech Cordless Desktop Keyboard & Rechargable Mouse at £10
Video Editing: Pinnacle Studio 9 SE (OEM)
Software: Microsoft® Works® 8.0
Wi-Fi: ASUS 54MBps 802.11G Wi-Fi PCI Card
Game Selection: X-treme-4 Games Bundle - Nostromo Speedpad, Joystick, Games (3 titles)
Warranty: 3 Years - Parts & Labour - Back-to-Base Warranty (Mainland UK only - Terms Apply)
Delivery: Insured Del within Mainland UK (+ £39) at £39

Comes to 1719 delivered


Has the 19" TFT he wanted
3800+ vs your 3000+
256mb X800XL vs your 6600gt
Still 2gigs memory
2 x 250gig drives vs your 2 x 160gig
nicer soundcard, but worse speakers

comes with 3 year warranty = no hassle for you when it breaks

Hmmm. Well, I'd hope to get to 2.4 GHz as an overclock. Maybe the 3800+ would have more headroom though. The thing is, do we even know what PSU they have in there? Or how hot this baby will run? This is the sort of thing that makes me nervous and why I like to build unless there is a crazy price difference...

Not sure about ATI really, just figured that nvidia ruled the amateur workstation arena. Still, it's worth GBP 100 more than the 6600GT. The drives would cost about another GBP 90 on my budget. I'd have to look at their TFT quality. Audigy is nice. Thing is, by the time you research what components people have used, and when you consider that they will change these components as supplies dictate (when component is not specifically headlined), it can be hard to figure out where you stand.

Thanks for the input. As a matter of fact, last time I went through this process with this guy, I ended up recommending a Mesh, which he is still using about seven years later. Since then, though, I built my own nforce2 with Mobile Athlon and I like the fact that I know my components. We'll see.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

That 3800+ special looks like a bargain to me based on what you were planning on spending.

I agree the PSU is a bit of a mystery, but you could always change that out if you wanted to.

Here in the US a 3000+ is $150 and a 3800+ is $385. I'd rather take a garaunteed 3800+ than overclocking a 3000+.

 

[Tiorapatea]

I'd rather take a garaunteed 3800+ than overclocking a 3000+

It does look tempting and I trust Asus boards more than most for nforce4. Save me building it too. But I was looking forward to getting into the uber-cooling setup :brokenheart: .

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: Tiorapatea

I'd rather take a garaunteed 3800+ than overclocking a 3000+

It does look tempting and I trust Asus boards more than most for nforce4. Save me building it too. But I was looking forward to getting into the uber-cooling setup :brokenheart: .

Well... if you get that one that's 1466, you could replace their case/powersupply/cooling solution within your budget. You could sell whatever they give you at Mesh to someone who's building a lesser system.

 

[sandorski]

If you want the system to last 5 years, do not even consider overclocking. Something will die, the motherboard's death is assured.

 

[Tiorapatea]

Originally posted by: sandorski
If you want the system to last 5 years, do not even consider overclocking. Something will die, the motherboard's death is assured.

Is this a troll?!

My approach is to buy the best cooling, buy trusted components like good PSU and motherboard, try to figure out a reasonable method of finding a chip type that will overclock somewhat reliably (e.g. the Mobile Bartons), and then be very conservative in voltage adjustments. For example, my Barton is running at 1.475V (below desktop standard of 1.65) at 1940 MHz. This is because I found a nice stable overclock on a 10x multiplier and I haven't had the time yet to mess around with this - stability is KING. What I do get is a system that runs very cool (around 40 Celsius under load) and I might go lower once I get around to buying a 92mm fan for my Thermalright SLK900A (I have 80mm).

In practice, a lot of processors of the same design hit a wall at approximately the same point on reasonable voltages, but yes one can end up buying a dud.

 

[Tiorapatea]

Also, the beauty of overclocking the Athlon64, as I understand it from Zebo, is that there is no penalty from running memory asynchronously and no large gain from exceeding PC3200 in memory bandwidth. You therefore can keep the motherboard running at specification and all you need to worry about is the processor. Plus no need for expensive memory. The only catch is that you want to stick to two DIMMs so that you can run 1T command rate. This makes it very good value to overclock.

 

[sandorski]

No troll. There's no way to gaurantee 5 years of use from an overclock, it shouldn't even be considered. It'll run completely stable for awhile, but eventually the motherboard will get flakey. 5 years is a long time, even running everything at stock.

 

[Tiorapatea]

Originally posted by: sandorski
No troll. There's no way to gaurantee 5 years of use from an overclock, it shouldn't even be considered. It'll run completely stable for awhile, but eventually the motherboard will get flakey. 5 years is a long time, even running everything at stock.

I agree that 5 years may be too long for any system, regardless of whether one is overclocking. I'm not sure I would agree that conservative overclocking with good components will significantly affect MTBF though.

Obviously, hard data is lacking on this but overclocking a CPU within spec of its own processor family, with good power and cooling and a quality motherboard would, in my estimation, be likely to give you better life than an off-the-shelf system running stock at the same clock speed.

 

[J Heartless Slick]

Originally posted by: Tiorapatea
Kensai: I'm hoping that processor clock and 1T command rate will be the major factors. But I'm new to overclocking Athlon64s.

airfoil: Yes, you have a point. But isn't it pretty much luck of the draw in predicting relative overclocks of 3000 and 3200 chips. I certainly won't fall short for lack of cooling.

Unless they request it, do not overclock systems you build for other people.

 

[Tiorapatea]

Originally posted by: J Heartless Slick
Unless they request it, do not overclock systems you build for other people.

Well, he hasn't exactly _requested_ it. He has set a budget and is relying on me to know what's best, balancing all the thousands of issues that arise when specifying an entire system. I think overclocking can help get the best value for him - as you can see I do not just tell him the first thing that comes into my head.

I think I've decided on nforce4 now. I'm leaning towards the Asus A8N-E or Abit AN8 or DFI Ultra. I can pick up an Enermax Noisetaker EG495AX for £70, which I don't think I can improve on in the UK in terms of being "PCI Express ready" and fundamentally good quality. Still looking for the right case. I'm trying to find the Antec SLK-3000B, the one without PSU but no luck so far.

 

[Tiorapatea]

Actually, I just found it! So y'all can stop searching through the night for it .

 

[Tiorapatea]

OK, just to summarise this thread, this is what I finally ordered:

Final system:
Antec SLK3000B GBP 40
Seasonic SS-401HT PSU GBP 70
Athlon Winchester 3200 GBP 123
Asus A8N-E mobo GBP 90
Leadtek 6800GT GBP 290
Crucial 2x512MB single-sided GBP 73
2x 200GB Samsung IDE GBP 150
LG GSA-4163 DVD/RW GBP 50
Samsung DVD-ROM GBP 17
Mitsumi floppy/card reader GBP 15
Audigy Platinum 2ZS GBP 120

Thermalright XP-120 GBP 35
Zalman VF700-Cu GBP 24
Swiftech MCX159 GBP 21

Thermal paste:
Arctic silver GBP 5
Arctic Silver Ceramique GBP 5

Nexus 120mm fan x3 GBP 42

Monitor:
NEC 1970NX 19" TFT GBP 350

Keyboard:
Saitek GBP 35

Mouse:
Logitech MX-510 GBP 30

Speakers
M-Audio LX4 2.1 GBP 140

WindowsXP Home OEM GBP 58

Total approx. GBP 1880

As you can see, the budget kinda went out the window. Still, this should be a nice system - wish it were mine. The parts will take a few days to arrive, especially the hard drives from Germany.

 

[Coolin]

Are you a SPCR user or something?

 

[Tiorapatea]

Originally posted by: Coolin
Are you a SPCR user or something?

How did you guess?! I sure hope those guys know what they're talking about . The ultimate user of this system expressed a need for a quiet computer, or as quiet as possible given that it is a powerful machine.

I think the graphics card will be a major source of noise and heat problems, especially because of the way most nforce4 motherboards site the chipset underneath the 16x PCI Express slot. I'm going to have to hack up the Swiftech to get it to fit underneath the 6800GT+VF700-Cu combo. I went with Swiftech because the Zalman NB47J looks to me like it won't give enough cooling in overclocking situations, even with a 120mm fan blowing from the fron of the case (the Nexus doesn't move much air for a fan that size).

I'm a little nervous about hacking everything up before I even know whether the machine will boot but the alternative of installing everything, checking the system works and then uninstalling and reinstalling everything again doesn't really appeal either. Fingers crossed...

 

[bocamojo]

If your friend is truly set on a flat screen, you really should sell him on the Dell 2001FP. No flat screen is better than a CRT in terms of an application like PhotoShop, but this one comes pretty darn close. Also, you get 1600x1200 resolution with this monitor, versus 1280x1024 with most 19" and smaller flat screens. That makes a big difference when your editing photos.

I also second the NEC DVD recommendation. Good quality burner at an affordable price.

Also, if your looking for excellent 2d performance (for photo editing) mixed with good gaming performance, I would venture to say you need an ATI card for this rig.

Lastly, the question of overclocking. I think you'll find most of us in here are overclocking, or at least have overclocked systems in the past. I have been running my P4 OC'd for a couple of years very stable. However, as sandorski said, don't count on it being able to run stable for 5 years like that. Of course, if you don't ramp up the vcore past the processor manufacturers maximum rated values for the particular processor you purchase, you should have few problems.

 

[Tiorapatea]

bocamojo, thanks for your comments.

I understand you point of view on the Dell 2001FP and I certainly looked at that as a possibility. As a matter of fact, it looks like Dell UK have started discounting their LCDs again so a 2001FP would only cost £385.75 as of now.

However, this article gave a fairly convincing argument for choosing an S-IPS panel as a good compromise between colour accuracy and response times (across the whole gamut of grey-to-grey transitions) and, on that basis, I have been looking for that type of panel for my friend's usage pattern. I have also been thinking that for games, a target resolution of 1280x1024 with lots of anti-aliasing etc. may be better than trying to shoot for 1600x1200 and I'm not too sure how the well the Dell would scale down its resolution.

Another thought has been that, should he choose to hang on to his Iiyama 19" CRT, the optimum dual-monitor configuration might be 2 lots of 1280x1024, as I don't think his Iiyama would handle 1600x1200 particularly well. At this point I just don't know whether he will opt to keep two monitors on his desk

Anyhow, it's certainly not an easy decision.

On the NEC DVD, I have read reports that the 3520 is relatively noisy compared with the older 3500 and the LG. Also cdrfreaks gave the LG an Editor's Choice award and it supports DVD-RAM, which could come in handy.

I agree with you about ATI for 2d quality having seen DVI compliance test results but I think that at 1280x1024, any problems in this area are not likely to make themselves visible. On balance, I went with nvidia for the not-so-compelling reasons of its Shader 3.0 support (have read about missing visuals in some games without it) and its relative Linux-friendliness.

On overclocking, I agree with all you say and intend to keep the voltage at stock or certainly no higher than 1.5V.

I am now panicking because I realise that I have chosen four IDE devices and yet I have only two IDE channels. I believe it is best to keep devices on separate channels because only one device can be active on any one channel at any one time. I'm hoping maybe I can run the optical drives off SATA with some kind of adapter, otherwise I will cancel the order for the Samsungs, even though they are the only quiet option at 200GB (SATA version unavailable as of now).