Early Warning Signs of Fascism: A point by point discussion.

[HamburgerBoy]

Nah, I nailed it.

Which people wanting to attend Milo, Ben Shapiro, Ann Coulter, etc events were uniformed and violent prior to ANTIFA's attacks on them?

 

[jackstar7]

Which people wanting to attend Milo, Ben Shapiro, Ann Coulter, etc events were uniformed and violent prior to ANTIFA's attacks on them?

Wait... is it the uniforms that you're hung up on?

It can't be the violence, right?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Wait... is it the uniforms that you're hung up on?

It can't be the violence, right?

The uniforms are an important part. When a right-wing extremist commits violence, they usually do so individually, are caught, and then receive criminal penalties, up to and including death. When ANTIFA organizes, they come out 100 at a time, endorsed by local political power, wearing masks to conceal their identities, attacking people attempting to record the violence, and escaping with the police pulled back.

So what violence has been performed similar to ANTIFA's brand of violence, outside of more recent counter-ANTIFA attacks?

 

[jackstar7]

To that I give you this:
White nationalist claims Trump directed rally violence
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/donald-trump-rally-violence-237302

And the follow-up is not that Trump is innocent...
Trump claims he can’t be sued for inciting rally violence
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/trump-inciting-violence-protest-rally-lawsuit-237249

It's that he's president.

 

[jackstar7]

The uniforms are an important part. When a right-wing extremist commits violence, they usually do so individually, are caught, and then receive criminal penalties, up to and including death. When ANTIFA organizes, they come out 100 at a time, endorsed by local political power, wearing masks to conceal their identities, attacking people attempting to record the violence, and escaping with the police pulled back.

So what violence has been performed similar to ANTIFA's brand of violence, outside of more recent counter-ANTIFA attacks?

So the groups organizing including advice on weapons... because they didn't have uniforms they are not as bad?

That's interesting.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Facism starts with an abundance of nationalism.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

To that I give you this:
White nationalist claims Trump directed rally violence
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/donald-trump-rally-violence-237302

And the follow-up is not that Trump is innocent...
Trump claims he can’t be sued for inciting rally violence
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/trump-inciting-violence-protest-rally-lawsuit-237249

It's that he's president.

Looks like the legal system is taking care of it.

 

[agent00f]

Nope. The SA was organizing violence before they had a cogent, unified message of fascism. Hitler just shaped it into something more powerful once he realized that unchecked illegitimate violence is just as good as politically legitimized violence.

As mentioned they were appealing to nationalist types against the commies, jews/minorites, etc. You're basically arguing all the striking specific similarities here are coincidental.

As a broader point, violence is just a tool, and maybe used correctly or not depending on the circumstance. I know the murican libertarian school equates various tools to the work of the devil, but that doesn't mean religion is correct.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

So the groups organizing including advice on weapons... because they didn't have uniforms they are not as bad?

That's interesting.

I don't know what you're referring to here. ANTIFA regularly carries weapons and commits violence when organized, however.

 

[jackstar7]

I don't know what you're referring to here. ANTIFA regularly carries weapons and commits violence when organized, however.

I'm referring to the MAGAMilitia.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

As mentioned they were appealing to nationalist types against the commies, jews/minorites, etc. You're basically arguing all the striking specific similarities here are coincidental.

As a broader point, violence is just a tool, and maybe used correctly or not depending on the circumstance. I know the murican libertarian school equates various tools to the work of the devil, but that doesn't mean religion is correct.

So do frog-posting 4channers on the internet. White nationalists have been operating within America since its inception, but the ideology alone isn't sufficient to represent a rise of fascism.

 

[jackstar7]

Looks like the legal system is taking care of it.

Ha!

"I don't see a forest at all. Just so many trees."

 

[agent00f]

So do frog-posting 4channers on the internet. White nationalists have been operating within America since its inception, but the ideology alone isn't sufficient to represent a rise of fascism.

Policy is just enactment of various ideals. A lot more people voted for trump than those in that 4chan analogy.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I'm referring to the MAGAMilitia.

Google gives me a couple Twitter links and Facebook pages. More info please.

Ha!

"I don't see a forest at all. Just so many trees."

Do you not see a difference between individual and collective violence in the context of a rising political power?

Policy is just enactment of various ideals. A lot more people voted for trump than those in that 4chan analogy.

That's a fair viewpoint, but keep in mind that it broadens the definition of fascism to something a very sizable portion of the population supports, and has always supported.

 

[agent00f]

That's a fair viewpoint, but keep in mind that it broadens the definition of fascism to something a very sizable portion of the population supports, and has always supported.

More fascism is just traveling further down that road.

 

[jackstar7]

Do you not see a difference between individual and collective violence in the context of a rising political power?

I gotta go for the time being, but I'm telling you that you're advocating for the wrong devil.

I know that's often your bag, and I suppose you don't give a shit what people on a message board think of you... so enjoy that, I guess.

There are key points of fascism as a philosophy that do not exist within Antifa, but you are ignoring those... because reasons.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I gotta go for the time being, but I'm telling you that you're advocating for the wrong devil.

I know that's often your bag, and I suppose you don't give a shit what people on a message board think of you... so enjoy that, I guess.

There are key points of fascism as a philosophy that do not exist within Antifa, but you are ignoring those... because reasons.

Sure, ANTIFA is ultimately comprised of left-wing communists and anarchists and does not ideologically agree with all of the tenets of fascism. They still use many of the same means and support a philosophy even more destructive than fascism, however.

 

[dank69]

The uniforms are an important part. When a right-wing extremist commits violence, they usually do so individually, are caught, and then receive criminal penalties, up to and including death. When ANTIFA organizes, they come out 100 at a time, endorsed by local political power, wearing masks to conceal their identities, attacking people attempting to record the violence, and escaping with the police pulled back.

So what violence has been performed similar to ANTIFA's brand of violence, outside of more recent counter-ANTIFA attacks?

What local political power endorses them?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

What local political power endorses them?

Berkeley's mayor is a member of BAMN, a closely-related (albeit less violent) friend of ANTIFA. It's tacit endorsement. Probably the same reason the mayor explicitly told officers to stand down and allow a violent "protest" to occur.

 

[crashtech]

No one seems to be concerning themselves with what too little nationalism might entail. The right of self-determination is intertwined with nationalism, I think what we see on occasion are just slight over-corrections that get misinterpreted as the end of the world.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

What would be an example of the negatives of too little nationalism? Reductions in nationalism have opened up foreign trade, created new alliances, and reduced the likelihood of war between the nations participating. It also makes our workers more competitive and productive by opening them to foreign competition, and encourages nations to improve themselves so that they don't experience brain drain of their best workers. I mean, you could look at tiny, peaceful city-states being ransacked by barbarians and/or empires and blame a lack of nationalistic spirit, but that doesn't really happen much these days.

 

[dank69]

Berkeley's mayor is a member of BAMN, a closely-related (albeit less violent) friend of ANTIFA. It's tacit endorsement. Probably the same reason the mayor explicitly told officers to stand down and allow a violent "protest" to occur.

Okay so a mayor of one city joining a friend of a violent group is equal to our President telling his supporters to assault protesters and he'll pay their legal bills. No wait, worse because they wear "uniforms." But MAGA gear doesn't qualify as uniforms.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Okay so a mayor of one city joining a friend of a violent group is equal to our President telling his supporters to assault protesters and he'll pay their legal bills. No wait, worse because they wear "uniforms." But MAGA gear doesn't qualify as uniforms.

I'm fairly certain that you do not like Donald Trump and consider him something of a fascist, so from this can I interpret that you consider ANTIFA to be likewise?

Wearing a MAGA baseball cap and holding a "Heil Pepe" sign is not the same thing as wearing a mask and hiding a U-lock, btw. The Trump supporters that suit up in armor wielding weapons with the intent of attacking political opponents absolutely should be rounded up and put in prison, but this is basically a response to months/years of ANTIFA and friends doing the same. I don't think "Based Stick Man", for example, was a thing prior to ANTIFA's riots at conservative speaking events.

 

[crashtech]

What would be an example of the negatives of too little nationalism? Reductions in nationalism have opened up foreign trade, created new alliances, and reduced the likelihood of war between the nations participating. It also makes our workers more competitive and productive by opening them to foreign competition, and encourages nations to improve themselves so that they don't experience brain drain of their best workers. I mean, you could look at tiny, peaceful city-states being ransacked by barbarians and/or empires and blame a lack of nationalistic spirit, but that doesn't really happen much these days.

At it's best, nationalism allows us to take on an identity bigger than ourselves, one which better encourages citizens to work for a common good. Obviously this tendency has a dark side as well, but experiencing the seemingly irreconcilable divisions in our society makes me wonder if there is anything, anything at all that could unite us. Asteroid strike, maybe?

 

[Vic]

It's amusing how many of those points the leftists dominate...

Really? Which points exactly?