Drug War Was Meant To Target Black People

[glenn1]

So let me understand this, they only experimented on black people and still early phases of experiment were justified?

You're missing a key distinction between "unethical" and whether it was "justified." In the earliest days of the experiments a viable treatment didn't exist and the researchers were just observing the disease progression, so there really wasn't any ethics issues involved. It's only when a treatment became available and it was deliberately withheld to allow the study to continue that it became an ethics problem.

Whether the study was "justified" is another issue of economics and motive; if blacks were selected for some valid scientific reason or just higher levels of availability as voluntary subjects it's not unjustified either. Just because the study *could* have used whites (or Asians, or whatever) doesn't make it unjustified either any more than if scientists used mice with white fur vs. colored fur.

 

[EOM]

punishment between crack cocaine and powdered was somewhat different as well..supposedly to the detriment of the black drug users vs white drug users...

 

[BurnItDwn]

hail satan

Hail and Kill!

 

[Brian Stirling]

Which puts Republicans where, exactly?



Your comment on the Iraq war is bullshit-

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/8/21/1413063/-Hillary-Clinton-s-Vote-on-the-AUMF

NAFTA & the WTO supersede GATT which was instituted in 1949 iirc.

There's a helluva lot more to job loss than offshoring-

http://www.scdigest.com/assets/newsViews/08-06-12-2.php

That kind of trend covers nearly all aspects of employment right down to who's answering the phone.



More scattershot bullshit. There are a lot of other issues separating the Parties. Energy. Taxes. Environment. Public lands. Healthcare & even the overall role of Govt. That's only part of it.

Repub leaders believe that tech progress should result in greater profit for capitalists even if it means reduced national income share & purchasing power for working people in this country. That's obvious. It's even more pronounced now that they've gone multinational & derive increasing profit from the world market that's much larger than our own.

So if I'm a widget maker offshored to China & the US institutes high tariffs on widgets it just means that Americans will pay more for widgets because the numbers don't work out right to move production to the US. I sell widgets world wide & the US is only a part of the market.

OTOH, if US taxes on my corporate entity & my personal income go up then the govt has more money to spend to compensate for job loss & stagnant US wages, even to create more steady govt jobs.

Beyond that, there are issues of social justice & holding our economic leadership responsible. Why should we allow them to soar to new heights while leaving the rest of us beat down on the false promises of trickle down? Because they own? All things considered, that's become insufficient cause for policies Righties embrace like a lover.

Hillary supported the war -- FACT!

Yep, GATT has been around for a long time, but there isn't a single GATT agreement, signed in 1947, and let as is. There have been a number of changes to GATT over the years and the major changes that occurred in 1993/1994 that concurred with the WTO and SIGNED INTO LAW BY CLINTON played a major role in accelerating the outsourcing game.

Supporters of outsourcing love to make the claim that the work was going away anyway due to automation and they've been real good at throwing out "studies" and other bullshit to support that claim. Most of the job loss in the USA is due to the factory closing in the US and the production moving to China and other places with cheap labor, low spending for workplace safety controls, and environmental controls that only exist on paper.

You don't pack up your US factory and incur the higher transport costs so you can spend about the same money for a highly automated factory in China -- you simply throw more cheap people at it. In short, the automation thread is a red herring designed to throw people off.

Yes, there are difference between the parties -- I've not argued otherwise. There's no question but that the R's, needing to placate there religious base, feel the need to continue there homophobic and anti-Hispanic (catholic don't you know) ways. D supporters make much of this and implicitly argue about the lesser of two evils. Meanwhile, millions of folks in the middle class are set adrift.

Flint MI used to be a prosperous city with good paying jobs but when industry left the economy died and so did the tax base. The folks promoting these job killing trade deals and those that carry there water by claiming this was going to happen anyway are just as responsible for the poisoned water as the nut job Governor and his henchmen that, sighting fiscal need, switched the water supply. There's a direct line from the loss of jobs due to outsourcing, to the reduced income, to the reduced tax base, to the cost cutting for the water supply.

But hey, keep saying that this is just a Republican created problem while Hillary pockets more billionaire money for the good of the nation...


Brian

 

[JSt0rm]

Hillary was lied to along with all of us.

 

[WelshBloke]

You're missing a key distinction between "unethical" and whether it was "justified." In the earliest days of the experiments a viable treatment didn't exist and the researchers were just observing the disease progression, so there really wasn't any ethics issues involved. It's only when a treatment became available and it was deliberately withheld to allow the study to continue that it became an ethics problem.

Whether the study was "justified" is another issue of economics and motive; if blacks were selected for some valid scientific reason or just higher levels of availability as voluntary subjects it's not unjustified either. Just because the study *could* have used whites (or Asians, or whatever) doesn't make it unjustified either any more than if scientists used mice with white fur vs. colored fur.

Withholding effective treatment because you don't want to mess up your research says a lot about how the subjects of the experiment were viewed and their position in society.

There's no excuse at all for not giving them treatment as soon as it was available.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

And hippies.

Journalist Dan Baum wrote in the April cover story of Harper’s about how he interviewed Ehrlichman in 1994 while working on a book about drug prohibition. Ehrlichman provided some shockingly honest insight into the motives behind the drug war. From Harper’s:

“You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public disgrace and a stretch in federal prison, had little left to protect. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/nixon-drug-war-racist_us_56f16a0ae4b03a640a6bbda1

That gets filed under "No Shit Sherlock". Nixon demonizing drugs as part of his anti-hippie crusade has not been a secret for more than 40 years.

 

[Nebor]

Hillary was lied to along with all of us.

So no one who voted for the Iraq war is responsible for their vote?

 

[Nebor]

And people say government can't get anything done. This program seems to have done exactly what it was intended to do with incredible efficacy.

 

[Jhhnn]

Hillary was lied to along with all of us.

Yep. The AUMF was presented as a tool to force compliance with inspections. Despite compliance, GWB invaded anyway. He never intended otherwise.

It was a perfectly timed gun to the heads of Dem politicians following a masterful propaganda campaign of fear mongering and blood lust.

9/11 quickly became a bludgeon against all enemies, foreign & domestic.

 

[Jhhnn]

So no one who voted for the Iraq war is responsible for their vote?

Of course they are. OTOH, don't try to blur the line between those using coercion & deception to achieve the AUMF & their victims.

Bush was not compelled to act.

 

[Brian Stirling]

Hillary was lied to along with all of us.

Yes, but many saw through the lies -- I did!


Brian

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Who was coerced into voting for the Iraq War?

There were Dems that read the report and came to the conclusion that the Iraq War was not justifiable, btw, one of which is still in the running for this election.

 

[werepossum]

Hillary supported the war -- FACT!

Yep, GATT has been around for a long time, but there isn't a single GATT agreement, signed in 1947, and let as is. There have been a number of changes to GATT over the years and the major changes that occurred in 1993/1994 that concurred with the WTO and SIGNED INTO LAW BY CLINTON played a major role in accelerating the outsourcing game.

Supporters of outsourcing love to make the claim that the work was going away anyway due to automation and they've been real good at throwing out "studies" and other bullshit to support that claim. Most of the job loss in the USA is due to the factory closing in the US and the production moving to China and other places with cheap labor, low spending for workplace safety controls, and environmental controls that only exist on paper.

You don't pack up your US factory and incur the higher transport costs so you can spend about the same money for a highly automated factory in China -- you simply throw more cheap people at it. In short, the automation thread is a red herring designed to throw people off.

Yes, there are difference between the parties -- I've not argued otherwise. There's no question but that the R's, needing to placate there religious base, feel the need to continue there homophobic and anti-Hispanic (catholic don't you know) ways. D supporters make much of this and implicitly argue about the lesser of two evils. Meanwhile, millions of folks in the middle class are set adrift.

Flint MI used to be a prosperous city with good paying jobs but when industry left the economy died and so did the tax base. The folks promoting these job killing trade deals and those that carry there water by claiming this was going to happen anyway are just as responsible for the poisoned water as the nut job Governor and his henchmen that, sighting fiscal need, switched the water supply. There's a direct line from the loss of jobs due to outsourcing, to the reduced income, to the reduced tax base, to the cost cutting for the water supply.

But hey, keep saying that this is just a Republican created problem while Hillary pockets more billionaire money for the good of the nation...


Brian

Well said.

As far as the original point, I'll interrupt the left's love fest with yet another felon just long enough to point out three facts. First, absolutely no one associates heroin with black people. Second, Nixon ran on ENDING the war that the DEMOCRATS started and could not win. And third, Nixon had far more than two enemies.

 

[1prophet]

Hillary supported the war -- FACT!

Yep, GATT has been around for a long time, but there isn't a single GATT agreement, signed in 1947, and let as is. There have been a number of changes to GATT over the years and the major changes that occurred in 1993/1994 that concurred with the WTO and SIGNED INTO LAW BY CLINTON played a major role in accelerating the outsourcing game.

Supporters of outsourcing love to make the claim that the work was going away anyway due to automation and they've been real good at throwing out "studies" and other bullshit to support that claim. Most of the job loss in the USA is due to the factory closing in the US and the production moving to China and other places with cheap labor, low spending for workplace safety controls, and environmental controls that only exist on paper.

You don't pack up your US factory and incur the higher transport costs so you can spend about the same money for a highly automated factory in China -- you simply throw more cheap people at it. In short, the automation thread is a red herring designed to throw people off.

Yes, there are difference between the parties -- I've not argued otherwise. There's no question but that the R's, needing to placate there religious base, feel the need to continue there homophobic and anti-Hispanic (catholic don't you know) ways. D supporters make much of this and implicitly argue about the lesser of two evils. Meanwhile, millions of folks in the middle class are set adrift.

Flint MI used to be a prosperous city with good paying jobs but when industry left the economy died and so did the tax base. The folks promoting these job killing trade deals and those that carry there water by claiming this was going to happen anyway are just as responsible for the poisoned water as the nut job Governor and his henchmen that, sighting fiscal need, switched the water supply. There's a direct line from the loss of jobs due to outsourcing, to the reduced income, to the reduced tax base, to the cost cutting for the water supply.

But hey, keep saying that this is just a Republican created problem while Hillary pockets more billionaire money for the good of the nation...


Brian

Damn right, robot automation doesn't have anything on this.


Chinese Press Automation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-LLsODnuHI

 

[Jhhnn]

Hillary supported the war -- FACT!

Yep, GATT has been around for a long time, but there isn't a single GATT agreement, signed in 1947, and let as is. There have been a number of changes to GATT over the years and the major changes that occurred in 1993/1994 that concurred with the WTO and SIGNED INTO LAW BY CLINTON played a major role in accelerating the outsourcing game.

Supporters of outsourcing love to make the claim that the work was going away anyway due to automation and they've been real good at throwing out "studies" and other bullshit to support that claim. Most of the job loss in the USA is due to the factory closing in the US and the production moving to China and other places with cheap labor, low spending for workplace safety controls, and environmental controls that only exist on paper.

You don't pack up your US factory and incur the higher transport costs so you can spend about the same money for a highly automated factory in China -- you simply throw more cheap people at it. In short, the automation thread is a red herring designed to throw people off.

Yes, there are difference between the parties -- I've not argued otherwise. There's no question but that the R's, needing to placate there religious base, feel the need to continue there homophobic and anti-Hispanic (catholic don't you know) ways. D supporters make much of this and implicitly argue about the lesser of two evils. Meanwhile, millions of folks in the middle class are set adrift.

Flint MI used to be a prosperous city with good paying jobs but when industry left the economy died and so did the tax base. The folks promoting these job killing trade deals and those that carry there water by claiming this was going to happen anyway are just as responsible for the poisoned water as the nut job Governor and his henchmen that, sighting fiscal need, switched the water supply. There's a direct line from the loss of jobs due to outsourcing, to the reduced income, to the reduced tax base, to the cost cutting for the water supply.

But hey, keep saying that this is just a Republican created problem while Hillary pockets more billionaire money for the good of the nation...


Brian

And so what? Your crying over spilled milk won't put it back in the bottle. Jobs that have been lost offshore will not be coming back in any numbers. That's the new reality we must deal with. We just need to tap into the cashflow generated better than we have been. The only real way to do that is at the other end via taxes. Pay us with jobs or pay us with taxes because we need to get paid to maintain civil society, an attribute of American life that benefits everybody.

Or we can just listen to Donald & believe in false promises of yet another Job Creator.

 

[Brian Stirling]

And so what? Your crying over spilled milk won't put it back in the bottle. Jobs that have been lost offshore will not be coming back in any numbers. That's the new reality we must deal with. We just need to tap into the cashflow generated better than we have been. The only real way to do that is at the other end via taxes. Pay us with jobs or pay us with taxes because we need to get paid to maintain civil society, an attribute of American life that benefits everybody.

Or we can just listen to Donald & believe in false promises of yet another Job Creator.

Interesting that you would characterize the deconstruction of the middle class as "spilled milk". The right has there blinders and so does the left. The vast majority of people are being told to -- bend over!

Hey Flint MI ... go fuck yourself!


Brian

 

[Jhhnn]

Interesting that you would characterize the deconstruction of the middle class as "spilled milk". The right has there blinders and so does the left. The vast majority of people are being told to -- bend over!

Hey Flint MI ... go fuck yourself!


Brian

Trade has brought more cashflow & better margins than ever to American multinationals. How do working people tap into that instead of letting it go around us? How can we demand greater compensation for job loss if not with taxes?

Define a way to accomplish that, one that isn't just wishful thinking driven by Trumpist propaganda.

 

[1prophet]

Trade has brought more cashflow & better margins than ever to American multinationals. How do working people tap into that instead of letting it go around us? How can we demand greater compensation for job loss if not with taxes?

Define a way to accomplish that, one that isn't just wishful thinking driven by Trumpist propaganda.

So if you can't avoid the rape, sit back and enjoy the sex because you might get some child support?

Trickle down ain't happening neither Republican style nor this new Democrat bullshit apologetic talking point you have been brainwashed with, unless you can require all corporations who do any business in the US to declare all income, domestic and foreign, for tax purposes (with no loopholes) like every American citizen is required too.

President Hillary ain't touching that with a 10 foot pole and you know it.

 

[dank69]

So no one who voted for the Iraq war is responsible for their vote?

There is a vast difference between "responsible" and "supported," and even using responsible is pushing it.

 

[BoberFett]

Hillary was lied to along with all of us.

So you're saying she's gullible? Sounds like someone you don't want in the White House.

 

[Jhhnn]

So if you can't avoid the rape, sit back and enjoy the sex because you might get some child support?

Trickle down ain't happening neither Republican style nor this new Democrat bullshit apologetic talking point you have been brainwashed with, unless you can require all corporations who do any business in the US to declare all income, domestic and foreign, for tax purposes (with no loopholes) like every American citizen is required too.

President Hillary ain't touching that with a 10 foot pole and you know it.

What would you suggest instead? The Donald, or what?

There's really no going back, no way to rewrite History. There's only one direction, forward, and a wide arc of possibilities in that. Until working people find common cause in turning the system rather than tearing it down then the financial elite will have it the way they want it, the way they've made it with decades of effort & propaganda. The more they can convince us to tear down the govt of the people the greater their relative power becomes & the more able they are to fill the power vacuum left behind.

Government? It's the only way we can avoid becoming bugs on the windshield of financialized international Capitalism.

 

[ivwshane]

So you're saying she's gullible? Sounds like someone you don't want in the White House.

I don't think you know what the word gullible means.

 

[JSt0rm]

So you're saying she's gullible? Sounds like someone you don't want in the White House.

Along with most dems and all the repubs and most of the population. Id rather have someone who is gullible then someone willing to lie to the country to go into a war of profit.

 

[hal2kilo]

Yep. The AUMF was presented as a tool to force compliance with inspections. Despite compliance, GWB invaded anyway. He never intended otherwise.

It was a perfectly timed gun to the heads of Dem politicians following a masterful propaganda campaign of fear mongering and blood lust.

9/11 quickly became a bludgeon against all enemies, foreign & domestic.

What people don't realize is the whole political context of that vote. Democrats got burned voting against his Dad's successful (on the surface) foray into Iraq (Desert Storm). Some of them did not get elected because of that vote. There were a lot of Dems that voted for the Iraq war with that looming in the background. Oh my god, political expediency, they never do that.