Electricians - generator to house

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: BigJ
For further clarification on the 2005 Exemption, go to this page:

http://www.neccode.com/videodisplaynew.php?pageid=3288

Then play the video. It can be downloaded and played with VLC.

For those who don't know who Mike Holt is:

CODE EXPERT
Mike has devoted his career to studying and understanding the National Electrical Code, a foundation of the electrical industry. Researching the NEC all these years and understanding its background has not only made Mike an expert, but it has earned him the respect of his peers.

Companies and organizations across the United States and Mexico have used his expertise in English and Spanish to help them pinpoint the exact meaning of the NEC. In addition, his insight has been helpful in litigation problems, where the exact meaning of the Code is necessary.

If anybody is going to know the interpretation of the NEC, it's going to be Mike Holt. But again, this does not mean the NEC is the final authority.

Hey I can appreciate you wanting to link stuff but that link does not apply here.

A transfer switch is required for all fixed or portable optional standby power systems to prevent the interconnection of normal and alternate sources of supply.

Wiring a generator to household is not a standby or fixed power system.

Fixed would be permanent and standby would be automatically engages.

There are many sections of the NEC but they apply to different sectors. What is applicable to factory setting may be in direct violation of what is permitted in a hospital. Residential requirements are less restrictive.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat

My little $25 craftsman multimeter has a protection circuit.

I did burn up one years ago by testing for 110v when I had it set to ohms.

A DMM will be OK on O. But if you want to blow it up put it on A. Not the fused <1A side, the 10A UNFUSED side. I think that Fluke 77 is still around that has the bump in the front panel from that. The real fuse was the probe.

Originally posted by: bctbct

The question in this thread was will it work?- yes it will

A LOT of things work. A tweeter will work without a capacitor to protect it from low frequencies but as soon as xmech is reached it will die.

Lastly when a storm damages the electrical distribution system, things are far from optimal. The LAST thing you want is a HACK JOB connected to the system while repairs are made and the system is often operated in abnormal conditions. (see earlier reference to neutral potential) If someone DIES because of it and they hear a genny guess who they will come to? It's like a beacon calling out. One cannot mistake the sounds of those loud ass piston engines. And in the middle of the winter Greg Morton isn't going to be mowing the lawn.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: bctbct

The question in this thread was will it work?- yes it will

Next topic was is it legal? If your city is bound by the NEC, yes it is.

You guys can talk all about equipment failure or miss-wiring etc. if you want because its the only thing you have to latch onto to make this a bad idea.

And yet, spoken like a typical supervisor who has no real idea of how bad an idea it really is you completely ignore several experienced electricians, and one bona fide engineer telling you it's not a good idea.

It's not legal, if a qualified service person doesn't disconnect the neutral, and lock up the panel or if you do it.

'Cause you're not a qualified service person.

You're in management. Quit confusing the two. You hate it when we engineers try to do your job, right?
You're just fixated on being "right", rather than "safe" since "safe" doesn't really affect you, or anyone you know. Linemen are an abstraction to you. You still do not understand hoe easily a backfeed can occur, and that's what makes you dangerous to the lineman working on a spur of that Service feed you enjoy, out in the country.... all by yourself. Dude, if you're on the grid, you're not alone.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: bctbct


Hey I can appreciate you wanting to link stuff but that link does not apply here.

A transfer switch is required for all fixed or portable optional standby power systems to prevent the interconnection of normal and alternate sources of supply.

Wiring a generator to household is not a standby or fixed power system.

Fixed would be permanent and standby would be automatically engages.

There are many sections of the NEC but they apply to different sectors. What is applicable to factory setting may be in direct violation of what is permitted in a hospital. Residential requirements are less restrictive.

Please just stop.

Standby doesn't mean automatic in any sense. The fact that they have portable[/] in there includes the type of equipment you would be using.
Dude, you're wrong.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: BigJ
For further clarification on the 2005 Exemption, go to this page:

http://www.neccode.com/videodisplaynew.php?pageid=3288

Then play the video. It can be downloaded and played with VLC.

For those who don't know who Mike Holt is:

CODE EXPERT
Mike has devoted his career to studying and understanding the National Electrical Code, a foundation of the electrical industry. Researching the NEC all these years and understanding its background has not only made Mike an expert, but it has earned him the respect of his peers.

Companies and organizations across the United States and Mexico have used his expertise in English and Spanish to help them pinpoint the exact meaning of the NEC. In addition, his insight has been helpful in litigation problems, where the exact meaning of the Code is necessary.

If anybody is going to know the interpretation of the NEC, it's going to be Mike Holt. But again, this does not mean the NEC is the final authority.

Hey I can appreciate you wanting to link stuff but that link does not apply here.

A transfer switch is required for all fixed or portable optional standby power systems to prevent the interconnection of normal and alternate sources of supply.

Wiring a generator to household is not a standby or fixed power system.

Fixed would be permanent and standby would be automatically engages.

There are many sections of the NEC but they apply to different sectors. What is applicable to factory setting may be in direct violation of what is permitted in a hospital. Residential requirements are less restrictive.

The more you talk, the easier this gets. First it was the 2005 Exemption allows you to hook up a generator just by plugging it into an outlet and throwing the main CB. Now you're saying that 702 doesn't even cover generators. Here's an exerpt from the NEC with NFPA comments:

I. General
702.1 Scope
The provisions of this article apply to the installation and operation of optional standby
systems.
The systems covered by this article consist of those that are permanently installed in their
entirety, including prime movers, and those that are arranged for a connection to a
premises wiring system from a portable alternate power supply.

Article 702 applies not only to permanently installed generators and prime movers but
also to portable alternate power supplies that can be connected to an optional standby
system. For example, upon failure of an optional standby generator at a frozen food
processing plant, a vehicle-mounted generator can be brought in and connected to the
plant's optional standby system, which has provisions for such a connection.
Optional standby systems are those in which failure can cause physical discomfort,
serious interruption of an industrial process, damage to process equipment, or
disruption of business.

EDIT: And here's the very definition, by the NEC, of optional standby systems:

702.2 Definition
Optional Standby Systems. Those systems intended to supply power to public or private
facilities or property where life safety does not depend on the performance of the system.
Optional standby systems are intended to supply on-site generated power to selected
loads either automatically or manually.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat

My little $25 craftsman multimeter has a protection circuit.

I did burn up one years ago by testing for 110v when I had it set to ohms.

A DMM will be OK on O. But if you want to blow it up put it on A. Not the fused <1A side, the 10A UNFUSED side. I think that Fluke 77 is still around that has the bump in the front panel from that. The real fuse was the probe.

Originally posted by: bctbct

The question in this thread was will it work?- yes it will

A LOT of things work. A tweeter will work without a capacitor to protect it from low frequencies but as soon as xmech is reached it will die.

Lastly when a storm damages the electrical distribution system, things are far from optimal. The LAST thing you want is a HACK JOB connected to the system while repairs are made and the system is often operated in abnormal conditions. (see earlier reference to neutral potential) If someone DIES because of it and they hear a genny guess who they will come to? It's like a beacon calling out. One cannot mistake the sounds of those loud ass piston engines. And in the middle of the winter Greg Morton isn't going to be mowing the lawn.

This is so true. It's happened up here in Auburn back in 1989... PG&E lost two linemen that year from people doing exactly what he advocates doing.
I was quizzzed by a PG&E inspector on Generator connection while doing my retail gig. They like going after people who disregard common sense.
and if you try to claim on your insurance against liability, they'll be looking at the installation. .... "Non compliant installation??? Why, we don't insure that sort of nonsense... see ya "
Here's something to think about... If you're willing to look for a reason to do something in a shoddy manner, that has such potnetially deadly consequences, what else will you capitulate on?

 

[Cdubneeddeal]

You three should get on Vent/Skype and duke it out. I'm sure Ross is there waiting for you

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: bctbct
If the main turns off power leading to your house, I dont see how you could backfeed power from your house.

If there is a plug with a hot & neutral reversed, that neutral line is now feeding back into the system, the voltage present at the generator, THAT is how a backfeed gets around a standard main breaker thrown OFF.

That makes absolutely no sense to me, unless you're referring to the specific circuit that the generator is plugged into; I'm assuming that's what you mean.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: bctbct

The question in this thread was will it work?- yes it will

Next topic was is it legal? If your city is bound by the NEC, yes it is.

You guys can talk all about equipment failure or miss-wiring etc. if you want because its the only thing you have to latch onto to make this a bad idea.

And yet, spoken like a typical supervisor who has no real idea of how bad an idea it really is you completely ignore several experienced electricians, and one bona fide engineer telling you it's not a good idea.

It's not legal, if a qualified service person doesn't disconnect the neutral, and lock up the panel or if you do it.

'Cause you're not a qualified service person.

You're in management. Quit confusing the two. You hate it when we engineers try to do your job, right?
You're just fixated on being "right", rather than "safe" since "safe" doesn't really affect you, or anyone you know. Linemen are an abstraction to you. You still do not understand hoe easily a backfeed can occur, and that's what makes you dangerous to the lineman working on a spur of that Service feed you enjoy, out in the country.... all by yourself. Dude, if you're on the grid, you're not alone.

If engineers were perfect the discovery channel wouldnt have "Engineering Disasters" so humble yourself.

I dont know your jurisdiction but in my city/county a homeowner can pull a permit and do electrical work on their own house.

And no I dont hate it when engineers do my job, I want them to do their job. I had 2 calls into engineers last week asking them why they spec adding another toilet to a sewer line that was already over capicity and why when the ceiling tile was installed in the ceiling the return in the plenum was sucking the tiles back out. And we wont even bring up the conversation with the engineer I had a few months ago about connecting 207 to 480 roof top units.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal
You three should get on Vent/Skype and duke it out. I'm sure Ross is there waiting for you

All this thread needs is a treadmill...connected to a generator of course.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal
You three should get on Vent/Skype and duke it out. I'm sure Ross is there waiting for you

All this thread needs is a treadmill...connected to a generator of course.

Backfeeding into the POCO lines.

 

[bobsmith1492]

Originally posted by: Evadman
There is nothing that would physically make that arrangement fail.

To bigJ & Specop 007's points, if you do not flip the main breaker, you will actually back feed the grid. Theoretically, your neighbors would all see power, and you would also energize the high voltage lines. Someone up on a pole could be killed since they expect the power to be off, and the line dead.

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Additionally, sometimes breakers wont pop if power is fed the wrong way through them.

Only if the breaker is defective, in which case it wouldn't matter which way the power is 'flowing'. The breaker to the stove/dryer will still flip if you try putting > amperage than the breaker is rated for. It doesn't matter which way the amperage is 'flowing' since it reverses 120 times (60 hertz) a second.

Originally posted by: bctbct
I would interpret the bolded areas to be the main breaker.

Tripping the breaker does not disconnect the neutral. Theoretically it should not matter since neutral is supposed to be tied to ground, so there will not be a voltage on the neutral feed back to the pole. But if something is wrong in your box there will be issues.

This man speaks truth. I would have to personally check the wiring coming into my house to make sure the breaker disconnected both active lines completely before even considering the reverse-generator-feed.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: bctbct

If engineers were perfect the discovery channel wouldnt have "Engineering Disasters" so humble yourself.

That humans fail is eactly why we are advocating safety instead of foolishness.
As for humility, I believe the onus is upon you, since you seem to(think you) posses some sort of extra-ordinary divination that precludes the possibility of fault, mis-wiring,or just plain old bad luck.
If the WGA stays out on strike long enough, they'll be doing Bad Managment Decisons, so don't get cocky yourself.

I dont know your jurisdiction but in my city/county a homeowner can pull a permit and do electrical work on their own house.

That's pretty much a universal ability, with some municipal restrictions, and in CA, you must be a licensed Electerical Contractor to do PANEL work, but ... that hot male plug on the end of a dryer cord plugged into a dryer outlet won't get a permit anywhere, and might just get your meter pulled.
you don't say where you are so we can peruse the local codes there, but it really doesn't matter, as far as this conversation is concerned.

And no I dont hate it when engineers do my job, I want them to do their job. I had 2 calls into engineers last week asking them why they spec adding another toilet to a sewer line that was already over capicity and why when the ceiling tile was installed in the ceiling the return in the plenum was sucking the tiles back out. And we wont even bring up the conversation with the engineer I had a few months ago about connecting 207 to 480 roof top units.

None of that has anything to do with YOUR qualifications, only illustrates the premise I hold, which is, you can't trust other people to be aware of your dangerous situation, especially when you fail to recognize it as such. THAT is the biggest danger .

 

[BigJ]

AlienCraft, give it up. We're not getting anywhere with this guy.

The funniest part about this is that remember how he made up his own definition for optional standby systems? Take a look at the 15th post in this thread where I quoted the very definition of optional standby systems from the NEC.

 

[olds]

Let's change the topic to something safe, what do you guys think of abortion from a religious aspect?

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
Let's change the topic to something safe, what do you guys think of abortion from a religious aspect?

Penny in the fusebox!

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
Let's change the topic to something safe, what do you guys think of abortion from a religious aspect?

I believe sea otters should have the right to choose because they don't believe in the Christian "God."

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: BigJ
AlienCraft, give it up. We're not getting anywhere with this guy.

The funniest part about this is that remember how he made up his own definition for optional standby systems? Take a look at the 15th post in this thread where I quoted the very definition of optional standby systems from the NEC.

They are citing an example where a portable generator is brought to the site and and connected to the optional standby sytem because that system failed.

Difference

Emergency generators- required at facitilites like hospitals, automatically kick on when the power is lost.

Optional standby generator- boss says we lost power, go push the button to start up the generator. Auto transfer switch.

The funny part is you dont know enough about this subject to interpret the basics.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: BigJ
AlienCraft, give it up. We're not getting anywhere with this guy.

The funniest part about this is that remember how he made up his own definition for optional standby systems? Take a look at the 15th post in this thread where I quoted the very definition of optional standby systems from the NEC.

They are citing an example where a portable generator is brought to the site and and connected to the optional standby sytem because that system failed.

Difference

Emergency generators- required at facitilites like hospitals, automatically kick on when the power is lost.

Optional standby generator- boss says we lost power, go push the button to start up the generator. Auto transfer switch.

The funny part is you dont know enough about this subject to interpret the basics.

:laugh:

Keep digging there boss.

You do realize the generator is part of the system, right?

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: BigJ
AlienCraft, give it up. We're not getting anywhere with this guy.

The funniest part about this is that remember how he made up his own definition for optional standby systems? Take a look at the 15th post in this thread where I quoted the very definition of optional standby systems from the NEC.

They are citing an example where a portable generator is brought to the site and and connected to the optional standby sytem because that system failed.

Difference

Emergency generators- required at facitilites like hospitals, automatically kick on when the power is lost.

Optional standby generator- boss says we lost power, go push the button to start up the generator. Auto transfer switch. This is a system, not something that is plugged in at will.

The funny part is you dont know enough about this subject to interpret the basics.

 

[Cdubneeddeal]

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
Let's change the topic to something safe, what do you guys think of abortion from a religious aspect?

That's a great idea Chris. Or perhaps I can start typing upside down?...

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: bctbct
Optional standby generator- boss says we lost power, go push the button to start up the generator. Auto transfer switch. This is a system, not something that is plugged in at will.

This gets even funnier. Because it specifically outlines the system may be designed as such. Once again, 702.1

702.1 Scope
The provisions of this article apply to the installation and operation of optional standby
systems.
The systems covered by this article consist of those that are permanently installed in their
entirety, including prime movers, and those that are arranged for a connection to a
premises wiring system from a portable alternate power supply.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: bctbct
Optional standby generator- boss says we lost power, go push the button to start up the generator. Auto transfer switch. This is a system, not something that is plugged in at will.

This gets even funnier. Because it specifically outlines the system may be designed as such. Once again, 702.1

702.1 Scope
The provisions of this article apply to the installation and operation of optional standby
systems.
The systems covered by this article consist of those that are permanently installed in their
entirety, including prime movers, and those that are arranged for a connection to a
premises wiring system from a portable alternate power supply.

You are thick arent you.

The senario you are linking is this

Frozen processing plant
Standby power system
Standby generator fails
They truck in on a semi a generator(portable only in that sense)
Generator is then hardwired to the standby power system in place of the failed generator

THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS CONNECTING A 5000W GENERATOR TO A DRYER PLUG

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: BigJ
AlienCraft, give it up. We're not getting anywhere with this guy.

The funniest part about this is that remember how he made up his own definition for optional standby systems? Take a look at the 15th post in this thread where I quoted the very definition of optional standby systems from the NEC.

They are citing an example where a portable generator is brought to the site and and connected to the optional standby sytem because that system failed.

Difference

Emergency generators- required at facitilites like hospitals, automatically kick on when the power is lost.

Optional standby generator- boss says we lost power, go push the button to start up the generator. Auto transfer switch.

The funny part is you dont know enough about this subject to interpret the basics.

Basics? I know the need to be right is a base need and as such, you're willing to ignore the code, advice of professionals in the business here on this forum and basic common sense in order to do something stupid, unsafe, and potentially deadly. You want to set your house on fire, or electrocute yourself or your buddy, fine, but I'm here representing linemen who have deal with ignorant, selfish, shortsighted homeowners who think that because Jed on the Jobsite said so, it's so..... "Well, Jed, may do something in front of you and the inspector, and something entirely different the rest of the day., he may not have understood exactly what you were asking, or that you would even do something WITHOUT considering the ramifications that he consideres on a daily basis.
I know the basics like NEUTRAL being a current carrying conductor that is still connected to the Power Service, no matter the position of the main breaker and as such, renders your connection out of compliance, unsafe, not a good idea?
The entertaining part is you grasping at starws to come up with something new to support your bogus position.


Here's something supervisors forget, you're not hiring the best, you're hiring the cheapest.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: bctbct
Optional standby generator- boss says we lost power, go push the button to start up the generator. Auto transfer switch. This is a system, not something that is plugged in at will.

This gets even funnier. Because it specifically outlines the system may be designed as such. Once again, 702.1

702.1 Scope
The provisions of this article apply to the installation and operation of optional standby
systems.
The systems covered by this article consist of those that are permanently installed in their
entirety, including prime movers, and those that are arranged for a connection to a
premises wiring system from a portable alternate power supply.

You are thick arent you.

The senario you are linking is this

Frozen processing plant
Standby power system
Standby generator fails
They truck in on a semi a generator(portable only in that sense)
Generator is then hardwired to the standby power system in place of the failed generator

THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS CONNECTING A 5000W GENERATOR TO A DRYER PLUG

I linked a single example and you think that's the end-all, be-all for the code section?

You do realize the 2002 NEC was specifically modified to include home-use, portable generators right? Of course you don't. If you did, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

http://ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics-40423/

The scope of Art. 702 was changed for the 2002 issue of the Code to clarify that it applies to portable generators, which are commonly used for telecommunications facilities, water and wastewater pump stations, as well as to provide backup power to homes and offices.

I don't know about you, but I'm not going to have a semi dropping off a diesel generator at my house in the event of a power failure.