Duke Lacrosse Team

[Genx87]

The case against the DA's office teetered right over the cliff when it became known he withheld valuable information from the defense.

I question if the defense had that information before the grand jury trial whether any of this would have gone beyond the grand jury.

 

[squirrel dog]

Ever wonder how the USA is viewed by the folks over seas? All we do is waste our time on such things as Imus,the Duke case,Anna Nichole,ect.They must think we are nuts.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Genx87
The case against the DA's office teetered right over the cliff when it became known he withheld valuable information from the defense.

I question if the defense had that information before the grand jury trial whether any of this would have gone beyond the grand jury.

I'm inclined to agree. If Nifong gets disbarred for anything, it will be on a sustainable accusation that he withheld that information b/c it was exculpatory.

The other side of that coin is that the $3million defense team didn't insist on a complete record to answer basic questions:
1) Did it match any of the accused?
2) Is there any other male DNA present?
3) How many other males were present?

You don't pay your defense team to do a marginally competent job . . . we call that public defender . . . except in Texas.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: squirrel dog
Ever wonder how the USA is viewed by the folks over seas? All we do is waste our time on such things as Imus,the Duke case,Anna Nichole,ect.They must think we are nuts.

I'm pretty sure our country has really warped morals. All of the above are one form or another of 'entertainment' that got out of hand.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
What a sad, sick thing this was.

Nifong needs to be charged with prosecutorial misconduct. The lawsuits are gonna fly.

i hope lawsuits fly, those kids parents spent millions on their defense. they deserve to get that money back by suing the DA office and Duke.

but think of this. if you and I were charged with this our asses would be in jail because we would not have the funds to mount a defense like the kids parents did.

the DA needs to go to jail period.

And how exactly is Duke University responsible for the players stupidity, the accusers false allegation, Nifong's incompetence, or the defense counsels' pride?

You can only sue the DA for willful wrongdoing. Nifong is teetering on that edge but certainly that case is not proven.

In any case, this certainly does not rise to the level of someone being falsely accused, tried, and incarcerated. At best, they deserve apologies from the accuser, DA, and maybe the group of faculty members that assumed they were guilty.

The administrations response was appropriate. I doubt there are many universities in America where a student wouldn't be suspended if they were CHARGED with multiple violent felonies.

I feel sorry for the ex-Duke student-athletes b/c their punishment didn't fit their behaviors but IMHO the order of responsibility goes:
1) the accuser
2) DA Nifong
3) look in the mirror
4) bad defense strategy at the beginning - likely an attempt to avoid admitting to other criminal code violations

It sux being falsely accused. Sadly, these guys really don't have much of a recourse. Duke is not liable for their legal expenses and if the student code of conduct states one may be suspended for felony 'charges' then they shouldn't expect much beyond a tuition waiver. I doubt the younger guys would want to go back, though.

I doubt the lying accuser has many assets so there's nothing to gain from a civil trial other than getting her on the stand to 'hopefully' tell the truth or at least one of her versions. The state AG has already stated that criminal charges against the lying accuser aren't gonna happen.

Could probably attempt a civil claim against Nifong but that's no slam dunk. He will likely be censured by the NC Bar. The state AG probably would have mentioned criminal charges if that was possible.

Meanwhile, The Baltimore Sun reported on Wednesday that parents of Duke team members have asked if the university will pay the legal fees, estimated as high as $3 million, incurred by the families of the accused players.

The Sun, citing family members present at a meeting between them, Duke president Richard Brodhead and Robert Steel, the chair of Duke's board of trustees, the request was neither granted nor refused.

Weren't they kicked out of school, the la crosse team disbanded and teachers condemning them?

FOR FALSE ALLEGATIONS!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: Genx87
The case against the DA's office teetered right over the cliff when it became known he withheld valuable information from the defense.

I question if the defense had that information before the grand jury trial whether any of this would have gone beyond the grand jury.

I'm inclined to agree. If Nifong gets disbarred for anything, it will be on a sustainable accusation that he withheld that information b/c it was exculpatory.

The other side of that coin is that the $3million defense team didn't insist on a complete record to answer basic questions:
1) Did it match any of the accused?
2) Is there any other male DNA present?
3) How many other males were present?

You don't pay your defense team to do a marginally competent job . . . we call that public defender . . . except in Texas.

you are misinformed .......you cannot insist on eveidence that you have no idea wheyther is exists or not....

Witholding eveidence is just that withholding evidence...thus the reason the sleazy DA is in alot od caca...

Plus the DA had never played Lacrosse before thus he was jealous of those lacrosse players!!

 

[crownjules]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

The administrations response was appropriate. I doubt there are many universities in America where a student wouldn't be suspended if they were CHARGED with multiple violent felonies.

What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Being charged with a crime is not the same as being found guilty of that charge. Being charged means the authorities believe they have sufficient evidence to try you of said crime, but the innocence/guilt is to be decided by a jury of your peers reviewing said evidence.

They were kicked out of school before guilt was affirmed, therefore Duke needs to apologize and reinstate them or face what they will reap from their knee-jerk reaction.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

I believe they were suspended NOT expelled from school. The lax team was not disbanded. They were suspended from participation until this year. The team penalty was largely a reflection of what happened when the administration saw a PATTERN of misbehavior associated with the program. All of that is appropriate.

The faculty thing . . . I'm kinda on the fence. Some of the gang of 88 (or whatever) said they were not assuming the players were guilty. They wanted to highlight broader issues that the lax episode brought to the fore.

As I said before, some student codes of conduct do NOT distinguish between false allegations and incarceration. In the beginning, if you are CHARGED with a felony, it may bring an automatic suspension. Call it unfair but that's life if you attend such an institution. I can state for a FACT that it will get you an indefinite boot from ANY athletic team at UNC and IIRC will be referred to the Dean and possibly lead to a suspension, although you do get certain rights to defend yourself against the allegation.
---


Any good defense attorney knows the power of potentially exculpatory evidence and evidence that would be sufficient to create reasonable doubt. The items I listed as part of the forensic report are 1) potentially exculpatory, 2) creates reasonable doubt, 3) creates reasonable doubt. The defense team had enough cajones to go after the strippers reputation. I'm saying they didn't have enough intelligence to cover all their bases.

The NC Bar levelled charges at Nifong BEFORE it was revealed that he had withheld evidence. You are uninformed.

One more time, enrolled students agree to abide by student codes of conduct. Some (maybe most) have explicit stipulations for students accused of crimes . . . even off-campus. You may indeed face a penalty for merely being ACCUSED of a crime. Typically the penalty rises as the seriousness of the charges increase. I don't know Duke's code but my guess is that like most elite academic institutions they don't allow people charged with violent felonies to hang around campus. Many background forms ask discrete questions about being CONVICTED of a felony and separate inquiries about being ACCUSED of a felony.

I'm not saying it's fair. I'm saying it's the way it is.

 

[GoPackGo]

So when are the three going to sue the city and the DA?

Wonder if charges will be brought up against the woman?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
So when are the three going to sue the city and the DA?

Wonder if charges will be brought up against the woman?

The authorities involved are probably protected from civil suits like in Georgia.

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
The authorities involved are probably protected from civil suits like in Georgia.

Actually the DA's behavior in this case is so obviously egregious that those laws may not effectively protect him in this instance.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Aegeon

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
The authorities involved are probably protected from civil suits like in Georgia.

Actually the DA's behavior in this case is so obviously egregious that those laws may not effectively protect him in this instance.

I'm inclined to disagree. The former defendants (now plaintiffs) would be hard pressed to prove actual malice (aside from Nifong calling them hooligans). Nifong's likely defense would be the case merited INITIAL charges solely b/c there was an accuser that had physical evidence of harm that appeared to be corroborated by medical report (depending on the version). Although the perp ID process was flawed, the accuser still positively ID'd her attackers. The above was sufficient for a grand jury indictment.

Despite the accuser's (hereafter noted as LB) story becoming more fluid, the physical evidence of a sexual violation and her general account was sufficient to continue investigating.

Nifong's excuse for the DNA in the LB is likely to be that it wasn't really exculpatory b/c assailants could have used condoms or foreign objects. The lack of DNA evidence in the bathroom might be a tougher sell. Then again, the press on nail would seem to support part of the LB's narrative.

Nifong's counsel would basically play to the notion that he was a public servant that didn't seek out innocent college students to persecute. The LB came with a plausible story and physical evidence that justified the charges. Nifong may be responsible for overzealousness but that was a function of seeking justice for a young woman he believed had been violated.

As long as Nifong doesn't get representation comparable to the Duke lax guys . . . that story will probably beat a civil rap.

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I'm inclined to disagree. The former defendants (now plaintiffs) would be hard pressed to prove actual malice (aside from Nifong calling them hooligans). Nifong's likely defense would be the case merited INITIAL charges solely b/c there was an accuser that had physical evidence of harm that appeared to be corroborated by medical report (depending on the version). Although the perp ID process was flawed, the accuser still positively ID'd her attackers. The above was sufficient for a grand jury indictment.

Despite the accuser's (hereafter noted as LB) story becoming more fluid, the physical evidence of a sexual violation and her general account was sufficient to continue investigating.

Nifong's excuse for the DNA in the LB is likely to be that it wasn't really exculpatory b/c assailants could have used condoms or foreign objects. The lack of DNA evidence in the bathroom might be a tougher sell. Then again, the press on nail would seem to support part of the LB's narrative.

Nifong's counsel would basically play to the notion that he was a public servant that didn't seek out innocent college students to persecute. The LB came with a plausible story and physical evidence that justified the charges. Nifong may be responsible for overzealousness but that was a function of seeking justice for a young woman he believed had been violated.

As long as Nifong doesn't get representation comparable to the Duke lax guys . . . that story will probably beat a civil rap.

The argument is pretty preposterous when you get down to it though. There was no logical reason he couldn't have waited for the DNA results before seeking an indictment, and he ALSO failed to actually interview the accuser. (If you're primarily basing your indictment on eyewitness testimony, you're certainly expected to try to assess the credibility of that accuser.) A flawed id process isn't close to enough evidence to warrant seeking a grand jury indictment without gathering additional evidence first. Nifong also refused to meet with the defense attorneys for the players and listen to any evidence they had that would indicate they could not be guilty of the alleged allegations. (I believe the evidence clearly placing one of the accused at an ATM some distance away after a taxi ride at the time of the alleged rape would have been available if Nifong had bothered to check at that point.)

You're also ignoring that Nifong made factually incorrect statements to the public regarding the case. For instance he publicly declared that the accused players were "hiding behind a wall of silence" when one of the accused players had already talked to investigators, along with two other team captains, and all three accused players had offered to take lie detector tests. There is a strong possibility that Nifong will end up losing a civil case in this instance.

 

[spittledip]

Quite honestly I still wonder if they are guilty. I don't trust this outcome.

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: spittledip
Quite honestly I still wonder if they are guilty. I don't trust this outcome.

Ok, lets take this from the top.

They checked semen DNA evidence which was on the woman, and it all came back as none of it belonging to any of the 3 accused players. No proper lineup identification of the accused ever occurred.

The accuser dramatically changed her story at least twice after telling her story initally, and each time this appears to be the result of her previous story not matching up with the available physical evidence.

One of the accused was actually at an ATM miles away when the accuser initially asserted the rape occurred. (There is both the testimony of a taxi driver and a time stamped ATM surveillance video proving this.) Furthermore the other stripper at the party said she saw no indication that anything happened beyond some racial slurs being directed at them from some members of the lacrosse team. (Not necessarily the players accused.)

On top of all this, after an investigation of the charges, the North Carolina Attorney General stated that he was confident a mistake had been made and that the 3 lacrosse players are innocent of the previous charges against them. (This is incredibly unusual and the usual statement would have been that he simply felt there was insufficient evidence to prove the charges in court.)

Just how much more evidence do you want? Its really rare to find a criminal case where its more obvious someone is innocent than this particular circumstance.

 

[Aisengard]

Innocence can never be proven. Only guilt.

 

[tomywishbone]

Originally posted by: Aisengard
Innocence can never be proven. Only guilt.

So if there was a video tape showing all the accused were 100 miles away, and they had 10 witness to verify the fact. And the DNA did not match any of the accused, and the accuser confessed to being on drugs and lying; that wouldn't prove innocence? Innocence is easy to prove.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Finally!

Now...Let the lawsuits commence!

I'm hoping that these innocent victims file numerous lawsuits and conduct a merciless, scorch-the-earth campaign against all of the criminals and villians in this matter. I hope they sue the stripper who made the false accusation, I hope they sue Nifong, the Durham PD, and Durham Crimestoppers. I hope they sue Duke University and the Gang of 88. I hope they sue any media sources that sensationalized the reports and committed defamation against them.

Now it's time for them to get even.

This case is not merely about three innocent victims of a rogue prosecutor -- it's also about how men -- any man -- can be easily falsely accused of rape or sexual or child abuse and then have his life destroyed. What would have happened if these students were of merely middle class means and their families couldn't afford expensive legal counsel? What would have happened if the case had received little media attention? (Thank you, Ed Bradley.)

If you are a male in this country, you can get Nifonged. Let this case be a warning to all men -- current criminal laws and procedures are highly discriminatory and a huge amount of injustice against men has occurred as a result. Let this case be a wake-up call for men to begin a fight for men's rights.

False accusations of rape and domestic violence...
Male-only draft...
Legalized male genital mutilation...
Divorce and child custody laws that heavily favor women...
Discrimination via affirmative action...
More money spent on women's health research than mens...
Most homeless people are men...

...When will men stand up and start organizing to fight for men's rights?

 

[dahunan]

FWIW.. the accuser in the Kobe Bryant case went to her rape exam with sperm from THREE MEN in her hair, panties, and snatch... NONE OF IT AFRICAN AMERICAN...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The District Attorney Mark Hurlbert got re-elected by little racist Eagle County, CO residents

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: dahunan
FWIW.. the accuser in the Kobe Bryant case went to her rape exam with sperm from THREE MEN in her hair, panties, and snatch... NONE OF IT AFRICAN AMERICAN...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The District Attorney Mark Hurlbert got re-elected by little racist Eagle County, CO residents

So?

Kobe Bryant ADMITTED he had sex with the woman in question after publicly initially denying he had sex with her. There was vaginal trauma which would have been consistent with rape, and some of her blood was found on Kobe Bryant's clothing. Kobe Bryant certainly had issues with his credibility in the case given his initial denial and then admitting to having sex after presumably realizing they may have his DNA since he had unprotected sex with her.

The charges were dropped after the woman decided not to go forward with the charges, otherwise there remained a real chance Kobe Bryant would have been convicted. Its also notable that Kobe Bryant choose not to attempt to fight her lawsuit in the civil trial and went ahead and paid her a presumably substantial settlement.

It was a very different situation than with this case and I find the racism accusation to simply be bogus and contemptible.

Edit: Kobe Bryant also issued the following apology as a condition of the woman choosing not to press forward with criminal charges.

The 26-year-old Los Angeles Lakers guard issued a written apology that stopped short of taking responsibility for his actions.

?Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did,? he said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5861379/

That's quite different than an assertion of complete innocence.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: Aegeon

Originally posted by: spittledip
Quite honestly I still wonder if they are guilty. I don't trust this outcome.

Ok, lets take this from the top.

They checked semen DNA evidence which was on the woman, and it all came back as none of it belonging to any of the 3 accused players. No proper lineup identification of the accused ever occurred.

The accuser dramatically changed her story at least twice after telling her story initally, and each time this appears to be the result of her previous story not matching up with the available physical evidence.

One of the accused was actually at an ATM miles away when the accuser initially asserted the rape occurred. (There is both the testimony of a taxi driver and a time stamped ATM surveillance video proving this.) Furthermore the other stripper at the party said she saw no indication that anything happened beyond some racial slurs being directed at them from some members of the lacrosse team. (Not necessarily the players accused.)

On top of all this, after an investigation of the charges, the North Carolina Attorney General stated that he was confident a mistake had been made and that the 3 lacrosse players are innocent of the previous charges against them. (This is incredibly unusual and the usual statement would have been that he simply felt there was insufficient evidence to prove the charges in court.)

Just how much more evidence do you want? Its really rare to find a criminal case where its more obvious someone is innocent than this particular circumstance.

I think it is possible someone messed with the lab results or someone got paid off. Or they missed some of the sperm. Either way, no one has to worry anymore b/c NC is making sure it will be very difficult to prosecute anyone with money or power by instating some new laws as a result of this case.

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: spittledip
I think it is possible someone messed with the lab results or someone got paid off. Or they missed some of the sperm. Either way, no one has to worry anymore b/c NC is making sure it will be very difficult to prosecute anyone with money or power by instating some new laws as a result of this case.

Uh, you do realize the SAME FRIGGING DNA TESTER agreed to withhold the evidence from the defense teams and could end up in serious trouble for this because it so strongly worked in favor of the prosecutor instead of a more neutral role in the case? That doesn't even remotely match up with the idea he was somehow trying to get the lacrosse players off in this case. Note that Nifong DIDN'T try another test somewhere else even though he could have easily arranged that if he suspected tampering.

There is no credible evidence suggesting the stripper was raped by any of the lacrosse players, you seem to be enjoying a conspiracy theory instead of bothering to look at the facts.

It also appears the accuser has a history of mental illness on top of everything else by the way.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Aegeon

Originally posted by: spittledip
I think it is possible someone messed with the lab results or someone got paid off. Or they missed some of the sperm. Either way, no one has to worry anymore b/c NC is making sure it will be very difficult to prosecute anyone with money or power by instating some new laws as a result of this case.

Uh, you do realize the SAME FRIGGING DNA TESTER agreed to withhold the evidence from the defense teams and could end up in serious trouble for this because it so strongly worked in favor of the prosecutor instead of a more neutral role in the case? That doesn't even remotely match up with the idea he was somehow trying to get the lacrosse players off in this case. Note that Nifong DIDN'T try another test somewhere else even though he could have easily arranged that if he suspected tampering.

There is no credible evidence suggesting the stripper was raped by any of the lacrosse players, you seem to be enjoying a conspiracy theory instead of bothering to look at the facts.

It also appears the accuser has a history of mental illness on top of everything else by the way.

you have no links to back up your assumptions...

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: Aegeon

Originally posted by: spittledip
I think it is possible someone messed with the lab results or someone got paid off. Or they missed some of the sperm. Either way, no one has to worry anymore b/c NC is making sure it will be very difficult to prosecute anyone with money or power by instating some new laws as a result of this case.

Uh, you do realize the SAME FRIGGING DNA TESTER agreed to withhold the evidence from the defense teams and could end up in serious trouble for this because it so strongly worked in favor of the prosecutor instead of a more neutral role in the case? That doesn't even remotely match up with the idea he was somehow trying to get the lacrosse players off in this case. Note that Nifong DIDN'T try another test somewhere else even though he could have easily arranged that if he suspected tampering.

There is no credible evidence suggesting the stripper was raped by any of the lacrosse players, you seem to be enjoying a conspiracy theory instead of bothering to look at the facts.

It also appears the accuser has a history of mental illness on top of everything else by the way.

you have no links to back up your assumptions...

The news has been reporting those facts for a while now.

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
you have no links to back up your assumptions...

Look at most of the current news stories for the comments about "sealed medical records", of the accuser being the reason they decided not to press charges against her. That's effectively code for her having mental illness issues in the past.

As to the second question.

The head of a private DNA laboratory said under oath today that he and District Attorney Mike Nifong agreed not to report DNA results favorable to Duke lacrosse players charged with rape.

Brian Meehan, director of DNA Security of Burlington, said his lab found DNA from unidentified men in the underwear, pubic hair and rectum of the woman who said she was gang-raped at a lacrosse party in March. Nurses at Duke Hospital collected the samples a few hours after the alleged assault. Meehan said the DNA did not come from Reade Seligmann, David Evans, or Collin Finnerty, who have been charged with rape and sexual assault in the case...

Under questioning by Jim Cooney, a defense attorney for Seligmann, Meehan admitted that his report violated his laboratory?s standards by not reporting results of all tests.

http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/521773.html