Dubai - a brilliant article on what we all know

[blackangst1]

You have to remember how ideologues function. All ambiguous data proves them right.

If something good happend, the free market ideologue credits the free market elements in the economy.

If something bad happenes, the free market ideologue blames the governmental involvement.

Isn't it obvious, they wonder, how the free market ideology is right?

So, when a 'free market' ideologue has the 'cesspool' (credit to Greenman) he's usually not forced to face put in front of him, naturally, he reacts with the compassion the free market lacks, and to keep from having to face his ideology would lead to that sort of thing, he decides that it's proof the free market wouldn't allow it to happen.

If someone could tie him down and show him the free market does cause those things, he'd start rationalizing why they're ok.

It's a lot of work just to get them to drop the ideology and actually deal rationally.

You know there are ideologues on both sides, right?

If something good happend, the progressive ideologue credits government involvement "see look what we did".

If something bad happens, the progressive ideologue blames too much free market reign.

Im sure that oversight was unintentional, right?

 

[Argo]

Yeah, but they don't know about the passport thing. They are told they can leave anytime, but when they arrive their passport is taken from them and the Dubai police just turn a blind eye.

These people aren't like us. They don't have access to the news or even televisions. They live in shitty villages in 3rd world countries with no access to outside news.

Agreed, but whoever *exports* those people out of their native countries does so without hindrance from their native government. So my point is their native government doesn't care. Heck, they're probably happy - less hungry mouthes to worry about.

 

[Craig234]

I just came back from a 2 week vacation in Dubai, so unlike most of you "armchair quarterbacks" I actually do have some *real* experiences to go on.

Your report is similar to the other feedback here. You don't need to insult other people's comments that happen to be accurate to get credit for valuable first-hand information.

IMO, the biggest issue I saw was the disparity between with first 2 classes and the working class. They bring in hundreds of thousands of people from very poor countries and really give them very little in return.

I'm a little torn on that...

People terriblly abused, enslaved, amd you are "a little torn". What a monster you are then.

You can argue next why you are a little torn of the return of slavery to the US. After all, conditions are pretty bad in Africa today, so you can say that being owned, beaten, abused, isn't all that much worse.

You can make the point if you like about how bad things are in the 'source countries'. A moral person would be inclined to say somthing abuot the importance of improving those long-exploited countries.

Being "a little torn" over the abuses is a pathetic response.

On the other hand, a lot of times those folks are being taken advantage off due to their lack of education - they are being lied to, and generally treated very badly (beaten, made to work outside in 110 degree weather, etc). My personal stance on this is - if their own governments (Indian/Phillipines/etc) doesn't want to do anything about that, who are we to complain?

A human being, technically, even if one who is lacking moral development.

 

[Craig234]

You know there are ideologues on both sides, right?

If something good happend, the progressive ideologue credits government involvement "see look what we did".

If something bad happens, the progressive ideologue blames too much free market reign.

Im sure that oversight was unintentional, right?

The flaws of ideology are not partisan in theory. In practice, they are. Not all sides are equally prone to them.

If I discuss the flaws in why people are flat earthers, it's not correct to say theyexist the same in round-worlders. THey're not mirror groups.

And right-wingers and left-wingers, neither perfect, are not mirror groups. THe same flaws I describe in the right arenot equally accurate for the left.

But that's one of your basic flaws, that you will violently disagree with thay because of your own misunderstanding, and you have rarely gotten any benefits from posts telling you that.

So, you go ahead and make your own wrong mirror comments, and I'll ignore them for lack of anything to help you get why they're wrong.

 

[blackangst1]

The flaws of ideology are not partisan in theory. In practice, they are. Not all sides are equally prone to them.

If I discuss the flaws in why people are flat earthers, it's not correct to say theyexist the same in round-worlders. THey're not mirror groups.

And right-wingers and left-wingers, neither perfect, are not mirror groups. THe same flaws I describe in the right arenot equally accurate for the left.

But that's one of your basic flaws, that you will violently disagree with thay because of your own misunderstanding, and you have rarely gotten any benefits from posts telling you that.

So, you go ahead and make your own wrong mirror comments, and I'll ignore them for lack of anything to help you get why they're wrong.

Why would I violently disagree? I didnt indicate or hint at anything "mirror" or exact. I was pointing out that you incorrectly identified these ideologues as being right wing in nature. And they arent. But this is typical of you. You will wave your hand and brush off the left's mistakes, and highlight and expand the right's. Its just your nature.

 

[Craig234]

Why would I violently disagree? I didnt indicate or hint at anything "mirror" or exact. I was pointing out that you incorrectly identified these ideologues as being right wing in nature. And they arent. But this is typical of you. You will wave your hand and brush off the left's mistakes, and highlight and expand the right's. Its just your nature.

THese oneare typcally right, and you are wrong about that. The left has its own. You say you don't violently disagree, and then post your violent disagreement wrong attack.

 

[Zebo]

I just came back from a 2 week vacation in Dubai, so unlike most of you "armchair quarterbacks" I actually do have some *real* experiences to go on.

For starters, the "class gap" is definitely there. There are really 3 classes in Dubai:

1) Locals - those are people who were either born into wealth, or acquired wealth through some sort of government position (government there really takes care of their own, if you are a citizen and have some very minimal desire to work you can land a fairly high paying job)
2) European/American/Canadian expats - those are folks who came to Dubai to make money. Usually they fall into the category of folks who're making 10 times more money in Dubai that they'll ever make in their home countries.
3) Working class - these are almost exclusively Indian/Phillipino/African expats. Like others mentioned they tend to be treated fairly poorly on average (at least by our western standards), and paid next to nothing. These make up more than 50% of Dubai population.

As far as rights go - the country is definitely very liberal compared to other arab countries. They may have a number of "backwards" laws and customs by our western standards, but I went there with an open mind - you cannot expect everybody to follow your belief system.

IMO, the biggest issue I saw was the disparity between with first 2 classes and the working class. They bring in hundreds of thousands of people from very poor countries and really give them very little in return.

I'm a little torn on that - from one side, those folks were probably going to starve in their home countries, and even if they make next to nothing it's better than what they had before. I was told some of those folks were literally sleeping in the boxes in their home countries.

On the other hand, a lot of times those folks are being taken advantage off due to their lack of education - they are being lied to, and generally treated very badly (beaten, made to work outside in 110 degree weather, etc). My personal stance on this is - if their own governments (Indian/Phillipines/etc) doesn't want to do anything about that, who are we to complain?

This is exactly how it was when I was in Saudi but I was there a year. It's absoluty true about locals - one friend, Talal make about 250K a year managing a crew of imported drivers, fellow Muslims who made ~ $30 a day. Quite a disparity. Talal didn't work perse, he a male secretary who took calls and dispatched - mainly just schmoozed preyed shopped and grew fat. He also got a free house from govt and free HC etc. Yeah you make a lot, I don't know about 10x I made 4x - but I never want to go back.

Anyway why complain? Have you no respect for Human Rights? Does injustice mean nothing? I guess what I mean is when I see something like someone getting beaten my first response is to want to beat the beater. If I see marvelous wealth next to abject poverty I tend to have a problem with that too - primarily because the former can make virtual slaves out of the later because they need to eat.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Honestly, I just couldn't live there. I would be ashamed to live there and therefore support and fund such slavery. That's why the attitudes of the westerners is so sad. These guys are supposed to come from countries that value freedom and rights for all citizens, and yet they are happy to trample over people in Dubai for an easier life.

 

[Craig234]

Argo could learn from zebo and stinkypinky on this. Disgustingly, economics academia tends to strip moral develpment away from people, including culturally, where concern for the poor is a weak inperfection.

'Tut tut, sir. You are concerned for the poor?

How juvenile. Let us grownups know when you can have a productive discussion.'

Amd immorality is so perpetuated. Funny enough, most of the economists' paychecks are not signed by the poor. This is the source of Ward Churchills' "Little Eichmanns", regardless whether he applied it well.

This is where economists who do not play along - the Paul Krugmans, the Joseph Sitglitzes, the Galbraiths - are so useful, breaking out from the pack.

You see it each industry - among the 'economic hit men', John Perkins; among th healthcare insurers, the guy who was a Cigna VP for marketing, among the defense insiders Daniel Ellsberg.

Unfortunately, these honest people tend to not get so much influence as their go along get along colleagues.

Our very ability to act morally as a nation, something that's supposed to be a core benefit to democracy, is undermined by our huge machine pushing the other direction and corrrupting the people.

How are the Saudis, the redsident of Dubai, to improve their immorality? Any one who speaks up that direction will be seen not as moral but as a threat and a traitor and margianalized or destroyed.

Any leader with the power to do something is unlikely to become leader with that agenda. They're stuck in their corrption - and while ours is different and less obvious, we're not much less stuck.

Just as the American South was corrupted and stuck on slavery, being destroyed in a war they were so unable to change it.

The morality of democracy is made a mockery of in the face of such inequities and corruption of the voters.

The flimsy rationalizations are a very popular commodity for the superior class. Every human being, though, has a moral issue to try to change it.

We can learn from the immoral den of Dubai, if we pay attention to what we have in common. Some of the same people condemning it, though, support the same rationalizations closer to home, with a blind eye.

The Dubai citizen explains how hopeless it is to help the underclass. The American explains how hopeless it is to help the black in poverty or others.

 

[Argo]

People terriblly abused, enslaved, amd you are "a little torn". What a monster you are then.

You can argue next why you are a little torn of the return of slavery to the US. After all, conditions are pretty bad in Africa today, so you can say that being owned, beaten, abused, isn't all that much worse.

You can make the point if you like about how bad things are in the 'source countries'. A moral person would be inclined to say somthing abuot the importance of improving those long-exploited countries.

Being "a little torn" over the abuses is a pathetic response.

Hmm - don't even know how to respond to that, since based on your response you already made up your mind and nothing will change it. I'm probably wasting my breath - but let me say this:

1) I do NOT think that the problem of the entire world are mine. There are enough problems in the country that I live in to last a lifetime, I don't want to spend time and energy worrying about others. If that makes me a monster - oh well.

2) Neither you, nor I have any first hand experience working in Dubai. How do you know those workers are actually worse off than what they were in their own countries? For all you know - there were dying from hunger there.

3) Your comparison to slavery was pointless, and was just meant to solicit emotional response. Slaves were forcefully removed from their home countries, made work for free and killed/raped without any repercussion. These workers have a choice and do get paid (even if badly). Also, last I heard non of them were killed or murdered, and heck most of them looked pretty healthy as well.

4) You are trying to apply "your view of the world" to everybody else. Just because you were raised believing in certain things - doesn't mean the rest of the world has to.

 

[Cattykit]

I find it amazing how some hard-core capitalists tend to ignore very basic human rights issues. Yet, when it comes down to economical issues, they're willing to invade, assassinate, and pressure the hell out of whoever is blocking the way. They don't want interference coming from governments and another organizations; however, they greatly interfere all others aspects of society for their own benefit.

If you think there's nothing you can do about it and that the problem of the entire of the world is not yours, what more can I say? But, it's a different matter when you add insult to injury. Didn't you get the part about how they were tricked into the land of torture with false promises? Didn't you get the part how their passport was taken away from them? You're just being ignorant because you want to live in your bubble.

BTW, just in case, don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-capitalist or anything close to that. I see holes in current capitalistic system and I want it to be better; otherwise, it is likely to collapses on its own. Think about why narcissistic-communism was so damn popular in that time-frame. One of the reasons is because capitalism back then was damn ugly.

 

[Argo]

.... yet, when it comes down to economical issues, they're willing to invade, assassinate, and pressure the hell out of whoever is blocking the way. They don't want interference coming from governments and another organizations; however, they greatly interfere all others aspects of society for their own benefit.

I am curious as to how you came to that conclusion about me, especially since it's the exact opposite of how I feel.

If you think there's nothing you can do about it and that the problem of the entire of the world is not yours, what more can I say? But, it's a different matter when you add insult to injury. Didn't you get the part about how they were tricked into the land of torture with false promises? Didn't you get the part how their passport was taken away from them? You're just being ignorant because you want to live in your bubble.

And my heart goes to those people. But I do not believe USA has to play the role of world's police force (which seems like what you're getting towards), especially when their own government seems to not even care.

 

[sandorski]

If I were to Live in such a nation with those kinds of Class issues, I would hope that I wouldn't take advantage of the situation like some of my Peers(First Worlders) have. That would be the best I could personally do in that situation. Other than verbalizing my disgust with what I see anyway.

It's likely I will never have to find out what I would do.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Hmm - don't even know how to respond to that, since based on your response you already made up your mind and nothing will change it. I'm probably wasting my breath - but let me say this:

1) I do NOT think that the problem of the entire world are mine. There are enough problems in the country that I live in to last a lifetime, I don't want to spend time and energy worrying about others. If that makes me a monster - oh well.

2) Neither you, nor I have any first hand experience working in Dubai. How do you know those workers are actually worse off than what they were in their own countries? For all you know - there were dying from hunger there.

3) Your comparison to slavery was pointless, and was just meant to solicit emotional response. Slaves were forcefully removed from their home countries, made work for free and killed/raped without any repercussion. These workers have a choice and do get paid (even if badly). Also, last I heard non of them were killed or murdered, and heck most of them looked pretty healthy as well.

4) You are trying to apply "your view of the world" to everybody else. Just because you were raised believing in certain things - doesn't mean the rest of the world has to.

I have worked in Abu Dhabi / Dubai for almost 9+ years and not all workers are worse off than in their own countries. But there are 2 very sad situations which are common.

1) is widespread and is that all workers hired from third world countries are paid very little for the work they do as compared to similar workers hired from US, UK, Europe, Australia etc. even for the exact same job.

2) There are a surprising number of cases of workers being promised one set of wages and terms and conditions (for which a lot of them take large loans to pay the unscrupulous agents in their countries as the promises are for much more money than they earn in their home countires) and once they land here the actual wages terms & conditions reduce to where they cannot afoord to leave and go back even if they are able to. It takes them years to earn enough to pay back the loans for which they may have hocked their family land / house / jewelery to the hilt. This includes menial and skilled workers. In essence they become indentured slaves as they cannot afford to lose their job and therefore will succumb to any pressure from their bosses.

Unfortunately the Govt's of Dubai & AD - for all their modern visions and aspirations - are terrible when it come to labor relations and labor laws. They have them on paper but enforcement is non-existent.

Sadly a lot of western expats also tend to become as cruel and callous towards the workers once they have lived and worked there for a while.

I was fortunate to be on ships or in the head office where we have a tradition of treating junior officers and crew very well. For e.g., all officers and crew get the same allowance for food on board and crew gets paid overtime so there is no abuse of working hours. And as senior officers we have to justify any high overtime costs.

And Dubai / AD are a couple of better places in the whole GCC area.


.

 

[Zebo]

Hmm - don't even know how to respond to that, since based on your response you already made up your mind and nothing will change it. I'm probably wasting my breath - but let me say this:

1) I do NOT think that the problem of the entire world are mine. There are enough problems in the country that I live in to last a lifetime, I don't want to spend time and energy worrying about others. If that makes me a monster - oh well.

2) Neither you, nor I have any first hand experience working in Dubai. How do you know those workers are actually worse off than what they were in their own countries? For all you know - there were dying from hunger there.

3) Your comparison to slavery was pointless, and was just meant to solicit emotional response. Slaves were forcefully removed from their home countries, made work for free and killed/raped without any repercussion. These workers have a choice and do get paid (even if badly). Also, last I heard non of them were killed or murdered, and heck most of them looked pretty healthy as well.

4) You are trying to apply "your view of the world" to everybody else. Just because you were raised believing in certain things - doesn't mean the rest of the world has to.

So we should just take our birth lottery and run with it? Sorry can't do it. Every-time I see a homeless person I think 'hey that could have been me' if I were born in different situation or location. Sure some is work and study to get out but most is not. And I don't think my 'views' are raised - they are universal. Even a hateful man totally indoctrinated with Arab/islamic supremacist attitudes like Osama says one issue they have is faboulus wealth Al-Saud has and it's not spread amongst the Ummah. This is a recurring theme everywhere with every peoples so don't try and pretend is just "our view of the world" - it's just some have excused and accepted their privileged to be pigs. A sort of new "rights of Kings" but instead use religion of economics.

 

[TruePaige]

I know absolutley no people working in Dubai, jeesh where are these 4x and 10x paying jobs?

 

[Zebo]

I know absolutley no people working in Dubai, jeesh where are these 4x and 10x paying jobs?

KBR, Lockheed logistics, hospitals, etc etc etc.

 

[Mike Gayner]

Can you imagine actually living somewhere where the buck ultimately stops with a guy who is in his position because he was born into it?

 

[TruePaige]

KBR, Lockheed logistics, hospitals, etc etc etc.

Hell, I'd work for them in Dubai if the price was right. Would have to make enough to be able to go home and visit my family and still make lots of cash.

Only reason I'm not sure if I'd want to live there though is, since my wife is a female (gasp) and the middle east isn't known as a bastion of female power, I don't know if she'd enjoy it.

 

[StageLeft]

There are a surprising number of cases of workers being promised one set of wages and terms and conditions (for which a lot of them take large loans to pay the unscrupulous agents in their countries as the promises are for much more money than they earn in their home countires) and once they land here the actual wages terms & conditions reduce to where they cannot afoord to leave and go back even if they are able to. It takes them years to earn enough to pay back the loans for which they may have hocked their family land / house / jewelery to the hilt. This includes menial and skilled workers. In essence they become indentured slaves as they cannot afford to lose their job and therefore will succumb to any pressure from their bosses.

Yep, and if you are up to your nose in debt working to pay it off without a passport and no options that is slavery for all practical purposes.

It's sad that anybody here would think that just because somebody appears to do something willfully that they have as much clout in a relationship as the person they are doing something for and that it's morally ok. In certain circumstances you can encourage people to do deplorable things. If you were starving and I had food for you it wouldn't take long before I could get you to lick my boots for a granola bar. You'd do it eventually.

 

[Cattykit]

I am curious as to how you came to that conclusion about me, especially since it's the exact opposite of how I feel.



And my heart goes to those people. But I do not believe USA has to play the role of world's police force (which seems like what you're getting towards), especially when their own government seems to not even care.

If your heart goes to those people, you would've not said what you said in the first place. I'm not saying USA should take an action, I'm saying you, in personal level, shouldn't justify the situation and add insult to injury. What you've been saying is like 'hey, those people were being raped but I'm being nice by only robbing them, so I'm better than rapists, right?'

 

[StageLeft]

More bad news for Dubai:

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/dubai_debt_crisis_halts_building

 

[Exterous]

More bad news for Dubai:

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/dubai_debt_crisis_halts_building

Well, one can't fault them for small thinking

And mark my words," he added, "We will still put a man on the artificial moon we're building by 2025

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Well, those maids can work for pennies on the dollar in Dubai or sit in their home country and starve to death.

This is why jobs are leaving America.

American supply of labor + third world supply of labor
divided by
American demand for labor (capital) + third world demand for labor (capital)
equals?

Equals = Third world standard of living and poverty for Americans because the supply of poor people around the world is almost infinite compared to the demand for labor (capital) which in this context is almost entirely American.

We cannot compete with third world labor and thus need to enact economic policies that will preserve the American middle class and standard of living and protect it from the almost infinite supply of impoverished and low-age labor, including college-educated labor, around the world.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Just as a reminder, my position on the issue has long been:

We should be concerned about the poor of the world, not ignore or exploit them.

Global economics are the leading way to help the poor in the world. It's one big economy.

What we really need to do is to bombard these third world nations with birth control. Helping the third world get its overpopulation problems and thus resource scarcity problems under control is probably the best thing we can do to help them.