Electricians: Help me analyze my breaker box.

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: Eli
Noo, not low voltage.

Since our floors are concrete, you are greeted with a friendly zap whenever you touch anything that is plugged in - if you're in your bare feet.

If I plant my feet into the floor, grab one lead of an LED.. and touch the other lead to something plugged in... it lights

You have a grounding problem. Namely, you don't have one.

 

[shekondar]

Originally posted by: Eli
Noo, not low voltage.

Since our floors are concrete, you are greeted with a friendly zap whenever you touch anything that is plugged in - if you're in your bare feet.

If I plant my feet into the floor, grab one lead of an LED.. and touch the other lead to something plugged in... it lights

My guess is that voltage is being fed onto the ground wire...probably that green wire going to the lower right breaker. Somebody who actually knew what they were doing probably used the other end of the green wire as a ground, when it is really a hot wire.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: shekondar

Originally posted by: Eli
Noo, not low voltage.

Since our floors are concrete, you are greeted with a friendly zap whenever you touch anything that is plugged in - if you're in your bare feet.

If I plant my feet into the floor, grab one lead of an LED.. and touch the other lead to something plugged in... it lights

My guess is that voltage is being fed onto the ground wire...probably that green wire going to the lower right breaker. Somebody who actually knew what they were doing probably used the other end of the green wire as a ground, when it is really a hot wire.

I doubt I'll ever be able to find where the green wire goes, but .. none of the outlets in the house are grounded(they all only have 2 prongs), so....

 

[sharkeeper]

What happens if you connect a 60W bulb from a water pipe to your appliance?

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: sharkeeper
What happens if you connect a 60W bulb from a water pipe to your appliance?

I could try it, but I don't think anything would happen.

I connected my DMM between the dryer and a water pipe, and it read 120VAC.

However, and I guess I was daring, if I put myself inbetween the DMM and the water pipe, it only reads the "normal" 20VAC. I don't think the "leakage" can support a very large load at all. Felt about the same as touching the floor.

 

[sharkeeper]

Well the DMM reads full voltage because its input resistance is so low.

If you could light up a bulb you would have a serious problem!

Ungrounded buildings are dangerous. In a lightning storm this could place you in harm's way.

 

[woowoo]

Connsider moving....

(Or at least having renters insurance)

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

thats messed up.

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: shilala
I've never seen a breaker fed from another breaker the way your yellow-wire breakers are working.

I suspect that for whatever reason, the purpose of the yellow jumpers was to isolate the bottom 7 breakers so they could be turned on/off without turning on/off the master. I can only theorize that someone had wanted to a way to turn off all the non-essential circuits for some reason (during travel?, dunno, weird).

If I'm right, (while we can't see it) the breaker bar from the mains must be split between the top two rows of breakers and the bottom 2 rows. The yellow jumpers provide the connection down the break bar (one per phase).

It also appears you have a number of ground lines being run as neutrals (the bare copper lines at the bottom). Those should run to a shared ground bar (there is actually room for one on the right behind the rats nest or along the right wall. Guessing no grounds in the house? That would explain some of the setup.

Debug that black wire running to the neutral bar AND that green wire running to the last breaker on the bottom right. Most likely somebody who didn't understand why we have color codes wired stuff up, but if not that could definately indicate a dangerous configuration.

Bill

I think you're right on the ball, Bill.
What about the low voltage problem? Bad neutral connection on one side of the panel (top or bottom)?
I've still never seen a panel like that, a subpanel in a panel, but it's really pretty ingenious.
It's starting to like like it's not a big problem.

Noo, not low voltage.

Since our floors are concrete, you are greeted with a friendly zap whenever you touch anything that is plugged in - if you're in your bare feet.

If I plant my feet into the floor, grab one lead of an LED.. and touch the other lead to something plugged in... it lights

You've got a grounding problem.
I used to get lit up from time to time when motor windings would go out and there was no ground for it to go to, or when guys miswired circuits (and didn't have grounds).
You should be able to figure out which circuit is backwards, i.e. load going to neutral or vice versa.
When you charge the neutral side of a fridge or whatever, you are effectively charging the whole body of the machine. When you touch it you complete the circuit to ground and get buzzed. You also effectively charge the rest of the house's neutral lines. By switching the leads and using polarized plugs you can avoid getting zapped all the time.
It'll "harness" the juice and keep it where it's supposed to be.
Your old receptacles probably have the same sized slots. You can fix your problems by replacing the receptacles, making sure you wire the gold screws with the load (black) wires (You'll need a decent understanding of what wires go where and to what breaker).
There's a bit more to it, but it's really super-easy. A little common sense and knowing which receptacles/devices are on which circuits is a big part of getting it done.
Adding an earth ground to the neutral bar would take care of any leftover leakage.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: shilala
I've never seen a breaker fed from another breaker the way your yellow-wire breakers are working.

I suspect that for whatever reason, the purpose of the yellow jumpers was to isolate the bottom 7 breakers so they could be turned on/off without turning on/off the master. I can only theorize that someone had wanted to a way to turn off all the non-essential circuits for some reason (during travel?, dunno, weird).

If I'm right, (while we can't see it) the breaker bar from the mains must be split between the top two rows of breakers and the bottom 2 rows. The yellow jumpers provide the connection down the break bar (one per phase).

It also appears you have a number of ground lines being run as neutrals (the bare copper lines at the bottom). Those should run to a shared ground bar (there is actually room for one on the right behind the rats nest or along the right wall. Guessing no grounds in the house? That would explain some of the setup.

Debug that black wire running to the neutral bar AND that green wire running to the last breaker on the bottom right. Most likely somebody who didn't understand why we have color codes wired stuff up, but if not that could definately indicate a dangerous configuration.

Bill

I think you're right on the ball, Bill.
What about the low voltage problem? Bad neutral connection on one side of the panel (top or bottom)?
I've still never seen a panel like that, a subpanel in a panel, but it's really pretty ingenious.
It's starting to like like it's not a big problem.

Noo, not low voltage.

Since our floors are concrete, you are greeted with a friendly zap whenever you touch anything that is plugged in - if you're in your bare feet.

If I plant my feet into the floor, grab one lead of an LED.. and touch the other lead to something plugged in... it lights

You've got a grounding problem.
I used to get lit up from time to time when motor windings would go out and there was no ground for it to go to, or when guys miswired circuits (and didn't have grounds).
You should be able to figure out which circuit is backwards, i.e. load going to neutral or vice versa.
When you charge the neutral side of a fridge or whatever, you are effectively charging the whole body of the machine. When you touch it you complete the circuit to ground and get buzzed. You also effectively charge the rest of the house's neutral lines. By switching the leads and using polarized plugs you can avoid getting zapped all the time.
It'll "harness" the juice and keep it where it's supposed to be.
Your old receptacles probably have the same sized slots. You can fix your problems by replacing the receptacles, making sure you wire the gold screws with the load (black) wires (You'll need a decent understanding of what wires go where and to what breaker).
There's a bit more to it, but it's really super-easy. A little common sense and knowing which receptacles/devices are on which circuits is a big part of getting it done.
Adding an earth ground to the neutral bar would take care of any leftover leakage.

That's what Ornery said.. that two wires in some outlet, possibly lots, are reversed.

Boy, how fun that will be..

Maybe today I will go around and label each outlet.

 

[Heisenberg]

Holy crap. I gave myself a headache trying to figure out what the hell went where.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Heisenberg
Holy crap. I gave myself a headache trying to figure out what the hell went where.

LOL.....

It is actually a pretty bad picture, but you'd need a dozen different angles to see where all the wires go, since they're so hidden by eachother and such...

Oh well. I'm going to go stare at it some more.

 

[Eli]

What the fsck?

That black wire on the neutral bus goes to our fridge. I never realized that it went to the neutral bus, I thought it went to a breaker.

I have no fscking idea. They ran the wire out the side of the breaker box, along the utility room door frame, behind some cabinets in the utility room, and drilled a hole in the concrete wall behind the fridge.. and apparently it connects to the outlet that's there.

What happened to the original neutral wire?! I have absolutely no fscking clue why the wire connects to the neutral bus instead of a breaker. I have no idea how the fridge even gets power, then........ WTF???



Ugh.

 

[QuitBanningMe]

Originally posted by: Eli
What the fsck?

That black wire on the neutral bus goes to our fridge. I never realized that it went to the neutral bus, I thought it went to a breaker.

I have no fscking idea. They ran the wire out of the side of the breaker box, along the utility room door frame, behind some cabinets in the utility room, and drilled a hole in the concrete wall behind the fridge, and put an outlet there.

But I have absolutely no fscking clue why the wire connects to the neutral bus instead of a breaker. I have no idea how the fridge even gets power, then........ WTF???

It may be "grounded" to neutral since you do not have a dedicated ground. This keeps you from lihgting up when you touch the fridge.

Edit: Just now looking at pic so don't hold me to it.

 

[EyeMWing]

I have a similar problem... I believe ground got disconnected somwhere, we're trying to debug.

 

[RU482]

where's the Neutral coming in?
All I see is phase 1, phase 2 and earth

Also, What the hell is going on with those 2 Yellow wires

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: Eli
What the fsck?

That black wire on the neutral bus goes to our fridge. I never realized that it went to the neutral bus, I thought it went to a breaker.

I have no fscking idea. They ran the wire out the side of the breaker box, along the utility room door frame, behind some cabinets in the utility room, and drilled a hole in the concrete wall behind the fridge.. and apparently it connects to the outlet that's there.

What happened to the original neutral wire?! I have absolutely no fscking clue why the wire connects to the neutral bus instead of a breaker. I have no idea how the fridge even gets power, then........ WTF???



Ugh.

You need to stop posting on ATOT and call an electrician asap. Get that panel sorted out.

 

[sharkeeper]

Do you have a UPS?

Many have an LED that will illuminate indicating a wiring fault!

Of course you may plug it in and the damn thing may start yelling. (insert DANGER WILL ROBINSON ROBOT message here)

ANY CONDUCTIVE chassis of ANY appliance powered by mains should NEVER have potential like that. That place needs to be re-wired and that FPE crap needs to come out and be replaced with a nice Square-D Q series service center.

 

[Umberger]

Get a certified electrician, dude. That wiring is almost certainly against code. That is really bad.

 

[Eli]

We rent.

This is a learning experience more than anything. I'd just like to figure it out for my own knowledge.

OK, well I've been flipping breakers all day. I'm even more baffled than I was before.

Let me get all my data together..

OK.. OMG, it's so messed up.

1-2 is the stove.

3-4-5 is the water heater, I'm guessing.

6-7-8 is the dryer.

The 9-10 breaker apparently doesen't control anything. The one that has a yellow wire going to it, with no wire hooked to the breaker.

11 is the rigth side of the living room, one of the overhead lights in the kitchen, half of the master bedroom, and the overhead light in the utility room.

12 is the 2nd bedroom, bathroom, hallway, and overhead light + 1 outlet in the master bedroom.

13-14 is the fridge, washer, the 2nd overhead light in the kitchen, one outlet in the kitchen, and the stove hood light/fan.

15-16 seems to only control yet another outlet in the kitchen, in this case our microwave and toaster.

17-18 seems to control only a single outlet in the utility room. It's also by the water heater, so it might control that too.. but I thought the water heater was 220V.

And finally, 19-20 is the garage/shop.

Wow.... just, wow.

 

[neutralizer]

Wow, that's organized very nicely.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: sharkeeper
Do you have a UPS?

Many have an LED that will illuminate indicating a wiring fault!

Of course you may plug it in and the damn thing may start yelling. (insert DANGER WILL ROBINSON ROBOT message here)

ANY CONDUCTIVE chassis of ANY appliance powered by mains should NEVER have potential like that. That place needs to be re-wired and that FPE crap needs to come out and be replaced with a nice Square-D Q series service center.

Ahh... yeah,

The panel says Federal Pacific Electric on the front... = FPE?

 

[sharkeeper]

Yes FPE is Federal Pacific Electric.

Mention that to an electrician and you're sure to get a laugh or more!

 

[EyeMWing]

Kill it. NOW. Call the city/county inspector, have them come look. 99.99999999% chance it's against code, they'll smack your landlord and force him to pay an electrician to come fix it before you incinerate in a fire.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: redly1
where's the Neutral coming in?
All I see is phase 1, phase 2 and earth

Also, What the hell is going on with those 2 Yellow wires

That's a good question. I have no idea.