Dubai - a brilliant article on what we all know

[Craig234]

Hahahahahaahahaha. So one person has the semblance of a conscience is somehow proof that if it wasn't for those pesky laws, human kindness would show through? Crack open a history book, I know, reading is scary, and take a look at the early 1900's in the US.

You have to remember how ideologues function. All ambiguous data proves them right.

If something good happend, the free market ideologue credits the free market elements in the economy.

If something bad happenes, the free market ideologue blames the governmental involvement.

Isn't it obvious, they wonder, how the free market ideology is right?

So, when a 'free market' ideologue has the 'cesspool' (credit to Greenman) he's usually not forced to face put in front of him, naturally, he reacts with the compassion the free market lacks, and to keep from having to face his ideology would lead to that sort of thing, he decides that it's proof the free market wouldn't allow it to happen.

If someone could tie him down and show him the free market does cause those things, he'd start rationalizing why they're ok.

It's a lot of work just to get them to drop the ideology and actually deal rationally.

 

[StageLeft]

Even without the horrible underbelly scars exposed by the OP's article, it's a place where only the mechanical aspect of life exists.

This is what my brother said after being there a few years. Soulless, endless concrete full of fat expatriates who drink and have a love for money and nothing else.

 

[nobodyknows]

It's not good when someone like Obama is in power. He wants to control prices, spending, etal. (And Trade)

Free trade is good... Controlled trade is not good.

Dictatorship is good.... if you're the Dictaor.

 

[Craig234]

It's not good when someone like Obama is in power. He wants to control prices

What prices haqs Obama controlled, exactly?

When was out at the mall, eveyrthing had new little price tags with rainbows and an "O". Was that him?

, spending

What spending? Americans'?

Or do you mean goverment spending? Why, I bet that dictator will be so power grabbing he'll send a 'proposed budget' to the Congress telling THEM how HE thinks the money should be spent! Tyrant!

, etal. (And Trade)

Is "etal" Latin for "I think I could use more to beef up the argument but don't have anything"?

What's his 'total control' of trade doing, exactly? Have the ships stopped sailing back and forth?

Free trade is good... Controlled trade is not good.

Yes, some tyrant saying you can't sell good here made by 8 year old slaves that are cheaper is wrong.

 

[theflyingpig]

Any nation infested with Islam is doomed to failure. Don't try to deny this, because you can't. Everyone knows this.

 

[sandorski]

How about not paying those SE asain dudes who built that big ass icicle (Burj Dubai)? Entice em with work then ship em out when bill is due.

Not really.

 

[alphatarget1]

This is what my brother said after being there a few years. Soulless, endless concrete full of fat expatriates who drink and have a love for money and nothing else.

Not to derail the thread but this statement reminds me of Las Vegas.

 

[alphatarget1]

Any nation infested with Islam is doomed to failure. Don't try to deny this, because you can't. Everyone knows this.

I disagree. Christianity has some pretty messed up parts too (see old testament). It's all about how much of a value you place on your religion's values upon the country (hence we have separation of church and state).

I have no doubt in my mind if every religious person, be it Christians, Muslims, Jews, picked out the "good" parts of their religion (love thy neighbor for instance) and start ignoring "bad" parts, the world would be a better place.

That's an idealization, of course, which doesn't ever happen

 

[Zebo]

Just today in "modern western Dubai" Female tourist reports rape to police, is arrested for extramarital sex and drinking alcohol

Don't tell folks lies - it can get them killed or imprisoned - no joke.

The woman, a Muslim of Pakistani descent, was celebrating her engagement to her 44-year-old boyfriend, and was allegedly attacked when she passed out in a hotel lavatory.

Despite approaching police about the attack, she was arrested after admitting to "illegal drinking" outside licensed premises as well as having sexual intercourse outside marriage. Her fiancé was also charged with the same offences.

The couple from London are now reportedly on bail and understood to be awaiting trial after having their passports confiscated. Should they be found guilty, they could face up to six years in jail.

The woman, who is said to have accepted her boyfriend's marriage proposal during a three-day break, admitted drinking too much alcohol as they celebrated at Dubai Marina's Address Hotel. The waiter, believed to be Syrian, is then said to have followed her into the toilets and raped her while she was in a state of semi-consciousness.

After her fiancé found out about the attack, they contacted police, but they were questioned about breaking the country's strict rules, which contain elements of Sharia law.

She was then made to give a blood test to prove she had been drinking, and only was given access to proper medical checks following an appeal from the British embassy, it is claimed.

A cellmate of the woman told The Sun: "She's a British girl but a Muslim, so I think they were tougher on her because of that.

"She was trying to report the rape but soon realised the policemen were more interested in how often she has sex with her boyfriend."

Her attacker is believed to have denied rape, claiming she consented, but he has also been charged with "illegal sex".

A spokesman for the Foreign Office told The Daily Telegraph: "We can confirm two British nationals were arrested in Dubai on 1 January. Our embassy in Dubai is providing consular assistance and we cannot confirm or release further details about the case"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...oman-arrested-in-Dubai-after-being-raped.html

 

[Zebo]

I disagree. Christianity has some pretty messed up parts too (see old testament). It's all about how much of a value you place on your religion's values upon the country (hence we have separation of church and state).

I have no doubt in my mind if every religious person, be it Christians, Muslims, Jews, picked out the "good" parts of their religion (love thy neighbor for instance) and start ignoring "bad" parts, the world would be a better place.

That's an idealization, of course, which doesn't ever happen

Where is the disagree part? - you agree with his premise infestation is bad.

 

[JS80]

I disagree. Christianity has some pretty messed up parts too (see old testament). It's all about how much of a value you place on your religion's values upon the country (hence we have separation of church and state).

I have no doubt in my mind if every religious person, be it Christians, Muslims, Jews, picked out the "good" parts of their religion (love thy neighbor for instance) and start ignoring "bad" parts, the world would be a better place.

That's an idealization, of course, which doesn't ever happen

You are obvious ignorant of Christianity.

 

[Zebo]

You are obvious ignorant of Christianity.

How so? As if they didnt infest state(s) at one time too and have similar draconian laws because of it.

I thought his response was more a PC POVLOV deal typical here - can't criticize X because of what happened Y.

 

[grebe925]

Not to derail the thread but this statement reminds me of Las Vegas.

Having been to both places I think the difference is that Las Vegas doesn't pretend to be anything but Las Vegas. Whereas Dubai wants to roll itself into Last Vegas, New York, London, Paris, Singapore all put together. In the end, it ends up looking like none of them.

 

[RabidMongoose]

As expected, the Europeans mentioned in this article seem to enjoy an extension of slavery/colonialism. This article makes me sick.

 

[PJABBER]

This is what my brother said after being there a few years. Soulless, endless concrete full of fat expatriates who drink and have a love for money and nothing else.

A little bit of Paradise on earth that you can leave whenever the money and the booze runs out by boarding a modern jet aircraft or luxury motorcraft.

As opposed to Gulag, where life can be a might tougher.

In both, survival depends on knowing the rules.

 

[Cattykit]

Thanks Greenman.

In response to your not knowing a single conservative that wants an uncontrolled market,because they quickly become a cesspool. I think many think they want it and base decisions on that idea.

You might be right that if they realy understood they'd change their position, but it seems to me many of them are of the option that they are for it and have knee-jerk responses to any government policy of 'that's bad because it's not free market' and don't consider the issue itself. That's what makes it a 'blind ideology'. They don't understand what you said that their 'free market' isn't the case and if it were it'd be a cesspool. They just think 'free market is reat, so say no to that government proposal'.

They are in an environment that's well protected from the real effects of free market, and ignorance is bliss. They don't have to deal with a cesspool, they can just attack particular good programs.

(At this point, I just lost most of one of my favorite posts in a long time. I'd meant to just save it instead of posting it and because of this limited browser, I had to cut and paste pieces and trash the other parts to make room in the process, and then I hit the wrong button losing the whole post, except the fragments left in the window here. I'm pretty disgusted and I guess I'll post the fragments and a bit I remember.)

Indeed, Alan Greenspan and others, despite this view, had the simplistic notion that 'the market is always knows best', and strongly opposed government reglation as an ideology, with a major effect on our country. Greenspan finally said his ideology was wrong, that the market cannot control its own harmful excesses. Oops.

I remember one point being to say if I suggest a credt card interest rate cap, discuss the pros and cons of that, don't just say 'that's not free market' and ignore the issue.

(Sorry, but several paragraphs of supporting structure and points are just lost here. I finally went on to mention my opinion of the 'invisible hand' at the end of the post.)

There are market efficiencies. If a community having 25% farmers, 10% millers and 5% food salesman is an especially efficient ratio of labor, then people doing what's best for them tends to lead to that ratio without uneeding a central government determine it's a good ratio and assign people to those roles - and indeed Smith IMO would argue the 'invisible hand' is more likely to get the ratio right than planners.

If you get too many farmers, the oversupply of product decreases prices making it less attractive to farm, making farmers look at milling. Too few farmers, it looks like good money.

My opinion is that there is some truth to that but it's limited. See the quotes from Stiglitz and Chomsky for examples.There are many 'corrupting influences' to the 'invisible hand'.

Smith himself understood many dangers of a blind 'free market' but many of his claimed followers ignored that.

I'd rather not see 'free market' mentioned in a topic, it's just a false distraction, like calling everything you don't like 'communist'. "Free Market" that extreme is a bad, simplistic ideology.

Great post! :thumbsup:

 

[Zebo]

Hero of free market Adam Smith on unions: says essentially if capital can organize so should labor.

We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combination of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labor above their actual rate.

When workers combine, masters ... never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combination of servants, laborers, and journeymen.

 

[Zorkorist]

Well of course they should, try.

-John

 

[tvarad]

On a related note:

Abu Dhabi sheik in torture trial found innocent

AL AIN, United Arab Emirates – A member of the United Arab Emirates ruling family being tried in connection with the videotaped beating of an Afghan man has been cleared of all charges.

Presiding judge Mubarak al-Awad pronounced Sheik Issa bin Zayed Al Nahyan "innocent" of all charges.

Al-Awad read the verdict Sunday in a UAE criminal court in the oasis city of Al Ain.

The case has drawn intense scrutiny not only because Sheik Issa is half brother of the Emirati president, but also because the graphic beating was videotaped.

The footage surfaced during a U.S. lawsuit by Sheik Issa's former business associate.

==================

As Mel Brooks would say "It's good to be the King" (or sheik in this case).

 

[Argo]

I just came back from a 2 week vacation in Dubai, so unlike most of you "armchair quarterbacks" I actually do have some *real* experiences to go on.

For starters, the "class gap" is definitely there. There are really 3 classes in Dubai:

1) Locals - those are people who were either born into wealth, or acquired wealth through some sort of government position (government there really takes care of their own, if you are a citizen and have some very minimal desire to work you can land a fairly high paying job)
2) European/American/Canadian expats - those are folks who came to Dubai to make money. Usually they fall into the category of folks who're making 10 times more money in Dubai that they'll ever make in their home countries.
3) Working class - these are almost exclusively Indian/Phillipino/African expats. Like others mentioned they tend to be treated fairly poorly on average (at least by our western standards), and paid next to nothing. These make up more than 50% of Dubai population.

As far as rights go - the country is definitely very liberal compared to other arab countries. They may have a number of "backwards" laws and customs by our western standards, but I went there with an open mind - you cannot expect everybody to follow your belief system.

IMO, the biggest issue I saw was the disparity between with first 2 classes and the working class. They bring in hundreds of thousands of people from very poor countries and really give them very little in return.

I'm a little torn on that - from one side, those folks were probably going to starve in their home countries, and even if they make next to nothing it's better than what they had before. I was told some of those folks were literally sleeping in the boxes in their home countries.

On the other hand, a lot of times those folks are being taken advantage off due to their lack of education - they are being lied to, and generally treated very badly (beaten, made to work outside in 110 degree weather, etc). My personal stance on this is - if their own governments (Indian/Phillipines/etc) doesn't want to do anything about that, who are we to complain?

 

[JS80]

I just came back from a 2 week vacation in Dubai, so unlike most of you "armchair quarterbacks" I actually do have some *real* experiences to go on.

For starters, the "class gap" is definitely there. There are really 3 classes in Dubai:

1) Locals - those are people who were either born into wealth, or acquired wealth through some sort of government position (government there really takes care of their own, if you are a citizen and have some very minimal desire to work you can land a fairly high paying job)
2) European/American/Canadian expats - those are folks who came to Dubai to make money. Usually they fall into the category of folks who're making 10 times more money in Dubai that they'll ever make in their home countries.
3) Working class - these are almost exclusively Indian/Phillipino/African expats. Like others mentioned they tend to be treated fairly poorly on average (at least by our western standards), and paid next to nothing. These make up more than 50% of Dubai population.

As far as rights go - the country is definitely very liberal compared to other arab countries. They may have a number of "backwards" laws and customs by our western standards, but I went there with an open mind - you cannot expect everybody to follow your belief system.

IMO, the biggest issue I saw was the disparity between with first 2 classes and the working class. They bring in hundreds of thousands of people from very poor countries and really give them very little in return.

I'm a little torn on that - from one side, those folks were probably going to starve in their home countries, and even if they make next to nothing it's better than what they had before. I was told some of those folks were literally sleeping in the boxes in their home countries.

On the other hand, a lot of times those folks are being taken advantage off due to their lack of education - they are being lied to, and generally treated very badly (beaten, made to work outside in 110 degree weather, etc). My personal stance on this is - if their own governments (Indian/Phillipines/etc) doesn't want to do anything about that, who are we to complain?

The biggest issue is that they confiscate the laborers' passports and pay them half of what they were promised.

 

[Argo]

The biggest issue is that they confiscate the laborers' passports and pay them half of what they were promised.

Yet people continue to come.

 

[Aimster]

Arrested for sex before marriage?
yeah.. I am sure the ruling family doesn't have a line of girls kidnapped from europe and forced into slavery.

 

[Greenman]

Thanks Greenman.

In response to your not knowing a single conservative that wants an uncontrolled market,because they quickly become a cesspool. I think many think they want it and base decisions on that idea.

You might be right that if they realy understood they'd change their position, but it seems to me many of them are of the option that they are for it and have knee-jerk responses to any government policy of 'that's bad because it's not free market' and don't consider the issue itself. That's what makes it a 'blind ideology'. They don't understand what you said that their 'free market' isn't the case and if it were it'd be a cesspool. They just think 'free market is reat, so say no to that government proposal'.

They are in an environment that's well protected from the real effects of free market, and ignorance is bliss. They don't have to deal with a cesspool, they can just attack particular good programs.

(At this point, I just lost most of one of my favorite posts in a long time. I'd meant to just save it instead of posting it and because of this limited browser, I had to cut and paste pieces and trash the other parts to make room in the process, and then I hit the wrong button losing the whole post, except the fragments left in the window here. I'm pretty disgusted and I guess I'll post the fragments and a bit I remember.)

Indeed, Alan Greenspan and others, despite this view, had the simplistic notion that 'the market is always knows best', and strongly opposed government reglation as an ideology, with a major effect on our country. Greenspan finally said his ideology was wrong, that the market cannot control its own harmful excesses. Oops.

I remember one point being to say if I suggest a credt card interest rate cap, discuss the pros and cons of that, don't just say 'that's not free market' and ignore the issue.

(Sorry, but several paragraphs of supporting structure and points are just lost here. I finally went on to mention my opinion of the 'invisible hand' at the end of the post.)

There are market efficiencies. If a community having 25% farmers, 10% millers and 5% food salesman is an especially efficient ratio of labor, then people doing what's best for them tends to lead to that ratio without uneeding a central government determine it's a good ratio and assign people to those roles - and indeed Smith IMO would argue the 'invisible hand' is more likely to get the ratio right than planners.

If you get too many farmers, the oversupply of product decreases prices making it less attractive to farm, making farmers look at milling. Too few farmers, it looks like good money.

My opinion is that there is some truth to that but it's limited. See the quotes from Stiglitz and Chomsky for examples.There are many 'corrupting influences' to the 'invisible hand'.

Smith himself understood many dangers of a blind 'free market' but many of his claimed followers ignored that.

I'd rather not see 'free market' mentioned in a topic, it's just a false distraction, like calling everything you don't like 'communist'. "Free Market" that extreme is a bad, simplistic ideology.

We're on exactly the same page. I would say we need a moderated free market, because there has to be some rules in place to prevent the unscrupulous from taking advantage of the uninformed (a problem that will never be solved). Where we would argue is in exactly what those rules and limits are, and how far we're willing to let the market swing. The primary issue being discussed in any free vs controlled market is what sort of controls are in place. It's been my experience that liberals prefer active monitoring and positive reinforcement that whatever doctrine is in place is being met. Conservatives seem to prefer what amounts to a negative feedback system, in that nothing is done until some segment of the system goes out of bounds, and is then corrected with the minimum action required.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Yet people continue to come.

Yeah, but they don't know about the passport thing. They are told they can leave anytime, but when they arrive their passport is taken from them and the Dubai police just turn a blind eye.

These people aren't like us. They don't have access to the news or even televisions. They live in shitty villages in 3rd world countries with no access to outside news.