Electricians: Help me analyze my breaker box.

[HomeBrewerDude]

Originally posted by: Eli
We rent.

This is a learning experience more than anything. I'd just like to figure it out for my own knowledge.

OK, well I've been flipping breakers all day. I'm even more baffled than I was before.

Let me get all my data together..

OK.. OMG, it's so messed up.

1-2 is the stove.

3-4-5 is the water heater, I'm guessing.

6-7-8 is the dryer.

The 9-10 breaker apparently doesen't control anything. The one that has a yellow wire going to it, with no wire hooked to the breaker.

11 is the rigth side of the living room, one of the overhead lights in the kitchen, half of the master bedroom, and the overhead light in the utility room.

12 is the 2nd bedroom, bathroom, hallway, and overhead light + 1 outlet in the master bedroom.

13-14 is the fridge, washer, the 2nd overhead light in the kitchen, one outlet in the kitchen, and the stove hood light/fan.

15-16 seems to only control yet another outlet in the kitchen, in this case our microwave and toaster.

17-18 seems to control only a single outlet in the utility room. It's also by the water heater, so it might control that too.. but I thought the water heater was 220V.

And finally, 19-20 is the garage/shop.

Wow.... just, wow.

i was with you on the 1-2, but you lost me after that.

I only see 15 breakers, and two of those appear to only control the bottom half of the box, so only 13 breakers.

1 ] . [ 10
2 ] . [ 11
3 . 12
4 . 13
5 .
6
7 .
8 . 14
9 . 15

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: HomeBrewerDude

Originally posted by: Eli
We rent.

This is a learning experience more than anything. I'd just like to figure it out for my own knowledge.

OK, well I've been flipping breakers all day. I'm even more baffled than I was before.

Let me get all my data together..

OK.. OMG, it's so messed up.

1-2 is the stove.

3-4-5 is the water heater, I'm guessing.

6-7-8 is the dryer.

The 9-10 breaker apparently doesen't control anything. The one that has a yellow wire going to it, with no wire hooked to the breaker.

11 is the rigth side of the living room, one of the overhead lights in the kitchen, half of the master bedroom, and the overhead light in the utility room.

12 is the 2nd bedroom, bathroom, hallway, and overhead light + 1 outlet in the master bedroom.

13-14 is the fridge, washer, the 2nd overhead light in the kitchen, one outlet in the kitchen, and the stove hood light/fan.

15-16 seems to only control yet another outlet in the kitchen, in this case our microwave and toaster.

17-18 seems to control only a single outlet in the utility room. It's also by the water heater, so it might control that too.. but I thought the water heater was 220V.

And finally, 19-20 is the garage/shop.

Wow.... just, wow.

i was with you on the 1-2, but you lost me after that.

I only see 15 breakers, and two of those appear to only control the bottom half of the box, so only 13 breakers.

1 ] . [ 10
2 ] . [ 11
3 . 12
4 . 13
5 .
6
7 .
8 . 14
9 . 15

Yeah, lol, I just realized it would be very confusing to you guys since I was going by the labeling on the outside panel .. which is removed in the pic. Sec.

here's a pic explaining the breaker numbering

 

[Ornery]

You did take care of that reversed polarity issue...

• Text
  
• Text

...didn't you?

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Ornery
You did take care of that reversed polarity issue...

• Text
  
• Text

...didn't you?

No, that's kinda what this is addressing.. I wanted to make sure everything was "right" at the breaker box first.

Which looks like a definite "no"?

 

[skyking]

Eli, you are really barking up the wrong tree with this one. You rent. Anything you do in there, anything at all adds to your liability in this issue. If your house catches fire and causes damage or injury, you are left wide open by this post and these pictures.
If you want to get this fixed, delete those web pics, let this thread die, and tell the landlord you got shocked. He will have to get someone over to look at it, sooner or later. Keep on him till he does.
The old fabric insulated wire on the lower left side of the box is the big problem. It never had a third wire to begin with, and new wiring needs to be run to a proper box, as outlined by sharkeeper and others.
IF you are in one of those informal landlord/renter relationships, offer to help patch up the walls after a certified electrician runs the new wire to the new outlets. Don't mess with that wiring any more, don't go back and flip breakers, or try to troubleshoot it somehow. You can't troubleshoot the lack of the third wire. You cant troubleshoot the lack of a proper nuetral leg from the disconnect/meter.
I'd stop by when I was in town, but your pictures tell the tale quite well. There is no fixing that as-is.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: skyking
Eli, you are really barking up the wrong tree with this one. You rent. Anything you do in there, anything at all adds to your liability in this issue. If your house catches fire and causes damage or injury, you are left wide open by this post and these pictures.
If you want to get this fixed, delete those web pics, let this thread die, and tell the landlord you got shocked. He will have to get someone over to look at it, sooner or later. Keep on him till he does.
The old fabric insulated wire on the lower left side of the box is the big problem. It never had a third wire to begin with, and new wiring needs to be run to a proper box, as outlined by sharkeeper and others.
IF you are in one of those informal landlord/renter relationships, offer to help patch up the walls after a certified electrician runs the new wire to the new outlets. Don't mess with that wiring any more, don't go back and flip breakers, or try to troubleshoot it somehow. You can't troubleshoot the lack of the third wire. You cant troubleshoot the lack of a proper nuetral leg from the disconnect/meter.
I'd stop by when I was in town, but your pictures tell the tale quite well. There is no fixing that as-is.

laff...

I'm not really going to touch anything. I wanted to see if I could fix the grounding problem easily.

Nobody is going to know that I opened the breaker box.. except all of you.

There is nothing wrong with flipping breakers to figure out exactly what each one controls. If anything, it will make the situation safer.. Now I know where I can offload some of the heavier loaded circuits.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even with the lack of grounded outlets, appliances still shouldn't be hot? So I was trying to see if there was a simple fix for that.

I checked the fridge plug. Indeed, it's the only plug in the house with 3 prong outlets.

I'm guessing that the black wire from the neutral bus leads to the ground prong on that outlet, just as QuitBanningMe guessed.

As for patching up the walls etc.. I don't even know how the fsck the wire is run. This house is made out of concrete... the walls and floors anyway.

I wish we could buy the place. The property is great.. But the house probably isn't really worth it, it just needs to be flattened so you can start over.. lol

 

[Eli]

So, the breaker with the green wire controls the shop and outlet in the garage.

I have NO fscking clue on this one. I'm going to have to investigate further tomorrow.

At the corner of the roof, some old cloth covered wire in a black sheath comes out and goes to the shop. Inside it goes to a couple of old-ass round style screw in fuses, and then a couple of plugins and lights.

From another part of the roof, a newer white sheathed wire comes out and goes into the shop. The outlet in the garage is a outlet+switch.. I haven't figured out exactly what it hooks up to, as it's difficult to see.. But the switch doesen't do anything as far as I can tell, and both outlets are on the same circuit..... Who knows...

 

[db]

"This is a learning experience more than anything. I'd just like to figure it out for my own knowledge"

Learning what a fool did is of little value. No knowledge to be gained there.

 

[Insane3D]

Originally posted by: db
"This is a learning experience more than anything. I'd just like to figure it out for my own knowledge"

Learning what a fool did is of little value. No knowledge to be gained there.

I think he means he wants to learn how to fix it as opposed to learning how to hook it up like it is now...

 

[Evadman]

Remind me to log in more often so I can laugh along.

I agree with bsobel on the jumpers, I have seen someone do it before instead of buying a J-panel. It is illegal as all hell. I see at least 9 code violations and 1 more possible based on where you live. That is just plain scary. Hell, I haven't seen cloth in a while. Still egal though AFAIK.

No block off plate
Jumpered sub bar
Illegal hot wire color (green)
Illegal neutral wire (black. wtf? of all colors someone picked back?)
3, yes count them, 3 double brekers with missing latches
> max bare on the stipped wires, on just about all of them
> max wires in the conduit on the right, assuming it is 1 inch. Hell, it looks like 3/4. I count 11, max 7.
20 amps on a 14 gauge wire on 2 different circuits (one size small)
30 amps on a 14 gauge wire on 2 different circuits (2 sizes small)
Ground wire is 14 gauge. 14? WTF?! There is a 10 gauge from the stove feeding into a 14? There was some thought on that one.
possible on the nomex.

There is something really screwy going on in that box. I count 9 hots and 7 neutral returns. Where the hell is the other one? Certainly not on the bus bar. Find that one and you may have found your leakage problem.

That box has issues. Mroe issues than me, and I have serious issues.

there isn't even a neutral return

 

[mackle]

Edit: We rent.

Since you guys are renting the house right??? why not let the owner taking care of updating the electrical system in the house. At least update the box. Wow....that thing is a mess

 

[shilala]

Okay Eli, Here's how you isolate the problem and find out which circuit is feeding back to the ground...
Hold your meter on the washer and the waterline. Since you know which breaker it's on, have someone cycle through the breakers flipping them off one at a time.
When the meter zeroes, you'll have found your culprit.
This assumes two things...
1.) That the washer circuit is not the culprit.
2.) That there is only one problem.
If you cycle through all the breakers and still have a problem, you can assume the washer's circuit is the problem and check by running a wire to another piece of equipment that you get zapped on that's not on the same circuit, then check the washing machine circuit by shutting it off.
Let me know what happens.

Not to cause alarm, but there's been some sped traveling the country preaching about the health dangers of stray voltage. I guess it's an exceptionally prevalent problem in rural PA because of the age of the transmission services. I wish I wasn't too lazy to find a link. I don't buy into many tinfoil hat conspiracy theories, but this wacko tossed up some very compelling evidence.

 

[OffTopic1]

Originally posted by: quakefiend420

Originally posted by: Eli
I mean, he painted the bathtub. :frown:

LMFAO

You can paint pretty much anything given the right chemical. Expoxy paint is use to paint enamel & fiberglass tub/sinks (can't remember the name of the paint that is use to paint arcrylic tub).

 

[EyeMWing]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: skyking
Eli, you are really barking up the wrong tree with this one. You rent. Anything you do in there, anything at all adds to your liability in this issue. If your house catches fire and causes damage or injury, you are left wide open by this post and these pictures.
If you want to get this fixed, delete those web pics, let this thread die, and tell the landlord you got shocked. He will have to get someone over to look at it, sooner or later. Keep on him till he does.
The old fabric insulated wire on the lower left side of the box is the big problem. It never had a third wire to begin with, and new wiring needs to be run to a proper box, as outlined by sharkeeper and others.
IF you are in one of those informal landlord/renter relationships, offer to help patch up the walls after a certified electrician runs the new wire to the new outlets. Don't mess with that wiring any more, don't go back and flip breakers, or try to troubleshoot it somehow. You can't troubleshoot the lack of the third wire. You cant troubleshoot the lack of a proper nuetral leg from the disconnect/meter.
I'd stop by when I was in town, but your pictures tell the tale quite well. There is no fixing that as-is.

laff...

I'm not really going to touch anything. I wanted to see if I could fix the grounding problem easily.

Nobody is going to know that I opened the breaker box.. except all of you.

There is nothing wrong with flipping breakers to figure out exactly what each one controls. If anything, it will make the situation safer.. Now I know where I can offload some of the heavier loaded circuits.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even with the lack of grounded outlets, appliances still shouldn't be hot? So I was trying to see if there was a simple fix for that.

I checked the fridge plug. Indeed, it's the only plug in the house with 3 prong outlets.

I'm guessing that the black wire from the neutral bus leads to the ground prong on that outlet, just as QuitBanningMe guessed.

As for patching up the walls etc.. I don't even know how the fsck the wire is run. This house is made out of concrete... the walls and floors anyway.

I wish we could buy the place. The property is great.. But the house probably isn't really worth it, it just needs to be flattened so you can start over.. lol

I'd love to help with the above-mentioned flattening. A deathtrap like that would make a GLORIOUS explosion when I'm through with it. Maybe even rig up your brokeass electrical system as a detonator