Economic Growth Rate Downgraded to Anemic 1.6 Percent in Second Quarter

[Doc Savage Fan]

Phokus, Doc... can we stop with the "Dems" this and "Repubs" that? I know you both to be intelligent and decent guys. We are "fiddling while Rome burns" when we just lob partisan attacks at each other.

We all stand to benefit by solving this economic downturn but nothing is served by us pointing the finger at each other. I refuse to believe that the human race is incapable of thoughtful debate, reasonable compromise, and a little bit of objectivity when dealing with those of dissenting opinions.

I am asserting my opinion and I'm doing so without personally attacking anyone here. While in theory, I agree that a bipartisan approach is in everyone's best interest...that, for whatever reason, is clearly not happening within the current administration.

There are fundamental differences in opinion on how to deal with this economic downturn and our current leadership has effectively mandated their particular approach to a solution. I think it's pretty damn clear that this approach is not working. Businesses aren't hiring...why? Consumers aren't spending...why? In my opinion...they have no clue as to what's coming next and this uncertainty is killing hiring, spending and our economy. And you think it's unreasonable of me to point fingers here?

Businesses are still in the process of figuring out how the recently enacted healthcare regulation is going to affect them. This administration is perceived (rightly or wrongly) as anti-business...wanting to increase taxes and regulation to boot. Major, major potential costs...not exactly an environment conducive to hiring.

What has our government done to ease these concerns? Nothing....everything they've said and done has had exactly the opposite effect.

What are they planning on doing to ease these concerns? I'll leave that question to you. Perhaps you know the answer as to why Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

 

[dahunan]

I wonder if another war or two will stimulate the economy

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I wonder if another war or two will stimulate the economy

Effectively did that with the stimulus package...didn't work.

 

[child of wonder]

I am asserting my opinion and I'm doing so without personally attacking anyone here. While in theory, I agree that a bipartisan approach is in everyone's best interest...that, for whatever reason, is clearly not happening within the current administration.

There are fundamental differences in opinion on how to deal with this economic downturn and our current leadership has effectively mandated their particular approach to a solution. I think it's pretty damn clear that this approach is not working. Businesses aren't hiring...why? Consumers aren't spending...why? In my opinion...they have no clue as to what's coming next and this uncertainty is killing job hiring and our economy. And you think it's unfair of me to point fingers here?

Businesses are still in the process of figuring out how the recently enacted healthcare regulation is going to affect them. This administration is perceived (rightly or wrongly) as anti-business...wanting to increase taxes and regulation. Not exactly an environment conducive to hiring.

What has our government done to ease these concerns? Nothing....everything they've said and done has had exactly the opposite effect.

What are they planning on doing to ease these concerns? I'll leave that question to you. Perhaps you know the answer to why Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

Here is what I see the two of you doing.

"The DEMS did X."
"Oh yeah? Well the REPUBS think Y!"
"Yeah, but at least the DEMS don't do Z!"
"Because they're doing A!"

I'm sorry you can't see it. You called me out on my bias towards the religious and we had a great discussion about it. It is a genuine pity we appear to have shifted roles when it comes to politics.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Here is what I see the two of you doing.

"The DEMS did X."
"Oh yeah? Well the REPUBS think Y!"
"Yeah, but at least the DEMS don't do Z!"
"Because they're doing A!"

I'm sorry you can't see it. You called me out on my bias towards the religious and we had a great discussion about it. It is a genuine pity we appear to have shifted roles when it comes to politics.

Yes...it is a pity. I did my best to engage in thoughtful discussion with you on this issue.

 

[child of wonder]

Yes...it is a pity. I did my best to engage in thoughtful discussion with you on this issue.

Dems have done nothing to mitigate the uncertainty that's so profoundly affecting businesses and consumers. The sugar rush is over and what do we have to show for it? Nothing. Dems have failed our country.

Any way you slice this (too big, too small)...the Dems stimulus plan, that they proposed and passed, has failed.

Don't look at me...save it for Obama and the Dems...they're the ones who screwed up.

Dems 'fiddle' while Rome burns.

Searching for your posts that contains the word "Dems" returns 82 threads. Here are some from the top of the list:

Dems won't object when the shoe is on the other foot. They'll have no problem with major bills (profoundly affecting America's future) being drafted behind closed doors and rushed to passage. They will do nothing to 'obstruct' Republican legislative efforts in order to get something they want.

So Dems definitely have the moral 'high ground' here...how nice to see things with such unbiased clarity.

It's going to be tough for Dems this coming November...the party of fail is going to be replaced by the other party of fail....how nice.

At what point can we expect of each other more than obvious disdain and vitriol towards anyone who disagrees with us? At what point can we hold a mirror to ourselves first when faced with a problem? When do we stop blaming each other for every malady, both real and imagined?

Doc, if you can't see that you're participating in the same bias we talked about months ago but only in a different forum then I fear you're exposing yourself merely as a dime a dozen hypocrite. That is a pity, indeed.

I'd love to discuss the issues regarding our economy. What I wish more people could do is to discuss it in a manner that recognizes that we are ALL sitting on the same side of the table here. We live in the "United States of America," not the "Divided Opinions of America."

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Searching for your posts that contains the word "Dems" returns 82 threads. Here are some from the top of the list:

At what point can we expect of each other more than obvious disdain and vitriol towards anyone who disagrees with us? At what point can we hold a mirror to ourselves first when faced with a problem? When do we stop blaming each other for every malady, both real and imagined?

Doc, if you can't see that you're participating in the same bias we talked about months ago but only in a different forum then I fear you're exposing yourself merely as a dime a dozen hypocrite. That is a pity, indeed.

I'd love to discuss the issues regarding our economy. What I wish more people could do is to discuss it in a manner that recognizes that we are ALL sitting on the same side of the table here. We live in the "United States of America," not the "Divided Opinions of America."

I got 37 hits on "Reps". Did you see this one?

Don't fool yourself...do a little homework and you'll find that Dems were just as much to blame as the Reps regarding our current economic problems. Here's a concept...why don't they both work together for the good of the country? Is that asking too much? Yeah...I'm a dreamer...I know.

It's tough to discuss anything with someone who already has their mind made up about what I think. Please spare me your pity.

 

[child of wonder]

I got 37 hits on "Reps". Did you see this one?

It's tough to discuss anything with someone who already has their mind made up about what I think. Please spare me your pity.

You certainly don't practice what you preach.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

You certainly don't practice what you preach.

How so? I've always advocated that both parties work together for the common good...and always been highly critical when they don't.

Edit: BTW...I've asked you severals times what you think and your only response was to personally attack me and condescend to express pity. What's up with that?

 

[First]

Why are you always such a giant asshole when you post?

What's amazing is that you don't see the irony in this statement. Don't dish it if you can't take it.

Let me re-phrase. I feel we are headed right back where it was before we started. Look at the graph in the cnn link in the OP. We are headed backwards.

Which isn't uncommon immediately after a recession, especially one where gov't expenditures are probably winding down too quickly (and they always increase during recessions, that's a statistical fact).

Also, do I get to make fun of you when Angle wins?

I never claimed she couldn't win, it wouldn't surprise me, of course I was never daft enough to claim it was ridiculous to suggest Reid would take that election as you did. He in fact has a very good and polls agree with me, disagree with you. But that tends to be the case with ideologues.

 

[child of wonder]

How so? I've always advocated that both parties work together for the common good...and always been highly critical when they don't.

Edit: BTW...I've asked you severals times what you think and your only response was to personally attack me and condescend to express pity. What's up with that?

I'm saying you're polarizing the issue into "Dems vs. Republicans" when it's not. Some aspects of what Democrats want and some aspects of what Republicans want are valid. Your posts in this thread have, so far, been mainly anti-Democrat while Phokus' have been anti-Republican. We're not going to get anywhere with that attitude.

What do I think? I have no clue. I asked earlier "what the fuck do we do?" I don't have any answers.

My opinion is that I'd like to see government spending and the deficit decrease. Some economists say we need the opposite. To me, it kind of feels like we're all standing over a dying patient with a knife in his gut. We are each coming up with elaborate ways to remove the knife and insulting those that don't buy into our line of thinking when, perhaps, the right thing to do is just to yank the thing out even though it will hurt like hell, mend up the patient as best we can, and hope he recovers -- aka, cut spending, decrease the deficit, shrink the size of government, etc.

The way things have been going the last 30 years we're heading down financial ruin anyway. Maybe we can at least say we tried tightening our belts rather than maxing out another credit card when times get tough.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I'm saying you're polarizing the issue into "Dems vs. Republicans" when it's not. Some aspects of what Democrats want and some aspects of what Republicans want are valid. Your posts in this thread have, so far, been mainly anti-Democrat while Phokus' have been anti-Republican. We're not going to get anywhere with that attitude.

I'm not going to defend why I chose to take a certain position in my discussions with Phokus or anyone else for that matter. I often disagree with Phokus…but I geniunely like him...and don't take anything he says personally and hope he does likewise. Phokus is a highly polarizing persona if you haven't noticed…I look forward to your future discussions with him.

What do I think? I have no clue. I asked earlier "what the fuck do we do?" I don't have any answers.

I have an opinion here…surprise, surprise. I think we need to immediately clarify what the administration hopes to "accomplish" during the next 2 years. If tax increases are coming…they need to say exactly when and how much with assurances of no other changes. We need to know if Cap & Trade is truly dead or if there are plans for anything else that may adversely or positively affect the business climate. We need to stop these CEO "witch hunts" (for lack of a better term)…they're accomplishing nothing and definitely sending a "We hate corporations" message. This is for starters. We need a positive vision and exceptional leadership. However I fear the damage is already done though and any assurances of "legislative stability" will likely lack credibility.

My opinion is that I'd like to see government spending and the deficit decrease. Some economists say we need the opposite. To me, it kind of feels like we're all standing over a dying patient with a knife in his gut. We are each coming up with elaborate ways to remove the knife and insulting those that don't buy into our line of thinking when, perhaps, the right thing to do is just to yank the thing out even though it will hurt like hell, mend up the patient as best we can, and hope he recovers -- aka, cut spending, decrease the deficit, shrink the size of government, etc..

I essentially agree on cutting spending but also recognize that increased taxes may be necessary…but they should be very modest. Any tax increase without reductions in spending is unacceptable IMO…government needs a lot of skin in this game if they want some of mine.

The way things have been going the last 30 years we're heading down financial ruin anyway. Maybe we can at least say we tried tightening our belts rather than maxing out another credit card when times get tough.

I totally agree with you…we're at a critical point and I think many are beginning to realize this.

 

[PingSpike]

What would GDP growth (a trend per quarter, I suppose) be if there was no stimulus?

I don't know, let me go check my parallel universe viewer machine....oh crap, I'm out of the ground unicorn horn it uses for fuel so I can't get it to start.

 

[child of wonder]

I'm not going to defend why I chose to take a certain position in my discussions with Phokus or anyone else for that matter. I often disagree with Phokus…but I geniunely like him...and don't take anything he says personally and hope he does likewise. Phokus is a highly polarizing persona if you haven't noticed…I look forward to your future discussions with him.

Forgive me then, because when I see people go on and on about "Dems" and "Republicans" my first instinct is to shake my head and think "here we go again." This forum, media, and, hell, life in general is full of this "us vs. them" mentality that it's a wonder we even have a functional government at all.

I have an opinion here…surprise, surprise. I think we need to immediately clarify what the administration hopes to "accomplish" during the next 2 years. If tax increases are coming…they need to say exactly when and how much with assurances of no other changes. We need to know if Cap & Trade is truly dead or if there are plans for anything else that may adversely or positively affect the business climate. We need to stop these CEO "witch hunts" (for lack of a better term)…they're accomplishing nothing and definitely sending a "We hate corporations" message. This is for starters. We need a positive vision and exceptional leadership. However I fear the damage is already done though and any assurances of "legislative stability" will likely lack credibility.

The CEO "witch hunts" I think are an extension of how people feel when billions in government funds are pumped into companies and the leadership of that company seems to find it fit to hand it out to each other like candy.

So, in that respect, I fault the government for giving them the "candy" because how can we trust ordinary human beings to do the right thing with a couple billion dollars suddenly handed to them?

I essentially agree on cutting spending but also recognize that increased taxes may be necessary…but they should be very modest. Any tax increase without reductions in spending is unacceptable IMO…government needs a lot of skin in this game if they want some of mine.

Same. An increase in taxes is inevitable. But I'll rally against those increases if they're only to maintain the status quo. If citizens need to make a larger financial sacrifice, then the government should do the same.

I totally agree with you…we're at a critical point and I think many are beginning to realize this.

Now if only people could look past their "we are right and you are wrong" attitudes maybe we could get something done.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
What do I think? I have no clue. I asked earlier "what the fuck do we do?" I don't have any answers.

My opinion is that I'd like to see government spending and the deficit decrease. Some economists say we need the opposite.

We are now likely in an almost impossible situation, a dilemma.

The approx $1 trillion we've shot was perhaps our last bullet, and it missed the mark.

Ideally you do not want to cut government spending in a recession, that lessens demand and will result in more unemployment. More unemployment further lessens demand and creates more gov budgetary strain with increased unemployment benefits cost, Medicaid cost, food stamps etc.

However, taking into account combined federal and state/local expenditures, I do not see how the current level of gov spending can be maintained. Both the fed and state/local gov have significantly reduced revenue sources. Obviously in a recession there are less income taxes as earnings/profits are lower. However excise tax collection will be lower too. These are taxes on transactions and/or consumption, both of which are reduced during a recession. The state/local governments, particularly local govs are significantly impacted by reduced housing prices, i.e., less real estate tax collections. Sales taxes are also down.

So the prospects for continued gov spending at current levels comes down to the ability to borrow. Given many of the states' financial/budgetary conditions their ability to further borrow is great reduced if not outright eliminated. The federal gov's ability also appears to be severly hampered. At some point, likely not too distant, additional borrowing will be self-defeating because it will result in increased interest costs on our outstanding debt.

Up til now the federal gov has been borrowing an awful lot of money and then sending it to the states so they can maintain their payrolls etc. However, state/local jobs (nor federal for taht matter) do not generate GDP, no earnings, no profits etc. They are not self-supporting jobs like those in the private sector. Unless something extraordinary happens, I think we are rapidly approaching the point where states run out of money, including funding by Uncle Sam. Jobs will be lost, and I fear a pretty hefty amount of jobs too.

We cannot afford to keep funding expanded/lengthend unemployment benefits either. We've spent quite a bit on that, and it is not self-sustaining either.

So, government borrowing looks to be limited. The only other solution is revenues. Now, you can just raise tax rates, but in the bigger picture that accomplishes nothing. You're just taking from Peter (citizens) to pay Paul (Uncle sam). It's a net zero as far as money hitting the economy, the difference is merely who decides how it is spent.

The only, and I think obvious, solution is GDP growth. This provides government revenue (income taxes, excise taxes, sales taxes etc) and will eventually stabilize housing prices as demand increases. Unemployment would also drop lessening the strain on government services/budgets. GDP growth will only come from businesses, and mostly from small businesses.

Unfortunately I see our government doing little-to-nothing to assist businesses, particularly small businesses. Instead they basically chose to use their funds to prop up state/local governments, and for the reasons above this can only be for a limited period. While that's understandable from the short-term view (a new administration doesn't want to see widespread lay-offs at the state/local gov level, or increased poverty from people going off unemployment benefits etc), I think it was a mistake in the long-term. In any case I admit that they were in a real dilemma, and not one of their making.

So, I think the government needs to develop a real clear vision, a strong focus and commitment to assisting and utilizing small business as the solution. This will require an almost 180 degree turn in their efforts, and quite likely will involve some (hopefully temporary) painful and unpopular choices. I don't think they can keep funding everything to keep everybody happy.

It may be that we emerge with leaner, stronger government at all levels (much like this recession has done that with many corporations, particulalry larger ones). State/local governments seem bloated to me. (The fed too, of course).

I'll again suggest that they use the SBA to pump money into small business. The SBA guarantees small business loans, so banks will lend once again. They already tried a very tiny program in the stim bill, it was called the 'ARC Program'. Just improve and expand on that.

Fern

 

[jman19]

I don't know, let me go check my parallel universe viewer machine....oh crap, I'm out of the ground unicorn horn it uses for fuel so I can't get it to start.

Thanks for the condescending answer. I guess the point went right over your head.

 

[hal2kilo]

I wonder if another war or two will stimulate the economy

It really is a shame that we didn't invade Iran. I'm sure everyone would just fall in lock step behind our commander in chief and forgive him for spending even more money that we won't be taxed for but pass down to our kids and grand kids. Then when the next guy gets in we can blame him for all that's F'd up with the economy.

 

[nick1985]

I don't know, let me go check my parallel universe viewer machine....oh crap, I'm out of the ground unicorn horn it uses for fuel so I can't get it to start.

lol

 

[Throckmorton]

The war in Iraq should have been much larger. We should have nuked the entire middle east. If we only did that, we wouldnt be in this mess today.

Actually yes, the war should have been much larger. The reason it turned into a quagmire is that the administration was hell bent on their limited war strategy.

 

[bfdd]

Fact is no one knows what the fuck they're talking about period. We had projections for the stimulus and they were way the fuck off. Phokus talking about a bigger stimulus is just funny because no one can say for sure. Hell no one can say we'd be better or worse without it, but I'd much rather of done without and let everything fucking fail.

 

[PeshakJang]

It really is a shame that we didn't invade Iran. I'm sure everyone would just fall in lock step behind our commander in chief and forgive him for spending even more money that we won't be taxed for but pass down to our kids and grand kids. Then when the next guy gets in we can blame him for all that's F'd up with the economy.

So which one is it? Were the wars bad for the economy or good for the economy? Make up your mind.

If it was good for the economy, your point is negated.

If it was bad for the economy, then tell us how bad it could be when taking into account the fact that this *one year's* budget deficit is over 30% more than 10 years of war spending on two fronts.

 

[Throckmorton]

Fact is no one knows what the fuck they're talking about period. We had projections for the stimulus and they were way the fuck off. Phokus talking about a bigger stimulus is just funny because no one can say for sure. Hell no one can say we'd be better or worse without it, but I'd much rather of done without and let everything fucking fail.

You're talking like you don't live here... Or are extremely wealthy and have a compound and private army, capability to produce your own food and other resources, etc.

 

[Hacp]

Stimulus CAN work but only if it is efficient. China's stimulus worked because it paid its workers pennies to get its railroad done AND most of the stimulus was kept inside China's borders. With unions, you can't create 1/100th of the rail system China did with the same money since Union rail workers make so god damn much. Overall, any sort of stimulus in the US is a waste of money.

 

[First]

Stimulus CAN work but only if it is efficient. China's stimulus worked because it paid its workers pennies to get its railroad done AND most of the stimulus was kept inside China's borders. With unions, you can't create 1/100th of the rail system China did with the same money since Union rail workers make so god damn much. Overall, any sort of stimulus in the US is a waste of money.

lmfao. Yes, because they're paid pennies, and it's mainland China.

 

[dmcowen674]

Economic Growth Rate Downgraded to Anemic 1.6 Percent in Second Quarter
Stimulus worked!

========================================
Disgusting Republicans showing their true colors how they hate the country and wish ill will on the people.

Your asses should be rounded up and kicked out of here. Traitors