DREAM Act Backers Still Dreaming

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: loki8481
but none of that has anything to do with the dream act, which is pretty narrow in scope (it only applies to people who were brought into this country before the age of 16, are currently under the age of 30, and only if they complete 2 years of college or military service)

The problem with DREAM is that it rewards illegal behavior. That's unacceptable.

it's not the kids faults that their parents brought them here illegally, though... why should they be punished if they've spent their entire lives living within the bounds of the law?

 

[rpanic]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: loki8481
but none of that has anything to do with the dream act, which is pretty narrow in scope (it only applies to people who were brought into this country before the age of 16, are currently under the age of 30, and only if they complete 2 years of college or military service)

The problem with DREAM is that it rewards illegal behavior. That's unacceptable.

it's not the kids faults that their parents brought them here illegally, though... why should they be punished if they've spent their entire lives living within the bounds of the law?

Your right it?s the parents fault let them deal with the problem they have to live with now.

 

[rpanic]

The Dream Act sounds like a nightmare to me, it will just cause more illegals to cross, knowing that the US will cave and let each generation of illegals have a free pass to the head of the line.

They can go back to where they came from with the free education they received here and should be ahead of everyone in there country of origin. If they want to come back they can do it legally.

This is at the end of the dream act.
The 6-year time period for meeting these requirements would be extendable upon a showing of good cause, and the Dept. of Homeland Security would be empowered to waive the requirements altogether if compelling reasons such as disability prevented their completion and if removal of the student would result in exceptional and extremely unusual hardship to the student, or to the student's spouse, parent or child.

What?s an "extremely unusual hardship, exceptional and extremely unusual hardship to the student or to the student's spouse, parent or child"? Will getting shipped back cause this, if so I guess they don't have to worry about any requirements anyways?

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: rpanic
The Dream Act sounds like a nightmare to me, it will just cause more illegals to cross, knowing that the US will cave and let each generation of illegals have a free pass to the head of the line.

QFT.

They can go back to where they came from with the free education they received here and should be ahead of everyone in there country of origin. If they want to come back they can do it legally.

That is the kind of thinking we need.

 

[theeedude]

DREAM act wouldn't change anything. These people are already here and they aren't going anywhere. It'll simply let them come out of the shadows and give them opportunities to become more productive citizens by going to college, working and paying taxes.

 

[blackangst1]

Loki and Right:

1. you dont support non citizens voting. check.
2. you believe a background check should be performed. check.
3. you support a green card to those who have had children within the USA as long as they go through the same requirements. check.

So you support our immigration policy as it stands.

Good for you two.

 

[PieIsAwesome]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: loki8481
but none of that has anything to do with the dream act, which is pretty narrow in scope (it only applies to people who were brought into this country before the age of 16, are currently under the age of 30, and only if they complete 2 years of college or military service)

The problem with DREAM is that it rewards illegal behavior. That's unacceptable.

The kids who are supposed to benefit from it were brought here. They didn't commit any illegal behavior. Why should they be treated as if they did?

And if you argue that they did commit illegal behavior, then what was it?

There are other points being made in opposition to the DREAM act that I can agree with, but saying that these kids committed "illegal behavior" is not one of them.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: PieIsAwesome
There are other points being made in opposition to the DREAM act that I can agree with, but saying that these kids committed "illegal behavior" is not one of them.

The fallacy of your argument is the same as the Dems pathetic "it's the kids" argument with S-CHIP. Quit using kids as political tokens.

If it makes you feel better to say the PARENTS are criminals, so be it. It really doesn't matter. We cannot be rewarding illegal behavior, and there's no reason to put anybody ahead in the waiting line - particularly those who chose to NOT play by the rules to begin with.

 

[Jhhnn]

We shouldn't be having a discussion about amnesty and drivers' licenses for these law breakers

Prohibition got repealed, Nixon got pardoned, Libby's sentence was commuted (ultimately pardoned, I'm sure), along with a host of Reagan era miscreants wrt Iran-Contra...

This "Lawbreakers!" argument is a sham coming from anybody who supports the Bush action wrt Libby, or anybody who supports the Bush Admin at all- the extent of their lawbreaking will only be known after they're out of office...

The current system doesn't work, and it really doesn't matter why- it doesn't work, period. The only way to implement real controls on immigration is to institute a system that accomodates more immigrants, or one that truly prohibits them from working- something that privacy advocates and "small government" ravers really don't want....

The notion that we should deport the 12-15 million illegal immigrants who generally contribute and live peaceably here simply because they're "illegal" is an absurdity, and would probably cause more harm than good in ways that nobody has even imagined...

As we're seeing in a variety of situations, rightwing raving usually ignores the whole concept of unintended consequences- this whole rant about illegals being no different.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

We shouldn't be having a discussion about amnesty and drivers' licenses for these law breakers.

yes we should... 😱

So let me ask you. What would YOU say when someone who has gone through the legal process of immigrating when they tell you their story of immigration, all the while you just grant amnesty, green cards, and drivers licenses to illegals? How do you answer them? I'm sorry, that was then this is now?

What do you do about our current visa programs? Just toss em? If you can get here, we'll give you a green card? What requirements would you make for entry into the USA, getting a license, and getting a green card? That they are breathing?

You're OK with letting non citizens VOTE?

You're OK with disolving our airport security?

I bet you wont even have an answer for these.

I don't think that we should just open the floodgates.

I think that we do need increased border security on both our borders, not just the one with brown people on the other side.

but I also think that after the above things are taken care of, we need some sensible immigration reform and an acknowledgment of the fact that they're here and a mass overnight deportation would be devastating to our economy... if someone's been here for X number of years, has been a productive member of american society, and has been living within the law (except, you know, the whole illegal immigrant thing), I do think that we should be willing to give them a chance and open up a path to citizenship for them.

and in the case of people who didn't come into this country illegally voluntarily, why shouldn't we do our best to integrate them into being upstanding members of society and encouraging them to join the military or go to college as a pre-requisite for legalized status? the dream act isn't about amnesty for every Tomas, Juan, and Geraldo.

Thanks for avoiding my questions and giving the standard cookie cutter response. You really have put some thought into this!

Thanks for avoiding my answers and giving the standard cookie cutter troll. You really have put some thought into this! 🙂

LOL OK let me ask in sifferent words.

Legal immigrants are requires to not only go through an FBI background check, but also must provide proof from their home country they have not commited felonies. Would you support this requirement for illegals?

With a driver's license, you can register to vote. Do you support a non-citizen the right to vote?

Heres a perfect example of the right wing spin machine doing its job. Yes, you can register to vote with just a license. But you can't vote! Only citizens can vote. Registering to vote does not mean voting! They are separate things.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

We shouldn't be having a discussion about amnesty and drivers' licenses for these law breakers.

yes we should... 😱

So let me ask you. What would YOU say when someone who has gone through the legal process of immigrating when they tell you their story of immigration, all the while you just grant amnesty, green cards, and drivers licenses to illegals? How do you answer them? I'm sorry, that was then this is now?

What do you do about our current visa programs? Just toss em? If you can get here, we'll give you a green card? What requirements would you make for entry into the USA, getting a license, and getting a green card? That they are breathing?

You're OK with letting non citizens VOTE?

You're OK with disolving our airport security?

I bet you wont even have an answer for these.

I don't think that we should just open the floodgates.

I think that we do need increased border security on both our borders, not just the one with brown people on the other side.

but I also think that after the above things are taken care of, we need some sensible immigration reform and an acknowledgment of the fact that they're here and a mass overnight deportation would be devastating to our economy... if someone's been here for X number of years, has been a productive member of american society, and has been living within the law (except, you know, the whole illegal immigrant thing), I do think that we should be willing to give them a chance and open up a path to citizenship for them.

and in the case of people who didn't come into this country illegally voluntarily, why shouldn't we do our best to integrate them into being upstanding members of society and encouraging them to join the military or go to college as a pre-requisite for legalized status? the dream act isn't about amnesty for every Tomas, Juan, and Geraldo.

Thanks for avoiding my questions and giving the standard cookie cutter response. You really have put some thought into this!

Thanks for avoiding my answers and giving the standard cookie cutter troll. You really have put some thought into this! 🙂

LOL OK let me ask in sifferent words.

Legal immigrants are requires to not only go through an FBI background check, but also must provide proof from their home country they have not commited felonies. Would you support this requirement for illegals?

With a driver's license, you can register to vote. Do you support a non-citizen the right to vote?

Heres a perfect example of the right wing spin machine doing its job. Yes, you can register to vote with just a license. But you can't vote! Only citizens can vote. Registering to vote does not mean voting! They are separate things.

And this is the typical stupidity and lack of common sense in the Democrats.

An illegal is registered to vote.
An illegal goes to the polling station and shows their new shiny DL as ID.
An illegal enters the building.
An illegal enters a polling booth.
An illegal votes.

Now tell me where I was wrong again?

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
And this is the typical stupidity and lack of common sense in the Democrats.

An illegal is registered to vote.
An illegal goes to the polling station and shows their new shiny DL as ID.
An illegal enters the building.
An illegal enters a polling booth.
An illegal votes.

Now tell me where I was wrong again?

Here, they wouldn't even need to show a DL. Or any other ID. So long as they're registered, and their name is on "the list", they'll be ushered right to a polling station to vote. No questions asked.

 

[Jhhnn]

Back to shilling the "Voter Fraud" fantasy, I see.

All those contentions and scenarios apply to legal immigrants, as well- maybe we should just keep everybody out because of that possibility, the possibility that can't be substantiated in any meaningful way...

 

[Moonbeam]

The wonderful thing about being a fanatical idiot is that life is simple black and white and the fanatic is clear about everything.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Back to shilling the "Voter Fraud" fantasy, I see.

Nice to see you so concerned with the integrity of our election system. Your tone sure has changed.

Incidentally, Spitzer is trying some new spin to get his big idea off the ground.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The notion that we should deport the 12-15 million illegal immigrants who generally contribute and live peaceably here simply because they're "illegal" is an absurdity, and would probably cause more harm than good in ways that nobody has even imagined...

As we're seeing in a variety of situations, rightwing raving usually ignores the whole concept of unintended consequences- this whole rant about illegals being no different.

How are you so certain that the illegals make a positive contribution to our nation and to the quality of life of American citizens?

Are you saying that the illegals contribute more in tax dollars than they consume in emergency room health care, education costs, and criminal justice and prison costs? How do you account for the costs inflicted on Americans who are unemployed or underemployed as a result of the illegals' invasion (such as the guy who would otherwise earn a middle class living working in the construction field)? How do you account for the population explosion costs--such as less open space, increased strain on freshwater sources, increased real estate costs ("they ain't makin' land anymore"), increased traffic congestion, etc.?

Can you tell us why you think the negative unintended consequences of deporting the illegals would outweigh the myriad benefits?

 

[babylon5]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The notion that we should deport the 12-15 million illegal immigrants who generally contribute and live peaceably here simply because they're "illegal" is an absurdity, and would probably cause more harm than good in ways that nobody has even imagined...

As we're seeing in a variety of situations, rightwing raving usually ignores the whole concept of unintended consequences- this whole rant about illegals being no different.

How are you so certain that the illegals make a positive contribution to our nation and to the quality of life of American citizens?

Are you saying that the illegals contribute more in tax dollars than they consume in emergency room health care, education costs, and criminal justice and prison costs? How do you account for the costs inflicted on Americans who are unemployed or underemployed as a result of the illegals' invasion (such as the guy who would otherwise earn a middle class living working in the construction field)? How do you account for the population explosion costs--such as less open space, increased strain on freshwater sources, increased real estate costs ("they ain't makin' land anymore"), increased traffic congestion, etc.?

Can you tell us why you think the negative unintended consequences of deporting the illegals would outweigh the myriad benefits?

Can any Pro-Illegals name any OTHER countries in the WORLD that have benefit from uncontrolled Illegal Immigration?

Pro-Illegals enjoy blasting USA for having this "absurd" idea call enforcing the control of a border, how dare they! There is a reason why nations in the world don't let anyone come in anytime they want to be part of the country, whether it's USA, Mexico, Japan, Thailand, Argentina. Pro-Illegals have this strange idea that that a nation can sustain drastic population growth by absorbing low wage unskilled work force indefinitely. And Pro-Illegals like you to believe only USA wont' allow it, but the rest of the world has seen the light, and Illegal Immigration goes on all the time! That is the kind of propaganda fantasy Pro-Illegals want you to believe.

Pro-Illegals dont' want to mention overcrowded school, hospital with unpaid bills, MS13 and all the "generally peaceful"South American gangs, drugs flowing into USA as result of open US border.
Pro Illegals rather focus on a fantastical positive, ignore the reality of impact by Illegals.

Most pro-Illegals live in a fantasy lala land.

 

[Jhhnn]

From WhipperSnapper-

Can you tell us why you think the negative unintended consequences of deporting the illegals would outweigh the myriad benefits?

Well, for starters, this whole concept of smaller, less intrusive govt so favored by the rightwing would have to go straight down the porcelain bowl, as would our current fractured system of identification and employment qualification...

And you mischaracterize my pov- I'm not pro illegal, at all, but I am pro- increased immigration, and pro-amnesty for those already here and working. If they were legal, then much of the problem with their presence would be negated. Hey, they could even organize, demand decent wages, which would be good for anybody who actually works... bad for those who currently favor employing illegals, which is most of corporate america- but, hey, they'll find a way to live with it, I'm sure....

And, uhh, let's face it, current ravers about illegal immigrants are the people who usually can't see *to* the end of their noses, much less look beyond it. So, be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it, and it won't be what you expected, at all...

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From WhipperSnapper-

Can you tell us why you think the negative unintended consequences of deporting the illegals would outweigh the myriad benefits?

Well, for starters, this whole concept of smaller, less intrusive govt so favored by the rightwing would have to go straight down the porcelain bowl, as would our current fractured system of identification and employment qualification...

And you mischaracterize my pov- I'm not pro illegal, at all, but I am pro- increased immigration, and pro-amnesty for those already here and working. If they were legal, then much of the problem with their presence would be negated. Hey, they could even organize, demand decent wages, which would be good for anybody who actually works... bad for those who currently favor employing illegals, which is most of corporate america- but, hey, they'll find a way to live with it, I'm sure....

And, uhh, let's face it, current ravers about illegal immigrants are the people who usually can't see *to* the end of their noses, much less look beyond it. So, be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it, and it won't be what you expected, at all...

The only problem with your argument, regarding amnesty touches on a touchy subject: the criminal element. By granting amnesty, how do we know who we're granting green cards to? Im not implying a large percentage of illegals are murders, rapists, thugs, or child molesters...but some are. Would you be comfortable living next to a family of illegals who has never been given a background check? We assume they come here for economic reasons...very foolish assumtion. I, myself, wouldnt want to.

Thats the biggest danger with amnesty. We have no friggin clue who they are or why they came here. And we should.

 

[rpanic]

How can anyone even talk of amnesty we tried it once and it turned out to be a complete failure and just made the problem far worse. I could see people arguing for it if it had never been tried but it has, why repeat failures.

Amnesty is like feeding the bears at the park.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: rpanic
How can anyone even talk of amnesty we tried it once and it turned out to be a complete failure and just made the problem far worse. I could see people arguing for it if it had never been tried but it has, why repeat failures.

Amnesty is like feeding the bears at the park.

Because theyre peeeeeooooppllleeeee and they have feeeeeelllingsssss too.