Emergency research

[Tiorapatea]

I have a friend who wants to buy a new rig, in the next few days. I will be building it. These are the details:

Executive summary: nforce3 or nforce4?

1. In UK. Budget is GBP 1500. For those who know US prices, my rule of thumb is that this will probably be equivalent to a $2000 budget. He will go to GBP 1700 if necessary.

2. Needs a full system, including monitor (but no printer). Already owns Photoshop.

3. Priorities: 1. Photoshop, 2. Gaming

4. He is the kind of guy who will not really upgrade. In five years, he will buy a new system. On the other hand, I don't want to rule out upgrades entirely.

5. He has some fixed ideas: e.g. he wants a TFT screen, in spite of my advice that CRT will be better for photo editing. Also, he does not see a need for two screens. However, he has an existing CRT so I hope I can persuade him to run dual head with TFT and CRT and then he can find his own way of working.

6. My own biases: pro-AMD (pro competition); pro linux (nvidia (somewhat)> ATI).

7. I have asked a few FAQ-type questions just because it's been a while since I built a system and there is so much to decide in very little time - I need to start ordering this weekend. If you are offended, please just ignore the FAQ questions and I will try to figure it out somehow.

Thoughts:
I believe he can save a lot by buying the Antec Sonata with Truepower 380W (24A on 12V rail). Separate quality power supplies in the UK are running about GBP 100, whereas the Sonata case + PSU is GBP 90. This is one reason why I am leaning against nforce4 (no 24-pin power, Sonata II and P180 are two months away from UK distribution, I guesstimate). Comments please on running nforce4 boards on Truepower 380. I don't want to build him a cobbled-together type of system but neither do I want to succumb to FUD from DFI or anyone.

Other reason is that, since he will not really upgrade, issues like the stability of early nforce4 boards are looming larger in my mind than the urge to jump on the PCI Express bandwagon.

I also don't believe he should look at SLI on this budget and I am sceptical about the longevity, value and stability of this approach.

On the other hand, the price difference is very small (but see power supply issue above) and it seems crazy to go AGP for a new system when he has no investment in a modern graphics card. Agonising.


Outline system:
Antec Sonata case GBP 90
(includes Truepower 380W)

Justification: He likes restraint in case design (i.e. no Thermaltake). He is somewhat interested in quiet running. I just think this cannot be beaten for the quality case and PSU at this price, in the UK. It's not perfect - I would like a bigger case and a 24-pin power supply but I see no competition _in the UK_. If I need something else for nforce4, I

Athlon Winchester 3000 GBP 105

Justification: I believe AMD have more or less eliminated the gap with Intel on media editing; bang for buck. I hope to get to at least 2.4 GHz on air. On the other hand, I believe Intel is better for stability because they do their own chipsets. Could get 3200 for GBP 140.

Thermalright XP-90/120 GBP 45

Justification: Cooling is always good, no matter whether you are overclocking or not. Will decide between them depending on motherboard constraints. Zalman are good too but I prefer a separate fan. Will all this fit inside a Sonata?

Thermal paste: Arctic silver GBP 5

Justification: Is this still the greatest?

Panaflo/Acoustifan 120mm quiet fan GBP 15

nforce3 250GB GBP 100

Justifiation: this is my area of greatest anxiety. If he is unlikely to upgrade, I reason that AGP will not hold him back. I expect fewer issues with motherboards and Bioses etc. Thanks to Zebo, I believe I understand that to overclock the Winnie, all you really need is a board that is stable at PC3200 speeds and the ability to up the voltage to the CPU, on the basis that the cpu is not starved of memory bandwidth and there is no penalty for running memory asynchronously. Therefore, if I am correct, one should shop on quality (for stability), features (e.g. good sound might save a PCI slot and some money), and
price. My instinct would be to go with Asus or Abit for quality but it seems they don't even do Socket 939 with nforce3 !? Does this mean MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum? Or should I look at Socket 754 - how is overclocking on that platform?

PNY nVidia 6600GT AGP GBP 150

Justification: nvidia for OpenGL; also performance; worried about heatsink stability - are PNY good for this? Can I get video-in with any card on AGP?

2x 1GB Crucial memory GBP 230

Justification: Need 2GB for Photoshop; thanks Zebo for pointing out I don't need memory bandwith for good overclocking. Two sticks chosen for running at PC3200. Has anyone overclocked with these? Will it be harder than 2x512? Any motherboard compatibility issues?

2x 160GB Samsung SATA GBP 160

Justification: If I can get hold of the Seagate 200GB drives then I will. This would be JBOD with a scratch disk for Photoshop. Advice needed on config, e.g do I do (Windows minus swap partition) plus (photoshop scratch disk) on one disk and then (Windows swap) plus data on the other disk?

I don't believe in RAID of any type on consumer-quality motherboard chipsets.

1x DVD/RW GBP 60

Justification: don't know about this. Should I splurge on a Plextor for quality (think big photo archive)? What about economics of dual layer for archive, now and in near future?

1x DVD/ROM GBP 40

Justification: I heard it's good to have two to preserve burner and get straight rips etc. Brand?

1x Floppy GBP 10

Justification: always handy but does cost an external drive bay. I would never go without one.

Monitor - Viewsonic 19" TFT? GBP 350

Justification: I feel sick that he has missed out on the recent Dell UK firesale. I can't even bear to think about it. He seems to think he wants a 19" TFT. He has a 19" Iiyama CRT. I'm tempted to recommend a Dell 2001FP for GBP 550 (I think it was about 300 a few weeks ago!) but really, I don't think consumer-priced TFTs are there yet for photo-editing so why make him spend more? I see him running dual head, using the TFT for ordinary work and the CRT for graphics and gaming. In that case, why spend more? TFT's are great for text work anyway so I don't object to him owning one but, for that application, 19" seems to be enough.

Keyboard+mouse GBP 70

Speakers GBP 100
Klipsch ProMedia GMX A-2.1

Justification: He likes to game and likes to listen to music but on this budget, I can't see an audiophile solution. Bear in mind that many speakers found in the US are simply unavailable over here, e.g. I cannot find Monsoons or Swans. Also, for what is available, price is always double that in the US. He does not like loads of clutter but I will give him a 5.1 option - Logitech Z5300 at GBP 120.

WindowsXP Pro OEM GBP 95

Justification: Well, he has heard of the GIMP but I cannot in all conscience recommend it over Photoshop, especially as he has already bought from Adobe. I don't use Windows but I am recommending the Pro version because I hate crippled products of any kind.

Debian Sarge Free

Things I haven't thought of GBP 30

Justification: there are always cables that you find you are missing and by the time you pay for shipping them, it has cost you money. Also, there is overhead in shipping from different suppliers (ZZF does not deliver to the UK!).

Total GBP 1655

Oops! We're a bit over budget. I had hoped to talk about Dual Opteron 246 with a server board as an alternative but I see there is no cash for that. No room for Wacom or a TV-card either for video-in.

Still, as I said, if I can make a case for it, he will go over 1500, so this system seems to be a reasonable compromise. Comments please.

Edited: formatting

 

[imported_Kensai]

Nice. The only thing different with 2 X 1GB and 2 X 512MB will be your timings, 512MB sticks will overclock better at the same timings as a comparable set of 2 X 1GB.
And yes, AS5 is still the bestest.

 

[airfoil]

With this sort of budget, you're talking about a mid-to high end system that doesn't justify the entry level CPU. I'd say go with the Athlon 64 3200 or better.

He could survive with 1 GB of RAM and if it isn't enough, its a matter of buying some more - not as easy to do with the CPU.

 

[Tiorapatea]

Kensai: I'm hoping that processor clock and 1T command rate will be the major factors. But I'm new to overclocking Athlon64s.

airfoil: Yes, you have a point. But isn't it pretty much luck of the draw in predicting relative overclocks of 3000 and 3200 chips. I certainly won't fall short for lack of cooling.

 

[ComatoseDelirium]

Originally posted by: airfoil
With this sort of budget, you're talking about a mid-to high end system that doesn't justify the entry level CPU. I'd say go with the Athlon 64 3200 or better.

He could survive with 1 GB of RAM and if it isn't enough, its a matter of buying some more - not as easy to do with the CPU.

 

[Matthias99]

From what I've read, 90nm A64s overclock well even on the stock retail cooler, so you could cut out the fancy HSF if you want to save a few bucks (er, quid). The price difference between OEM and retail CPUs is generally quite small. If it turns out you want it later, you can always buy it and swap the coolers.

If you want a system you can keep for years and still be able to upgrade significantly (to, for instance, a dual-core CPU or a next-gen graphics card), you need to go with S939 and PCIe, which means NForce4 or KT890 (or waiting a few months for the new ATI-based boards to become widely available). Also, at least in the US, the 6600GT is notably cheaper in PCI Express than AGP. There's also the X800XL, which is a good deal faster than the 6600GT and not that much more expensive.

You'll be fine with a Truepower 380. You may need a 20->24-pin adapter, but unless you plan on putting 8 gazillion drives in this system, I doubt you will have any problems with a decent PSU.

Keyboard+mouse GBP 70

What the? I know tech stuff is more expensive over there, but a KB/mouse should cost about $20-30, not $100+! Unless you're including a Wacom tablet or the like in this, or he wants some super-fancy wireless keyboard/mouse (generally not a good deal).

1x DVD/RW GBP 60

Justification: don't know about this. Should I splurge on a Plextor for quality (think big photo archive)? What about economics of dual layer for archive, now and in near future?

1x DVD/ROM GBP 40

Justification: I heard it's good to have two to preserve burner and get straight rips etc. Brand?

I recently got an NEC DVDRW. It works fine. I doubt you'd see any difference in "quality" of burns between brands; the media is more important (and you need to make multiple copies of anything you really care about archiving anyway). DL media costs way too much for archiving anything right now, and seems unlikely to get near 2xSL media prices anytime soon.

Also, unless you plan on ripping a *LOT* of stuff, or making many disk-to-disk copies, just get one drive. That's GBP40 you can put towards something else, and if the DVDRW dies in two years (or whatever) from heavy use, I'm sure it'll cost less than GBP40 at that point to replace it (or you can put it towards an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray burner).

As far as the monitor, a lot of newer LCDs have excellent color reproduction; you might want to check out review at THG (Toms Hardware Guide), as they do very thorough LCD reviews, including detailed response time and color calibration analysis. I would lean towards CRT as well for a photo editing/gaming machine, but hey, it's his money...

 

[Tiorapatea]

From what I've read, 90nm A64s overclock well even on the stock retail cooler, so you could cut out the fancy HSF if you want to save a few bucks (er, quid). The price difference between OEM and retail CPUs is generally quite small. If it turns out you want it later, you can always buy it and swap the coolers.

Thanks, matthias99, this is the kind of info I need. Generally, I like to go large on cooling but it definitely gets expensive.

The nforce4 thing is bugging me. I guess the Truepower should handle it but I've been spooked by the DFI threads on this.

The keyboard/mouse thing is because the guy wants to go cordless, despite my recommendation not to do so.

Thanks for the recommendation on NEC DVD/RW and your analysis of media and two drives. This is exactly what I don't have time to look into.

I will look at Toms for the monitor. Thanks again, this help is invaluable.

 

[mshan]

For $2000, couldn't you actually build two computers:

- One optimized around a Pentium 4 "northwood" with hyperthreading for Adobe Photoshop
- another optimized around the Athlon64 purely for gaming?

Don't know how a KVM monitor and keyboard switch would degrade picture quality or gaming performance, but it would be one way to save some money by using just one keyboard and monitor.

 

[Tiorapatea]

For $2000, couldn't you actually build two computers

This seems crazy to me. Let me think about it!

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

"Speakers GBP 100
Klipsch ProMedia GMX A-2.1

Justification: He likes to game and likes to listen to music but on this budget, I can't see an audiophile solution. Bear in mind that many speakers found in the US are simply unavailable over here, e.g. I cannot find Monsoons or Swans. Also, for what is available, price is always double that in the US. He does not like loads of clutter but I will give him a 5.1 option - Logitech Z5300 at GBP 120."

If you can find the older Klipsch promedias, I've read that those are a better set than the GMX set.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: mshan
For $2000, couldn't you actually build two computers:

- One optimized around a Pentium 4 "northwood" with hyperthreading for Adobe Photoshop
- another optimized around the Athlon64 purely for gaming?

Don't know how a KVM monitor and keyboard switch would degrade picture quality or gaming performance, but it would be one way to save some money by using just one keyboard and monitor.

I think the two computers idea is pretty silly. You'd have to get less ram and less of everything for that matter. Two slower processors would have to be used and with the budget for other main components in half, any advantages from a P4 architecture wouldn't matter.

 

[mshan]

Photoshop Machine: (would seem logical that Adobe optimized their software around something as mainstream as the Pentium 4)
Asus P4C800-E Deluxe rev. 2
Intel Pentium 4 3.0c cpu
2 x 512 MB Kingston Value RAM PC3200 dual channel kit (could use faster or more overclockable RAM and overclock the whole system)
80 GB IDE Windows system drive
160 GB SATA drive for storage (or even two 80 GB SATA drives in RAID-0)
Windows XP Home or Pro
Matrox P650 video card
NEC3520 DVD RW drive
Compucase LX-6A19 (http://www.coolcases.com/cart/case_compucase_lx6a19.php) - not as pretty as the Sonata, but much better airflow
19 inch truly flat Trinitron CRT

This is probably slightly more than $1000 new, probably significantly less with used components.

Still leaves $750+ for a very mean a64 gaming machine (create a separate post asking for recommendations for an awesome $1000 A64 gaming system and I think you will get a lot of great responses. Probably could set the budget at $750 and still get a lot of great responses).

 

[mshan]

Also, I've read that for video editing, a lot of times the pentium 4 is faster than A64 systems that are faster on paper, quite possibly because the software is optimized for Pentium 4.

Could also be true for Adobe Photoshop.

And it does seem like gaming software producers would probably target Athlon 64 around which to optimize performance of their games (just a guess).

So, for a $2000 budget, two computers, which individually on paper are slower, may provide as fast or faster real world performance because they are optimized for the uses you intend.

(I am kinda of guessing here, but it does seem reasonable).

 

[Tiorapatea]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
If you can find the older Klipsch promedias, I've read that those are a better set than the GMX set.

Interesting to know but I have only found one Klipsch supplier in the UK and that model is the only one stocked. I am going to call their distributor.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: mshan
Photoshop Machine: (would seem logical that Adobe optimized their software around something as mainstream as the Pentium 4)
Asus P4C800-E Deluxe rev. 2
Intel Pentium 4 3.0c cpu
2 x 512 MB Kingston Value RAM PC3200 dual channel kit
80 GB IDE Windows system drive
160 GB SATA drive for storage (or even two 80 GB SATA drives in RAID-0)
Windows XP Home or Pro
Matrox P650 video card
NEC3520 DVD RW drive
Compucase LX-6A19 (http://www.coolcases.com/cart/case_compucase_lx6a19.php) - not as pretty as the Sonata, but much better airflow
19 inch truly flat Trinitron CRT

This is probably around $1000 new, probably less with used components.

Still leaves around $1000 for a very mean a64 gaming machine (create a separate post asking for recommendations for an awesome $1000 A64 gaming system and I think you will get a lot of great responses. Probably could set the budget at $750 and still get a lot of great responses).

If he spends that $1000 you'd spend on a whole second system rather than getting better components for a single system, he has to waste money getting 2 cases, 2 powersupplies, 2 videocard,.... two of everything.

Why have two mediocre systems now that are going to be obsolete faster when he can have a faster single system now?

Looking at the prices the OP listed, a fairly midranged A64 system is already over his budget.

If it takes GBP1700 to get an A643000+ system with a 6600gt over there, how do you expect him to make that system you suggested plus a "very mean a64 gaming machine" for that cost.

 

[ribbon13]

for $2000 a Dual Opteron is achievable, which are the ultimate photoshop rig.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Is there a certain site you're shopping at in britain that we could look at to see what relative prices are?

 

[Tiorapatea]

Originally posted by: mshan
So, for a $2000 budget, two computers, which individually on paper are slower, may provide as fast or faster real world performance because they are optimized for the uses you intend.

(I am kinda of guessing here, but it does seem reasonable).

mshan, I appreciate your comments but I feel you are being a little speculative. In the end, I just can't see that this would give better performance in either application and besides, I think this friend of mine would just find the whole concept a bit baffling and overwhelming to contemplate. I don't rule out an Intel-only solution by the way - I do have more faith in their overrall platform stability. It's just that I believe it gets expensive to get any performance because of memory bandwidth being really expensive, especially in 2GB.

 

[mshan]

Seems like your friend doesn't necessarily need bleeding edge performance, but a fast system that is stable, reliable, and compatible with any and all software he may use with it.

I would think you could do a system that does photoshop and gaming very well (but not bleeding edge) for under $1000 (Athlon 64 based?).

The others seem a lot more knowledgeable about this than me, but I am researching for a video editing machine for my dad and I seen multiple people say that a pentium 4 seems to encode faster than a faster on paper Athlon64, again (speculating) simply because the software has been optimized around the Pentium 4 architecture.

 

[Tiorapatea]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Is there a certain site you're shopping at in britain that we could look at to see what relative prices are?

I am looking at KustomPCs and CPUCity for the internals but speakers, TFT etc. will probably have to come from other suppliers.

These are not absolutely the cheapest but service quality is excellent. We really need a newegg or a ZZF over here _badly_ but unfortunately I think we just live in an uncompetitive market because of business costs and small market size.

Thanks for your interest.

 

[Amaroque]

Originally posted by: ribbon13
for $2000 a Dual Opteron is achievable, which are the ultimate photoshop rig.

That might be achievable in the US, but not the UK.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: mshan
Seems like your friend doesn't necessarily need bleeding edge performance, but a fast system that is stable, reliable, and compatible with any and all software he may use with it.

I would think you could do a system that does photoshop and gaming very well (but not bleeding edge) for under $1000 (Athlon 64 based?).

The others seem a lot more knowledgeable about this than me, but I am researching for a video editing machine for my dad and I seem multiple people say that a pentium 4 seems to encode faster than a faster on paper Athlon64, again (speculating) simply because the software has been optimized around the Pentium 4 architecture.

If it was just processors and motherboards we're talking....

Ok, P43.0c + a decent motherboard = $300?
Then for the A64... a 3000+ is a basic one plus basic motherboard = $250

Or, you could spend it all on one set and get A643500+ and a nicer motherboard.

That's if you don't even take into account how much you're losing getting a second case/powersupply/optical drives/hard drives/videocard
buying a KMV switch
having the hassle of 2 systems
having to network the 2 systems (maybe)
clutter of 2 systems (OP already said he doesn't want clutter)

If you take into account that you're going to spend another $500 on basic stuff to get the second system running, you're talking the next level of videocard, a step up for cpu and 2 gigs of ram is possible.

This is going off US prices.
I'm really not sure how this is going in Britain.

 

[mshan]

Directron ships internationally:

http://www.directron.com/shipping.html#06

I think they are a pretty good retailer.

For minor stuff, these guys also ship globally:

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/


Others could probably chime in on better e-tailers that ship internationally.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: Tiorapatea

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Is there a certain site you're shopping at in britain that we could look at to see what relative prices are?

I am looking at KustomPCs and CPUCity for the internals but speakers, TFT etc. will probably have to come from other suppliers.

These are not absolutely the cheapest but service quality is excellent. We really need a newegg or a ZZF over here _badly_ but unfortunately I think we just live in an uncompetitive market because of business costs and small market size.

Thanks for your interest.

Cool... I've got to do my physics homework and go to class though
When I get a chance I'll look to see what I'd get if those were my prices.

There are plenty of people on this board that are equal or better qualified to pick out stuff too... I'm still running a 2500+ barton and a 9800pro etc. but I do keep up on benchmarks

 

[Tiorapatea]

Originally posted by: ribbon13
for $2000 a Dual Opteron is achievable, which are the ultimate photoshop rig.

Maybe it could be in the US but I can't see how to do it here. Dual Opteron 244s would run to GBP 320. Then probably GBP 300 for a motherboard. Then about GBP 480 for 2GB of registered memory - or can you get a mobo with support for unregistered memory?

Remember, a lot of cash is going on bits and pieces like keyboard, optical drive, speakers etc.