Electricians - generator to house

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: BigJ
AlienCraft, give it up. We're not getting anywhere with this guy.

The funniest part about this is that remember how he made up his own definition for optional standby systems? Take a look at the 15th post in this thread where I quoted the very definition of optional standby systems from the NEC.

They are citing an example where a portable generator is brought to the site and and connected to the optional standby sytem because that system failed.

Difference

Emergency generators- required at facitilites like hospitals, automatically kick on when the power is lost.

Optional standby generator- boss says we lost power, go push the button to start up the generator. Auto transfer switch.

The funny part is you dont know enough about this subject to interpret the basics.

Basics? I know the need to be right is a base need and as such, you're willing to ignore the code, advice of professionals in the business here on this forum and basic common sense in order to do something stupid, unsafe, and potentially deadly. You want to set your house on fire, or electrocute yourself or your buddy, fine, but I'm here representing linemen who have deal with ignorant, selfish, shortsighted homeowners who think that because Jed on the Jobsite said so, it's so..... "Well, Jed, may do something in front of you and the inspector, and something entirely different the rest of the day., he may not have understood exactly what you were asking, or that you would even do something WITHOUT considering the ramifications that he consideres on a daily basis.
I know the basics like NEUTRAL being a current carrying conductor that is still connected to the Power Service, no matter the position of the main breaker and as such, renders your connection out of compliance, unsafe, not a good idea?
The entertaining part is you grasping at starws to come up with something new to support your bogus position.


Here's something supervisors forget, you're not hiring the best, you're hiring the cheapest.

Hey I have no problem with you. This thread is about will it work, then we talked about whether its legal.

I dont agree with you that its illegal, you guys then want to get off on some tangent on whether or not its safe.

Realistically if the main is thrown its safe. I know that people generally discourage this because odds are somebody will run the generator with the main open and cause an incident.

And we do not hire low bidders, we negotaite with contractors who we think will give the best performance.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: bctbct
Optional standby generator- boss says we lost power, go push the button to start up the generator. Auto transfer switch. This is a system, not something that is plugged in at will.

This gets even funnier. Because it specifically outlines the system may be designed as such. Once again, 702.1

702.1 Scope
The provisions of this article apply to the installation and operation of optional standby
systems.
The systems covered by this article consist of those that are permanently installed in their
entirety, including prime movers, and those that are arranged for a connection to a
premises wiring system from a portable alternate power supply.

You are thick arent you.

The senario you are linking is this

Frozen processing plant
Standby power system
Standby generator fails
They truck in on a semi a generator(portable only in that sense)
Generator is then hardwired to the standby power system in place of the failed generator

THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS CONNECTING A 5000W GENERATOR TO A DRYER PLUG

Wrong, you really don't know how to interpret the code, do you?
Portable, Standby, Emergency, Temporary, WHATEVER.... here's the important word....> GENERATOR.
Do you get it now?

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: bctbct
I dont agree with you that its illegal, you guys then want to get off on some tangent on whether or not its safe.

You haven't cited one damn snip of code or piece of information that you found yourself. You've been basing your opinion on snippets of code that I've posted and twisting them to fit whatever opinion you hold.

You're ignorant at best, and dangerous at worst.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: bctbct
I dont agree with you that its illegal, you guys then want to get off on some tangent on whether or not its safe.

You haven't cited one damn snip of code or piece of information that you found yourself. You've been basing your opinion on snippets of code that I've posted and twisting them to fit whatever opinion you hold.

You're ignorant at best, and dangerous at worst.

You have done nothing but post subjective data. You dont seem to understand that all building codes differ from the occupancy type.

Things you can do in your house would never be allowed at a industrial facitlity and vice versa. It would take 20 years of working with the NEC code to properly interpret it most of the time. That is why your links dont mean much, what context is that few paragraphs referencing specifically.

What sells me is a city website that specifically says its unlawful to connect a generator without a transfer switch to a house.

I can find websites that tell you its ok to connect if you open the MB.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Hey I have no problem with you. This thread is about will it work, then we talked about whether its legal.

I dont agree with you that its illegal, you guys then want to get off on some tangent on whether or not its safe.

Realistically if the main is thrown its safe. I know that people generally discourage this because odds are somebody will run the generator with the main open and cause an incident.

And we do not hire low bidders, we negotaite with contractors who we think will give the best performance.

No, It's illegal because, as other have done, you keep forgetting about the neutral, to someone's peril. Remember, it carries the other half of the sine wave that is the A in AC. That C = CURRENT, you know... the stuff that puts the teeth in the bite.
It's also illegal because that cord with two male plugs on it is not an approved wiring method, thus it is not even acceptable at it's MOST BASIC POINT.

Furthermore, the code is not about anything but safety, Fire Prevention specifically so what you see as a tangent, is actually a direct part of the conversation. That you want to dismiss it is normal, for someone who doesn't understand basic AC theory. and who is grasping at straws to maintain a beleagured position.

The practice of SAFETY isn't something that occurs only as required.
It's a template, a screen, through which all actions flow in order to acheive the objectives. If you really belive that you can do things that are patently risky, at will, with abandon, without consequence EVER, you're a fool and belong in a time long past.
Whatever you want to do is fine with me.... I enjoy reading about the latest inclusions to the Darwin Awards.
One hpoes that any damage you do is self inflicted and doesn't fry some Lineman just trying to get the power back on, you know... his JOB.

 

[olds]

Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
Let's change the topic to something safe, what do you guys think of abortion from a religious aspect?

That's a great idea Chris. Or perhaps I can start typing upside down?...

It just looks upside down. Pull you head out and it's right side up again.
:shocked:
:laugh:

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: bctbct

Hey I have no problem with you. This thread is about will it work, then we talked about whether its legal.

I dont agree with you that its illegal, you guys then want to get off on some tangent on whether or not its safe.

Realistically if the main is thrown its safe. I know that people generally discourage this because odds are somebody will run the generator with the main open and cause an incident.

And we do not hire low bidders, we negotaite with contractors who we think will give the best performance.

No, It's illegal because, as other have done, you keep forgetting about the neutral, to someone's peril. Remember, it carries the other half of the sine wave that is the A in AC. That C = CURRENT, you know... the stuff that puts the teeth in the bite.
It's also illegal because that cord with two male plugs on it is not an approved wiring method, thus it is not even acceptable at it's MOST BASIC POINT.

Furthermore, the code is not about anything but safety, Fire Prevention specifically so what you see as a tangent, is actually a direct part of the conversation. That you want to dismiss it is normal, for someone who doesn't understand basic AC theory. and who is grasping at straws to maintain a beleagured position.

The practice of SAFETY isn't something that occurs only as required.
It's a template, a screen, through which all actions flow in order to acheive the objectives. If you really belive that you can do things that are patently risky, at will, with abandon, without consequence EVER, you're a fool and belong in a time long past.
Whatever you want to do is fine with me.... I enjoy reading about the latest inclusions to the Darwin Awards.

Ever connect a live circuit?

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: bctbct
I dont agree with you that its illegal, you guys then want to get off on some tangent on whether or not its safe.

You haven't cited one damn snip of code or piece of information that you found yourself. You've been basing your opinion on snippets of code that I've posted and twisting them to fit whatever opinion you hold.

You're ignorant at best, and dangerous at worst.

You have done nothing but post subjective data. You dont seem to understand that all building codes differ from the occupancy type.

Things you can do in your house would never be allowed at a industrial facitlity and vice versa. It would take 20 years of working with the NEC code to properly interpret it most of the time. That is why your links dont mean much, what context is that few paragraphs referencing specifically.

What sells me is a city website that specifically says its unlawful to connect a generator without a transfer switch to a house.

I can find websites that tell you its ok to connect if you open the MB.

Now you can shut the hell up:

http://www.seattle.gov/light/neighborhoods/nh4_gen.htm

Opening the main breaker to isolate household wiring from the utility's wires is neither legal nor safe. The household breaker does not provide a sufficient gap to ensure isolation of the energy, and the breaker may have been damaged as a result of the outage, creating a dangerous hazard that could cause a fire or electrocution.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: bctbct
I dont agree with you that its illegal, you guys then want to get off on some tangent on whether or not its safe.

You haven't cited one damn snip of code or piece of information that you found yourself. You've been basing your opinion on snippets of code that I've posted and twisting them to fit whatever opinion you hold.

You're ignorant at best, and dangerous at worst.

You have done nothing but post subjective data. You dont seem to understand that all building codes differ from the occupancy type.

Things you can do in your house would never be allowed at a industrial facitlity and vice versa. It would take 20 years of working with the NEC code to properly interpret it most of the time. That is why your links dont mean much, what context is that few paragraphs referencing specifically.

What sells me is a city website that specifically says its unlawful to connect a generator without a transfer switch to a house.

I can find websites that tell you its ok to connect if you open the MB.

Now you can shut the hell up:

http://www.seattle.gov/light/neighborhoods/nh4_gen.htm

Opening the main breaker to isolate household wiring from the utility's wires is neither legal nor safe. The household breaker does not provide a sufficient gap to ensure isolation of the energy, and the breaker may have been damaged as a result of the outage, creating a dangerous hazard that could cause a fire or electrocution.

Yeah I found that about an hpur ago. I found one in CA about a month ago. I also found several power companies that discourage it but never say its illegal, that why I know its not.


Plug appliances directly into an emergency or portable generator. This is the safest way to use a generator. We don?t recommend connection of a generator directly to a breaker panel, fuse box or meter box.

http://www.duke-energy.com/saf.../standby-generator.asp

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Ever connect a live circuit?

Ever see a gladiator movie?

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: bctbct
I dont agree with you that its illegal, you guys then want to get off on some tangent on whether or not its safe.

You haven't cited one damn snip of code or piece of information that you found yourself. You've been basing your opinion on snippets of code that I've posted and twisting them to fit whatever opinion you hold.

You're ignorant at best, and dangerous at worst.

You have done nothing but post subjective data. You dont seem to understand that all building codes differ from the occupancy type.

Things you can do in your house would never be allowed at a industrial facitlity and vice versa. It would take 20 years of working with the NEC code to properly interpret it most of the time. That is why your links dont mean much, what context is that few paragraphs referencing specifically.

What sells me is a city website that specifically says its unlawful to connect a generator without a transfer switch to a house.

I can find websites that tell you its ok to connect if you open the MB.

Now you can shut the hell up:

http://www.seattle.gov/light/neighborhoods/nh4_gen.htm

Opening the main breaker to isolate household wiring from the utility's wires is neither legal nor safe. The household breaker does not provide a sufficient gap to ensure isolation of the energy, and the breaker may have been damaged as a result of the outage, creating a dangerous hazard that could cause a fire or electrocution.

Yeah I found that about an hpur ago. I found one in CA about a month ago. I also found several power companies that discourage it but never say its illegal, that why I know its not.


Plug appliances directly into an emergency or portable generator. This is the safest way to use a generator. We don?t recommend connection of a generator directly to a breaker panel, fuse box or meter box.

http://www.duke-energy.com/saf.../standby-generator.asp

Did you miss this from that site?

Never connect generators to your utility service through receptacles, outlets, breakers, fuses or meter boxes.

Obey all local, state and national electrical and fire codes.

 

[BigJ]

BTW, here's a utility company that says it's not legal:

http://www.garlandpower-light.org/generatorsafe.html

EDIT:
The only safe way to connect a generator to a household circuit is through a transfer switch. Opening a main breaker to isolate household wiring from the utility's wires is neither safe nor legal.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: BigJ


Did you miss this from that site?

Never connect generators to your utility service through receptacles, outlets, breakers, fuses or meter boxes.

Obey all local, state and national electrical and fire codes.

But they dont say its illegal like the state you linked

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: bctbct

Ever connect a live circuit?

Ever see a gladiator movie?

Personally I dont think that is any safer than you think connecting a generator to a house without a transfer switch.

Everyone has an opinion on safety, one of my gripes is when the electricals pull the panel cover leaving all the circuits exposed, but they do it anyway. That is a violation of NEC code btw.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: bctbct
[
Yeah I found that about an hpur ago. I found one in CA about a month ago. I also found several power companies that discourage it but never say its illegal, that why I know its not.

That is the stupidest thing yet.... First off while the local Authority (agency|) Having Jursidiction (AHJ) can override practically anything, or require something that's not stated as being required, the bottom line is the NEC, from which all variances derive.
Secondly.. It's only "legal" to the extent that the AHJ enforces the code accurately, and no one gets hurt or nothing burns.
One fire or shock injury / death, and you may find that local AHJ changing their tune real quick.
Your cavalier attitude is in line with someone who isn't responsible for his actions directly, who is used to plausible deniability, rather than direct accountability.
I hope you don't hurt anyone , doing things your way.

 

[BigJ]

Here's a few utility sites saying you must install a transfer switch:

Here's another utility site:
http://www.portlandgeneral.com...e/generator_safety.asp
-The National Electric Code requires that a transfer switch be installed if you want to power some of your house loads with a generator.

http://www.hwelectric.com/safety/generator.htm
-In compliance with state and local electrical codes, you must install a double-pole, double-throw transfer switch to prevent generator from backfeeding into HWE's system, thus electrocuting any individuals repairing electrical lines.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: bctbct
[
Yeah I found that about an hpur ago. I found one in CA about a month ago. I also found several power companies that discourage it but never say its illegal, that why I know its not.

That is the stupidest thing yet.... First off while the local Authority (agency|) Having Jursidiction (AHJ) can override practically anything, or require something that's not stated as being required, the bottom line is the NEC, from which all variances derive.
Secondly.. It's only "legal" to the extent that the AHJ enforces the code accurately, and no one gets hurt or nothing burns.
One fire or shock injury / death, and you may find that local AHJ changing their tune real quick.
Your cavalier attitude is in line with someone who isn't responsible for his actions directly, who is used to plausible deniability, rather than direct accountability.
I hope you don't hurt anyone , doing things your way.

Yet you are the one that routinely handles live circuits, I think you are projecting your lack of safety concerns onto me.

 

[Cdubneeddeal]

Fuck..wrong thread..

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: bctbct

Ever connect a live circuit?

Ever see a gladiator movie?

Personally I dont think that is any safer than you think connecting a generator to a house without a transfer switch.

Everyone has an opinion on safety, one of my gripes is when the electricals pull the panel cover leaving all the circuits exposed, but they do it anyway. That is a violation of NEC code btw.

I do think a Gladiator movie is safer than connecting a generator to the house. Watching one that is, making one might be rough, although I'm sure SAG has workplace rules up the yin yang....


There is either SAFE or NOT SAFE. Any entertaining of an "opinion" is an opening for disaster.
Is it ok if I'm of the opinion the Laws of Physics are crap and decide to open the door of the 767 at 50K ft?
I don't like connecting live, and when I do, I minimize the risks fully, it's my ass on the line, literally. I don't do just enough, especially when there's LIFE involved.

The discussion about "common yet unsafe work habits of trade workers" is a different topic.
The amount of minutae in The NEC is absolutly mind boggling. If it weren't for the advances in storage technology, We wou'ld be dragging some beat up Code Books to Job sites. There are some items that might, on first read, seem to contra-indicate themselves.
I will say that every job we do gets several reviews of code, materials choice, work methods needed just so we don't have any Inspectors pulling the tag and calling for re-work.

The biggest change lay people are resistant to is the absolute need to replace old, low tempurature rated insulated wiring, especially in commercial settings.
New lighting fixtures can generate quite a bit of heat and can degrade the wire, even while in conduit, to a point where it can short.
You used to be able to down size neutral wires in branch circuits... now you have to upsize them if there will be a lot of computers, etc....

Dude, i'm done with this... Plug it in and fire up the hot tub and turn on your flat screen and party on wayne.
Whatever, do what you want, it's what you do, anyway.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Yet you are the one that routinely handles live circuits, I think you are projecting your lack of safety concerns onto me.

LOL, no, nice try to deflect, though.
I actually am a Qualified Service Person, though, so it's within the job description.

 

[imported_Baloo]

Originally posted by: Specop 007
...sometimes breakers wont pop if power is fed the wrong way through them.

Well this is sure interesting. We are talking about AC here, as in alternating current, not DC. It don't matter how you plug it in, it's AC. AC current goes in both directions each cycle, it's even momentarily zero current twice per cycle. Kinda says something about specop's knowledge of the subject.


Yes, disconnecting the mains will isolate the premises.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Baloo

Originally posted by: Specop 007
...sometimes breakers wont pop if power is fed the wrong way through them.

Well this is sure interesting. We are talking about AC here, as in alternating current, not DC. It don't matter how you plug it in, it's AC. AC current goes in both directions each cycle, it's even momentarily zero current twice per cycle. Kinda says something about specop's knowledge of the subject.


Yes, disconnecting the mains will isolate the premises.

By throwing the Main breaker, or disconnecting SE feeders from the Main Panel ?

 

[AlienCraft]

As reported in today's Sacramento Bee, (registration to their spam site required for link to work)
A PG& E lineman was killed Friday while trying to restore power near Georgetown.

Officials were not yet sure of the cause pending further investigation.

You can bet your ass if they find an improper, illegal or just plain dodgy generator connection, or evidence of one, they will prosecute for negligent homicide.

This is where that back feeding condition as described by Rubycon can get you.

Consider this scenario.... family loses, power has gennie connected to house with NEUTRAL still connected via SERVICE ENTRANCE feeder to pole. Gennie is only run to provide necessary service, in order to conserve fuel, whatever.

Line man checks line for stray V & C . None present because gennie is off, family not home , whatever.

Lineman commences work.

Family returns or whatever, needs power. Fires up gennie, back-feed condition tickles transformer, trannie zaps lineman, and not in the way most Tranny's do.


If there is any justice in this world, the generator will have self destructed from an
'output' point of view, and the family will die a slow. cold lingering death, but I digress...


Unless the Current Carrying Conductors (all of them, not just the "hot" ones) are ISOLATED (disconnected) from the SERVICE FEED, the connection is not proper, is dangerous, and you do so at your own peril and those who would serve the publics interest by working in such miserable conditions as they have been.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft
As reported in today's Sacramento Bee, (registration to their spam site required for link to work)
A PG& E lineman was killed Friday while trying to restore power near Georgetown.

Officials were not yet sure of the cause pending further investigation.

You can bet your ass if they find an improper, illegal or just plain dodgy generator connection, or evidence of one, they will prosecute for negligent homicide.

This is where that back feeding condition as described by Rubycon can get you.

Consider this scenario.... family loses, power has gennie connected to house with NEUTRAL still connected via SERVICE ENTRANCE feeder to pole. Gennie is only run to provide necessary service, in order to conserve fuel, whatever.

Line man checks line for stray V & C . None present because gennie is off, family not home , whatever.

Lineman commences work.

Family returns or whatever, needs power. Fires up gennie, back-feed condition tickles transformer, trannie zaps lineman, and not in the way most Tranny's do.


If there is any justice in this world, the generator will have self destructed from an
'output' point of view, and the family will die a slow. cold lingering death, but I digress...


Unless the Current Carrying Conductors (all of them, not just the "hot" ones) are ISOLATED (disconnected) from the SERVICE FEED, the connection is not proper, is dangerous, and you do so at your own peril and those who would serve the publics interest by working in such miserable conditions as they have been.

Calm down, they are investigating and the word generator is not even mentioned in the article.

There was a lineman killed here recently when he touched a live line.

 

[DrPizza]

There is either SAFE or NOT SAFE. Any entertaining of an "opinion" is an opening for disaster.
Is it ok if I'm of the opinion the Laws of Physics are crap and decide to open the door of the 767 at 50K ft?
I don't like connecting live, and when I do, I minimize the risks fully, it's my ass on the line, literally. I don't do just enough, especially when there's LIFE involved.

So, when you "minimize" the risks fully, are you saying that the total risk = 0? If it's not absolutely zero risk, then it *IS* an opinion as to whether it's safe or not safe.

You can bet your ass if they find an improper, illegal or just plain dodgy generator connection, or evidence of one, they will prosecute for negligent homicide.

Who is "they"? Power companies don't prosecute, and local authorities aren't going to find this connection.

(edit: I'm in agreement with you about the point that people need to know wtf they're doing, especially when it endangers the life of a linesman. But, you seem to be rather fanatical about this issue.)