DRM 'Worst Thing' In Video Game Industry

Elixer

Lifer
May 7, 2002
10,371
762
126
They pretty much nailed it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...-only-drm-worst-thing-in-video-game-industry/

“In my opinion,” Tomaszkiewicz tells me, “DRM is the worst thing in the gaming industry. It’s limiting our rights to play games owned by us. Let’s imagine that you have a game that requires internet connection to prove that you actually bought it. What if you lose your connection because of your internet provider? You can’t play anymore. It is worth mentioning that many people in Poland or even in the US and other countries still don’t have an internet connection or have a very slow one. I was in such a situation once and I really didn’t understand why I couldn’t play games that I had bought. I believe that as long as people feel that companies are cheating them by selling games they cannot play freely, limiting their rights, and making unfair DRM, then they will fight against that.”

I wonder, does this mean that they won't distribute this on steam, since steam is DRM ?
 

KaOTiK

Lifer
Feb 5, 2001
10,877
8
81
They pretty much nailed it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...-only-drm-worst-thing-in-video-game-industry/



I wonder, does this mean that they won't distribute this on steam, since steam is DRM ?

They will sell it on Steam, just won't use Steamworks.
While Steam is DRM, it is for many people an acceptable tradeoff for what you get for using it, more so when you consider the price you probably paid for a game picking it up on sale from Steam as well.

CDP guys have always been pretty anti DRM and it is nice to see. They make great games and they sell well. They put DRM in The Witcher 2 and removed it after the first 2 weeks, it was more of a piracy counter measure for the initial release then anything else and they apologized for even doing that.
 

Dankk

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2008
5,558
25
91
I wonder, does this mean that they won't distribute this on steam, since steam is DRM ?

The Witcher 3 will be on Steam, just like every other Witcher game. However, they will also offer a DRM-free version on GoG.com.

As a developer, you have to please customers who prefer Steam, or you have to please those who enjoy DRM-free. CDP Red is doing both.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
It's good to see them stand by their cause. I've actually never played either Witcher game, but I admire their stance on things.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
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I see nothing wrong with DRM, as long as it is not intrusive.

Always on is intrusive, steam is not intrusive. The always on requirement is the reason why I will not buy diablo iii.

While steam may be DRM, it also offers a lot of other features.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
As the above poster stated, DRM itself is not necessarily bad. We all love (I think) steamworks, but that is DRM.

The critical difference is the intrusiveness and hassle factor involved. Valve has made DRM that is convenient and hassle free; this is why many publishers are using steamworks as their DRM of choice. Because customers do not mind it for the most part - but when you get into gamebreaking bugs, servers being down, continual login requirements, that is when DRM becomes annoying.

There are a wide range of DRM types, I think some differentiation should be made here. You can't put GOOD DRM (steamworks) in the same category as garbage such as SecuROM (installation limits, 5 installs per lifetime) or GFWL (extremely buggy and annoying to use!)
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,003
126
As the above poster stated, DRM itself is not necessarily bad. We all love (I think) steamworks, but that is DRM.
I definitely disagree there. I personally dislike Steam and I've had more problems with it than any other form of DRM, ranging from broken offline mode to ignoring my auto-patching and cloud settings (i.e. turn it off but it still does it). Not to mention that their "customer support" is as bad as EA's.

The only reason this crap was initially accepted was because it was tied to Half-Life 2, a game everyone wanted. Now people have just become numb to it. Is it any wonder EA pulled the same stunt with Origin/BF3?

Not to mention that no matter how unobtrusive it is, you're still essentially renting software and you don't actually own anything. Valve can remove your games at any time, as witnessed by the Orange Box fiasco where legitimate purchases were retroactively disabled, in some cases months after their purchase.

CD Projekt RED has it right, and their GoG.com is the only example of digital distribution done right. Among other things, with GoG you actually own your games, unlike other online distribution (including Steam) where you just rent them.

I always give props to GoG.com whenever possible because of their fantastic consumer-friendly service and policies. Heck, they even fix games before releasing them to make sure customers can actually run them. Contrast this to Steam releasing games in the past that didn't even run on modern OSes.
 

Zenoth

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2005
5,202
216
106
I usually don't mind some DRM, but as blackened23 said it depends on its intrusiveness (or as I like to say its "aggressiveness"). One type of DRM I don't like is always-on for single-player part(s) of a game specifically. The "best" (or worst) example that comes to mind right away is Diablo III. If there's a server issue, or merely a maintenance you can't play single-player anyway, since you need their server to play, which is of course stupid. I mean it's technically explainable that is, on paper, it makes "sense" (I.E. of course if all the data needed to play is server-side then you're going to need said server to play said game, regardless of you or me liking that fact or not, which is the part that is purely "on paper"). The problem is... it's a stupid concept nonetheless.

I'm trying to picture that in my mind, a meeting of Blizzard employees during the development of D3 at a round table discussing what to do with single-player, and one or more of the guys raise their hand and say "hey, what about single-player requiring our servers too just like multi-player?", they all look at each others in silence, and suddenly breaking the silence one guy hesitantly replies "that's... actually a good idea!". I can't fathom the cognitive "decision-making" process in those guys' mind. But hell... what the heck, it happened anyway. So we the gamers probably don't know what's "good" for us, or rather what's good for them (would it be good for them at all to start with anyhow?). And so we, the gamers, just have the shut the hell up about it, or else. We wanted D3? Well we got it. And it's from our benevolent Blizzard benefactors of all people, we should be happy 'cause they have wings on their back and a halo on their head too.

So yeah I don't like it when always-on DRM spits on single-player, but I actually understand it - and even agree with it - when it comes to multi-player. The same happens with CD-Keys, that's fine by me, for both single-player and multi-player (and I'm not saying that CD-Keys is "enough" or efficient as protection per se, but just saying that I don't mind it at all, regardless of efficiency or lack thereof). Now of course, about Steam, we need it for our Steam games, it's DRM, but again Steam is convenient and almost completely hassle-free. But while I do not have issues with Steam as the platform and application that it is on paper I wouldn't exactly want to rely on too many of such distribution platforms to scatter my digital games library in.

I'd be happy with "just" Steam as my choice, so for example EA making Mass Effect 3 Origin-exclusive pissed me off. It's their right, sure, I'm not debating that. But as a consumer it pissed me off. I still went and bought ME3 anyway and didn't start some sort of petition or never attempted to boycott Origin because of that. I have this tendency of "Utopianizing" (just made this one up, good exercise, try not to twist your tongue on it though) thanks to my "natural naivety", so I like to tell myself something along the lines of "Why is it that EA and Valve just couldn't get along so that ME3 and BF3 gets on Steam just as much as Half-Life, TF2 and Counter-Strike games end up on Origin?". See? Then all you'd need to actually do would simply and merely end up choosing which platform you happen to prefer as a way to store your digital games, period. Simple huh? But, of course, business as usual and "sense" prevents stuff like that from happening. So to help the cause let's add another distribution platform to the market called Origin "because we can" and "because someone else than us is successful at it so let's try to prove that we can do it too, 'cause we're a business too, right?".

But with this said, if something happens to the Steam servers I can still launch it in off-line mode and play the games I own which themselves happen to have single-player modes that don't require an Internet connection at all (and I got plenty of those on Steam). I don't know of many other DRM methods that would allow the "owner" of his/her own games to still be able to play them at all if anything happens to the game pre-launch's identification processes from said DRM. In other words, as I said, Steam is DRM, but if servers at Valve go kaput for 24 hours I can still launch Steam and play many of my games off-line, when in fact just launching Steam itself is a form of identification process since you're log-in into your account, obviously.

Sooo... hmmm, yeah, DRM, what a subject it is.

Oh, I'd like to say this regarding CD Projekt RED. First thing first, I respect those guys very much and wish them all the success they can get (and already got by now, but let's wish them more anyway). Now, the thing is they happen to be successful, but they aren't successful because of their stance on DRM, they are because they made good games (or at worst, good "enough", to be successful "enough"). I firmly believe that The Witcher 2's actual game quality has nothing to do with the fact that there's virtually no DRM in it. Is there DRM for... say... ME3? Yeah (yeah, I.E. "Origin", as much of DRM as Steam itself is), well it sold like hotcakes anyway (or rather I should say like pancakes).

My point is, it's easy for CDPR to have this stance in the industry. You could argue it's not (well I wouldn't 'cause I think it's easy for them), but I'm willing to bet that it was a really huge gamble on their part to have this mentality and apply it for all their games. The pirates won't care if the guys have passion for their work and put their heart, soul and late night sugar-filled coffees at work for their projects, those pirates will still crack, and oh boy was The Witcher 2 pirated. I even believe that removing almost all (if not literally all) DRM from a game simply facilitates piracy. When a game has no DRM and is single-player... you basically ask for it. But despite the risks and lost sales, they still managed, why? Because the game(s) they made are good, that's why. Well, I do put both original Witcher and Witcher 2 in there, some would just point at Witcher 2 as the company's "real first big success", but whatever, ultimately right now CDPR is a big name in the industry which is the point (I.E. point being it's easy for them to adopt this anti-DRM stance).

Now let's say you're an Indie dev and you can't launch your game on Steam for some reason, do you try to put a minimum amount of DRM in your game then? Or do you decide not to, obviously to save money by not doing so at all, and then risking your game getting pirated? Or do you tell yourself that because you're Indie that no one will "bother" pirating your small budget game and that things like that only "happens to others"? I don't think there's any limits in the mind of a pirate who doesn't have enough cash to buy himself a daily meal (but of course has enough to own his actual gaming computer or laptop, obviously). Sure you can be anti-DRM and it's all cool and dandy (don't think this is too much sarcasm though, I actually like their stance and agree with it) but it seems to be meaningful when it comes from a big-enough name in the industry. They probably got enough money now to allow themselves the risks of not having DRM and then coming out and saying "see? it worked, and we're against DRM, this means DRM isn't a good thing and in fact is the worst thing in the gaming industry".

Well, to be completely honest I don't think that even the worst DRM actually is - literally - "the worst thing in the video gaming industry". I think that what's even worse than that in the gaming industry is really bad story-telling (sometimes bad enough as to destroying your perception of a virtual universe after five years of immersion), or cockroach-level of A.I. intelligence (or rather stupidity), or photo-realistic levels of graphics for tech-demo-style games that cry for other memorable (but absent) content, or poorly planned/communicated/organized development and/or too outsourced games in the veins of Colonial Marines, or bad-enough voice acting that gives your shudders in your back (think Diablo III female monk's VA) ... or... do I need to continue?

There's worse, much worse in the gaming industry, within the games themselves, other than DRM per se, in my opinion. So much worse in fact that it arguably contributes to the current state of the industry tenfold above and beyond that of the worst DRM scenario you can think of.
 
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ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
I felt the opposite. I have no intentions of buying anything on Origin for various reasons, the biggest being that EA has a notorious history of not giving a crap about their customers. Why would I want them to control my purchases?

While Steam isn't perfect, it works for millions of people. If the games weren't so cheap, I'd probably skip it as well though. GoG is the only one that has it right at the moment, but of course they won't get everything because of how they do it.
 

Sleepingforest

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 2012
2,375
0
76
I think what's worse is that big people like EA and Ubisoft feel that they can dictate what gamers are and aren't ready for, in terms of DRM. I mean, it still gets them sales, but honestly, silence is only consent if you're trying to win parliamentary debate.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,003
126
GoG is the only one that has it right at the moment, but of course they won't get everything because of how they do it.
We as the consumer can vote with our wallets by purchasing from GoG instead of elsewhere whenever possible. If DRM-free units sell well then more games will come.

We have the opportunity to show publishers that PC gamers aren't just a bunch of free-loading pirates.
 
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ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,977
4
0
DRM was invented to prevent piracy. However, it has yet to accomplish the goal. The only people who are inconvenienced are those who buy the games legitimately. DRM is absolutely asinine.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
We as the consumer can vote with our wallets by purchasing from GoG instead of elsewhere whenever possible. If DRM-free units sell well then more games will come.

We have the opportunity to show publishers that PC gamers aren't just a bunch of free-loading pirates.

There are so many publishers using steamworks as the primary DRM? Just out of curiosity, how are you playing the latest titles? Not trying to be facetious, but many publishers are using steamworks for their AAA titles, so you'd be missing out on a lot of good titles. Borderlands 2, DE:HR, I could name a hundred more. You're missing out on a lot of titles if you exclude steam :) (I get the impression that you try to avoid steam games, just curious)

Steam now isn't like steam 7 years ago. They improved it substantially. That's why I love valve - they take feedback and improve their products based on it; In the past 2 years I have not had a single issue, ever - it really is the best DRM out there, IMHO. You can also play offline easily - in fact, aside from downloads i'm NEVER online with steam. I play everything offline and have for a couple of years.
 
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blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
DRM was invented to prevent piracy. However, it has yet to accomplish the goal. The only people who are inconvenienced are those who buy the games legitimately. DRM is absolutely asinine.

Well it really isn't going away. So in the meantime we have to use DRM that is non-intrusive, and I really feel steamworks is that DRM.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,977
4
0
I am entirely happy with Steam. In fact, other than a gift recently, I can't remember the last time I bought a game outside of Steam. I wouldn't say that I'm a total fanboy, but I have so few negative things to say about it and so many, many positive things that I probably qualify as one :p
 

KaOTiK

Lifer
Feb 5, 2001
10,877
8
81
I definitely disagree there. I personally dislike Steam and I've had more problems with it than any other form of DRM, ranging from broken offline mode to ignoring my auto-patching and cloud settings (i.e. turn it off but it still does it). Not to mention that their "customer support" is as bad as EA's.

The only reason this crap was initially accepted was because it was tied to Half-Life 2, a game everyone wanted. Now people have just become numb to it. Is it any wonder EA pulled the same stunt with Origin/BF3?

Not to mention that no matter how unobtrusive it is, you're still essentially renting software and you don't actually own anything. Valve can remove your games at any time, as witnessed by the Orange Box fiasco where legitimate purchases were retroactively disabled, in some cases months after their purchase.

CD Projekt RED has it right, and their GoG.com is the only example of digital distribution done right. Among other things, with GoG you actually own your games, unlike other online distribution (including Steam) where you just rent them.

I always give props to GoG.com whenever possible because of their fantastic consumer-friendly service and policies. Heck, they even fix games before releasing them to make sure customers can actually run them. Contrast this to Steam releasing games in the past that didn't even run on modern OSes.

In all fairness, the Orange Box fiasco was because people were circumventing regional pricing. Those keys were to be sold only in their respective region as are most keys that are massively marked down next to the rest of the world (namely from Russia area). So they checked who activated xxx region key and checked it to where it was actually activated and removed it from said accounts.

EA's Origin customer service is actually for the most part pretty good, you actually talk to someone pretty quickly. Valves CS is slow as hell and is the biggest complaint people have about Steam.

GOG is the best out there as far as implementation goes, but a lot of people are willing to deal with Steam because to a lot the benefits are worth it.
 

thetechfreak

Member
Jun 11, 2012
75
9
71
Even more problematic was when I activated a key of Hitman Sniper Challenge and it turned out it was a regional key(I got a popup saying the same after downloading the same and there was no way to stop the half downloaded game)

I asked Valve CC to remove it from my account. They replied a week later and said something completely different and I again replied them with a one sentence(all caps because they didn't seem to understand)

5 or 6 friends who purchased Dirt 3 were never able to play with me as they always had problems with GFWL. Then again whenever GFWL gets updated, updating it successfully is harder than finishing the later Super Meat Boy worlds without dying even once.

IMO DRM does nothing than piss of legitimate game buyers.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
6
81
There are so many publishers using steamworks as the primary DRM? Just out of curiosity, how are you playing the latest titles? Not trying to be facetious, but many publishers are using steamworks for their AAA titles, so you'd be missing out on a lot of good titles. Borderlands 2, DE:HR, I could name a hundred more. You're missing out on a lot of titles if you exclude steam :) (I get the impression that you try to avoid steam games, just curious)

Steam now isn't like steam 7 years ago. They improved it substantially. That's why I love valve - they take feedback and improve their products based on it; In the past 2 years I have not had a single issue, ever - it really is the best DRM out there, IMHO. You can also play offline easily - in fact, aside from downloads i'm NEVER online with steam. I play everything offline and have for a couple of years.

I play the latest games by pirating them, if they require Steamworks, or buying them if they don't.
But most of the games I've bought recently have been from GoG.com, so I have around 100 GoG.com games.

If it's an online only game, online-only DRM makes sense, so I have no problem with BF3, since in my mind it's online only. But if it's a SP game, why does it require the internet for its DRM?

Ive also been playing mostly F2P or online only games, but none of which require Steam.

If I take one recent example of where DRM is a problem. I acquired Bioshock Infinite. Playing it for 30 minutes made me feel sick (like Mirror's Edge did), so I cannot comfortably play it.
What do I do with my Steamworks DRM game Bioshock Infinite? I would have to ask for a refund, and hope someone might give me one. Except lets say I bought it from Amazon.co.uk, because it's significantly cheaper than Steam, and Amazon won't give me a refund because it's a Steamworks game.

So now I'm stuck with a game I can't play, because it makes me ill, with no way to get my money back, and I can't even give it away because it's tied to my Steam account.
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
Steam still restricts a persons rights with the product. You can't lend the game to someone else, resell it, give it away etc etc. it ties a game inexplicably to a particular individual and account forever more. I have plenty of games that I would like to loan out but can't because of Steam's intrusive and obstructive DRM enforcing their version of how media should be licensed and not bought and owned. I just don't think this vision of ownership meets the expectation of the grand majority of the customers.

We need to be able to refund games that are broken by design (Sim City etc) and we also need second hand sales and a host of other normal product/good rights. Until that is implemented DRM is going to be too restrictive.

Given the choice I buy games that are not tied to any DRM at all, I'll choose Steam in preference to Origin because EA has a habit of taking away customer accounts but always online DRM in any game has me avoid it completely. I haven't bought always online DRMed games for a very long time, I have never had good experiences with it, it always goes wrong.

DRM is bad for all of us, its a blight of our industry. A war against the customers who buy and use their products can never be won, only lost.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
DRM is the second-worse thing in the video game industry.

The worst thing is all the thieves who make companies want to implement DRM in the first place.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
I play the latest games by pirating them, if they require Steamworks, or buying them if they don't.
But most of the games I've bought recently have been from GoG.com, so I have around 100 GoG.com games.

If it's an online only game, online-only DRM makes sense, so I have no problem with BF3, since in my mind it's online only. But if it's a SP game, why does it require the internet for its DRM?

Ive also been playing mostly F2P or online only games, but none of which require Steam.

If I take one recent example of where DRM is a problem. I acquired Bioshock Infinite. Playing it for 30 minutes made me feel sick (like Mirror's Edge did), so I cannot comfortably play it.
What do I do with my Steamworks DRM game Bioshock Infinite? I would have to ask for a refund, and hope someone might give me one. Except lets say I bought it from Amazon.co.uk, because it's significantly cheaper than Steam, and Amazon won't give me a refund because it's a Steamworks game.

So now I'm stuck with a game I can't play, because it makes me ill, with no way to get my money back, and I can't even give it away because it's tied to my Steam account.

First of all, your admission to piracy makes me sick. On other forums, this would result in your ban. Secondly, what kind of freaking alternate reality do you live in where game refunds are possible? There is no retailer that has offered refunds on open software in the states since the late 90s. Even then, the only retailer that offered it in my state was EB and NOBODY else. Keep in mind, this was like 2 decades ago, prior to internet piracy and torrents becoming so large. Piracy existed then, but to a much smaller scale. And still nobody offered refunds on used software Maybe you're a relic of the past or something, if you expect refunds on games you dont like maybe you're just involved in the wrong hobby. There is no retailer that offers refunds on used software, your assertion is just hilarious.

On top of this, there is the obvious fact that you can find tons of reviews on launch day. So you have plenty of time to digest youtube videos and reviews to make a purchasing decision. Of course, you're little better than the scum who do nothing but pirate, so despite the fact that there are 20 gabillion reviews out for every game on launch day, you've picked which side you're on. You just like pirating software and grasping at straws for reasons to defend it. Such as no game refunds, the silliest reason i've EVER read. *I guess it's a good time to update my ignore list
 
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Tweak155

Lifer
Sep 23, 2003
11,449
264
126
I'd say piracy is. Without piracy we wouldn't have companies trying to create DRM.
 

lagokc

Senior member
Mar 27, 2013
808
1
41
First of all, your admission to piracy makes me sick. On other forums, this would result in your ban. Secondly, what kind of freaking alternate reality do you live in where game refunds are possible? There is no retailer that has offered refunds on open software in the states since the late 90s. Even then, the only retailer that offered it in my state was EB and NOBODY else. Keep in mind, this was like 2 decades ago, prior to internet piracy and torrents becoming so large. Piracy existed then, but to a much smaller scale. And still nobody offered refunds on used software Maybe you're a relic of the past or something, if you expect refunds on games you dont like maybe you're just involved in the wrong hobby. There is no retailer that offers refunds on used software, your assertion is just hilarious.

On top of this, there is the obvious fact that you can find tons of reviews on launch day. So you have plenty of time to digest youtube videos and reviews to make a purchasing decision. Of course, you're little better than the scum who do nothing but pirate, so despite the fact that there are 20 gabillion reviews out for every game on launch day, you've picked which side you're on. You just like pirating software and grasping at straws for reasons to defend it. Such as no game refunds, the silliest reason i've EVER read. *I guess it's a good time to update my ignore list

Steam's no refund policy also extends to defective games. If a game is completely broken and will not run they still keep your money. I've never seen a retailer do that.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
Steam's no refund policy also extends to defective games. If a game is completely broken and will not run they still keep your money. I've never seen a retailer do that.

The definition of "defective" is highly suspect and vague. Anyone claiming that software is defective is probably trying to lie their way to a refund. On top of this, no retailers will refund based on this - they will direct you to the producer of said software. Retailers do not refund based on your belief of a product being "defective", in fact their sales policies explicitly state no refunds period no exceptions. You can see it in bold print at every B+M retailers such as best buy, target, etc. NO REFUNDS ON SOFTWARE OPENED. Again, no retailer has ever had an open refund policy on used software and it has been this way for decades in the states.

This is also sidestepping the fact that only scum would ever pirate software based on such a logical fallacy. You are not entitled to own a product that you do not pay for. If there's a product which I feel may have issues, I vote with my wallet. I don't buy it - I don't go out and pirate it. People who pirate based on this logical assumption that they're entitled to entertainment without paying for it, as mentioned, are scum. Anyway on the refund issue - If you have an issue, refer to the produer of the software and inquire with them for a refund or a fix. This is what B+M retailers, at least the ones that I frequent (such as Best Buy, target) do. They have bold print stating no refunds, no exceptions, and have had this for decades.
 
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