DREAM Act Backers Still Dreaming

[Pabster]

Story here.

It appears the "toxicity" of the immigration debate has really started to rub off. Even some of the most ardent supporters of DREAM-style legislation are jumping ship. Must be an election coming up in the not-so-distant future...

Now my question is...who is going to actually stop this insanity? We shouldn't be having a discussion about amnesty and drivers' licenses for these law breakers. The only candidate who appears to be willing to even discuss it is Fred Thompson.

 

[nageov3t]

We shouldn't be having a discussion about amnesty and drivers' licenses for these law breakers.

yes we should... 😱

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: loki8481
yes we should... 😱

No, we shouldn't. The laws should be enforced. There should be no debate.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: loki8481
yes we should... 😱

No, we shouldn't. The laws should be enforced. There should be no debate.

Can't we have a debate about CHANGING the law? By your logic, we're stuck with every single law we've ever passed, because "the laws should be enforced. There should be no debate."

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: loki8481
yes we should... 😱

No, we shouldn't. The laws should be enforced. There should be no debate.

Can't we have a debate about CHANGING the law? By your logic, we're stuck with every single law we've ever passed, because "the laws should be enforced. There should be no debate."

The debate is pretty clear americans are not for changing the laws, they are for enforcing the laws.

 

[Lemon law]

Illegal immigration is and remains a huge problem. And at least for seasonal labor, parts of the US economy are predicated on a steady supply of cheap immigrant labor.

Existing laws and law enforcement leaves us with some 12 million or more illegal immigrants.

End of story Pabster, existing laws are unenforceable, they are not working, and its well past time to quit just pretending what we have now is workable.

Its still a damned if we do and damned if we don't. Can new laws and new approaches leave us less damned? Or will we just forever employ the strategy of an Ostrich as we stick our head in the sand?

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Wreckem
The debate is pretty clear americans are not for changing the laws, they are for enforcing the laws.

That's right. Americans overwhelmingly support enforcement of the many laws already on the books. We don't need a bunch of new laws, we just need the current ones to be enforced. It's becoming increasingly difficult with sanctuary cities.

And it should be noted that every single one of the top-tier Democratic Presidential Candidates supports Amnesty and a citizenship path for illegals.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Why would we even want people to come here that have every intention of ignoring our laws anyway? I don't get it. Send all of the illegals home.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Pabster
every single one of the top-tier Democratic Presidential Candidates supports Amnesty and a citizenship path for illegals.

:thumbsup:

 

[bbdub333]

End of story Pabster, existing laws are unenforceable, they are not working, and its well past time to quit just pretending what we have now is workable.

I hear that a lot, but I have yet to hear a reason why they are unenforceable. Seems more like a cop-out excuse. What about them is so hard to enforce? What makes you think new laws will be easier to enforce? From everything that has been proposed so far, the new laws seem even more complicated and unenforceable than the current. The only reason current laws are "unenforceable" is because that is the perception people such as yourself have tried to sell to support your agenda.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

End of story Pabster, existing laws are unenforceable, they are not working, and its well past time to quit just pretending what we have now is workable.

I hear that a lot, but I have yet to hear a reason why they are unenforceable. Seems more like a cop-out excuse. What about them is so hard to enforce? What makes you think new laws will be easier to enforce? From everything that has been proposed so far, the new laws seem even more complicated and unenforceable than the current. The only reason current laws are "unenforceable" is because that is the perception people such as yourself have tried to sell to support your agenda.

They are unenforceable based on the fact that those that are screaming the loudest to enforce the laws are also the same ones screaming the loudest to not raise taxes to get the revenue required to hire enough agents to man the border, implement the technology required to secure the border or end the war so that we could use the only "already budgeted for" mass of bodies (soldiers).

If you vocal critics of immigration reform truly want to enforce current laws, pony up and either start a fund to get the money or advocate immediate withdrawal from Iraq to get the bodies. But alas, just as in Iraq, they are for everyone else paying and/or sacrificing for their whims and not actually becoming part of the "solution" that they so desperately want.

Oh, Pabster, nice use of the new right-wing key word..."Sanctuary cities". I listened to Bill O on the way to work and Savage on the way home inbetween commercials on my usual station and they were both using that term. Can you define it for me?

 

[nageov3t]

seriously, though, it blows my mind how anyone could not support this bill.

I mean, we're talking young people who were brought into the country illegally by their parents and opening up a path to citizenship by encouraging college or military service? wtf... how is that a BAD thing? 😕

 

[theeedude]

Status quo is working, we don't need any more reform.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: loki8481

We shouldn't be having a discussion about amnesty and drivers' licenses for these law breakers.

yes we should... 😱

So let me ask you. What would YOU say when someone who has gone through the legal process of immigrating when they tell you their story of immigration, all the while you just grant amnesty, green cards, and drivers licenses to illegals? How do you answer them? I'm sorry, that was then this is now?

What do you do about our current visa programs? Just toss em? If you can get here, we'll give you a green card? What requirements would you make for entry into the USA, getting a license, and getting a green card? That they are breathing?

You're OK with letting non citizens VOTE?

You're OK with disolving our airport security?

I bet you wont even have an answer for these. I have yet to hear anyone actually explain how they would play this out. I doubt you will either, but I'd love to hear you try.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: loki8481
seriously, though, it blows my mind how anyone could not support this bill.

I mean, we're talking young people who were brought into the country illegally by their parents and opening up a path to citizenship by encouraging college or military service? wtf... how is that a BAD thing? 😕

I wouldn't be opposed to the citizenship for military service idea - that way the people would still earn it.

Everything else is just just plain favoritism, considering the number of people that went through all the hoops to be in this country legally (myself included). Stack of forms yay high, appointments and interviews with INS people, taken more fingerprints than OJ, bg checks for green cards, tons of money for INS attorneys etc. etc. All that when I just could've overstayed my visa or hell, just jump the fence.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

We shouldn't be having a discussion about amnesty and drivers' licenses for these law breakers.

yes we should... 😱

So let me ask you. What would YOU say when someone who has gone through the legal process of immigrating when they tell you their story of immigration, all the while you just grant amnesty, green cards, and drivers licenses to illegals? How do you answer them? I'm sorry, that was then this is now?

What do you do about our current visa programs? Just toss em? If you can get here, we'll give you a green card? What requirements would you make for entry into the USA, getting a license, and getting a green card? That they are breathing?

You're OK with letting non citizens VOTE?

You're OK with disolving our airport security?

I bet you wont even have an answer for these.

I don't think that we should just open the floodgates.

I think that we do need increased border security on both our borders, not just the one with brown people on the other side.

but I also think that after the above things are taken care of, we need some sensible immigration reform and an acknowledgment of the fact that they're here and a mass overnight deportation would be devastating to our economy... if someone's been here for X number of years, has been a productive member of american society, and has been living within the law (except, you know, the whole illegal immigrant thing), I do think that we should be willing to give them a chance and open up a path to citizenship for them.

and in the case of people who didn't come into this country illegally voluntarily, why shouldn't we do our best to integrate them into being upstanding members of society and encouraging them to join the military or go to college as a pre-requisite for legalized status? the dream act isn't about amnesty for every Tomas, Juan, and Geraldo.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Oh, Pabster, nice use of the new right-wing key word..."Sanctuary cities". I listened to Bill O on the way to work and Savage on the way home inbetween commercials on my usual station and they were both using that term. Can you define it for me?

Sanctuary City is a term that refers to a locale that OPENLY refuses to enforce the immigration laws and allows illegals safe harbor, often with full access to services to which they are not entitled.

It isn't a "right wing key word", it is a logical term for what is going on.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

We shouldn't be having a discussion about amnesty and drivers' licenses for these law breakers.

yes we should... 😱

So let me ask you. What would YOU say when someone who has gone through the legal process of immigrating when they tell you their story of immigration, all the while you just grant amnesty, green cards, and drivers licenses to illegals? How do you answer them? I'm sorry, that was then this is now?

What do you do about our current visa programs? Just toss em? If you can get here, we'll give you a green card? What requirements would you make for entry into the USA, getting a license, and getting a green card? That they are breathing?

You're OK with letting non citizens VOTE?

You're OK with disolving our airport security?

I bet you wont even have an answer for these.

I don't think that we should just open the floodgates.

I think that we do need increased border security on both our borders, not just the one with brown people on the other side.

but I also think that after the above things are taken care of, we need some sensible immigration reform and an acknowledgment of the fact that they're here and a mass overnight deportation would be devastating to our economy... if someone's been here for X number of years, has been a productive member of american society, and has been living within the law (except, you know, the whole illegal immigrant thing), I do think that we should be willing to give them a chance and open up a path to citizenship for them.

and in the case of people who didn't come into this country illegally voluntarily, why shouldn't we do our best to integrate them into being upstanding members of society and encouraging them to join the military or go to college as a pre-requisite for legalized status? the dream act isn't about amnesty for every Tomas, Juan, and Geraldo.

Thanks for avoiding my questions and giving the standard cookie cutter response. You really have put some thought into this!

 

[RightIsWrong]

He did answer your questions. He answered them by stating that there needs to be reform to give them a path to citizenship.

Also, what the hell does airport security have to do with immigration? This seems like some childish appeal to the fear of another 9/11. Newsflash for you...those people that did that, got into this country legally. I know that you will try to argue that some overstayed their visa and were hence here illegally. To that I would respond, how to you enforce deadlines on visas without going to a complete police state where every citizen is tracked 24/7/365 to ensure that they are not harboring anyone that might be here illegally or so that you can be able to apprehend anyone that has overstayed a visa expiration date?

Is this what you are advocating?

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

We shouldn't be having a discussion about amnesty and drivers' licenses for these law breakers.

yes we should... 😱

So let me ask you. What would YOU say when someone who has gone through the legal process of immigrating when they tell you their story of immigration, all the while you just grant amnesty, green cards, and drivers licenses to illegals? How do you answer them? I'm sorry, that was then this is now?

What do you do about our current visa programs? Just toss em? If you can get here, we'll give you a green card? What requirements would you make for entry into the USA, getting a license, and getting a green card? That they are breathing?

You're OK with letting non citizens VOTE?

You're OK with disolving our airport security?

I bet you wont even have an answer for these.

I don't think that we should just open the floodgates.

I think that we do need increased border security on both our borders, not just the one with brown people on the other side.

but I also think that after the above things are taken care of, we need some sensible immigration reform and an acknowledgment of the fact that they're here and a mass overnight deportation would be devastating to our economy... if someone's been here for X number of years, has been a productive member of american society, and has been living within the law (except, you know, the whole illegal immigrant thing), I do think that we should be willing to give them a chance and open up a path to citizenship for them.

and in the case of people who didn't come into this country illegally voluntarily, why shouldn't we do our best to integrate them into being upstanding members of society and encouraging them to join the military or go to college as a pre-requisite for legalized status? the dream act isn't about amnesty for every Tomas, Juan, and Geraldo.

Thanks for avoiding my questions and giving the standard cookie cutter response. You really have put some thought into this!

Thanks for avoiding my answers and giving the standard cookie cutter troll. You really have put some thought into this! 🙂

 

[dahunan]

Who do we file charges agasint for them receiving billions in social welfare monies and section 8 housing

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

We shouldn't be having a discussion about amnesty and drivers' licenses for these law breakers.

yes we should... 😱

So let me ask you. What would YOU say when someone who has gone through the legal process of immigrating when they tell you their story of immigration, all the while you just grant amnesty, green cards, and drivers licenses to illegals? How do you answer them? I'm sorry, that was then this is now?

What do you do about our current visa programs? Just toss em? If you can get here, we'll give you a green card? What requirements would you make for entry into the USA, getting a license, and getting a green card? That they are breathing?

You're OK with letting non citizens VOTE?

You're OK with disolving our airport security?

I bet you wont even have an answer for these.

I don't think that we should just open the floodgates.

I think that we do need increased border security on both our borders, not just the one with brown people on the other side.

but I also think that after the above things are taken care of, we need some sensible immigration reform and an acknowledgment of the fact that they're here and a mass overnight deportation would be devastating to our economy... if someone's been here for X number of years, has been a productive member of american society, and has been living within the law (except, you know, the whole illegal immigrant thing), I do think that we should be willing to give them a chance and open up a path to citizenship for them.

and in the case of people who didn't come into this country illegally voluntarily, why shouldn't we do our best to integrate them into being upstanding members of society and encouraging them to join the military or go to college as a pre-requisite for legalized status? the dream act isn't about amnesty for every Tomas, Juan, and Geraldo.

Thanks for avoiding my questions and giving the standard cookie cutter response. You really have put some thought into this!

Thanks for avoiding my answers and giving the standard cookie cutter troll. You really have put some thought into this! 🙂

LOL OK let me ask in sifferent words.

Legal immigrants are requires to not only go through an FBI background check, but also must provide proof from their home country they have not commited felonies. Would you support this requirement for illegals?

With a driver's license, you can register to vote. Do you support a non-citizen the right to vote?

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

LOL OK let me ask in sifferent words.

Legal immigrants are requires to not only go through an FBI background check, but also must provide proof from their home country they have not commited felonies. Would you support this requirement for illegals?

With a driver's license, you can register to vote. Do you support a non-citizen the right to vote?

Now we are actually talking about the true merits of the bill/problem and not the right-left talking points.

I can't speak for everyone but I personally think that that should be a requirement for those that would benefit from any legislation that puts them on the fast track to citizenship.

As a counter offer in this negotiation, you would support automatic green cards for those that have had children in this country upon completion of the above requirement?

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

We shouldn't be having a discussion about amnesty and drivers' licenses for these law breakers.

yes we should... 😱

So let me ask you. What would YOU say when someone who has gone through the legal process of immigrating when they tell you their story of immigration, all the while you just grant amnesty, green cards, and drivers licenses to illegals? How do you answer them? I'm sorry, that was then this is now?

What do you do about our current visa programs? Just toss em? If you can get here, we'll give you a green card? What requirements would you make for entry into the USA, getting a license, and getting a green card? That they are breathing?

You're OK with letting non citizens VOTE?

You're OK with disolving our airport security?

I bet you wont even have an answer for these.

I don't think that we should just open the floodgates.

I think that we do need increased border security on both our borders, not just the one with brown people on the other side.

but I also think that after the above things are taken care of, we need some sensible immigration reform and an acknowledgment of the fact that they're here and a mass overnight deportation would be devastating to our economy... if someone's been here for X number of years, has been a productive member of american society, and has been living within the law (except, you know, the whole illegal immigrant thing), I do think that we should be willing to give them a chance and open up a path to citizenship for them.

and in the case of people who didn't come into this country illegally voluntarily, why shouldn't we do our best to integrate them into being upstanding members of society and encouraging them to join the military or go to college as a pre-requisite for legalized status? the dream act isn't about amnesty for every Tomas, Juan, and Geraldo.

Thanks for avoiding my questions and giving the standard cookie cutter response. You really have put some thought into this!

Thanks for avoiding my answers and giving the standard cookie cutter troll. You really have put some thought into this! 🙂

LOL OK let me ask in sifferent words.

Legal immigrants are requires to not only go through an FBI background check, but also must provide proof from their home country they have not commited felonies. Would you support this requirement for illegals?

With a driver's license, you can register to vote. Do you support a non-citizen the right to vote?

first... the dream act has like nothing to do with giving illegal aliens drivers licenses or the right to vote. I do not support giving non-citizens the right to vote, and while I understand what the NY gov is trying to do, I'm not wholly on board with it.

I support some type of fast track for illegals who've been in this country for a certain amount of time and have lived within the law, not a mass amnesty... I think background checks should be part of the legalization process for anyone, and anyone who's broken laws (other than the obvious first one) or taken advantage of government services illegally should be deported.

but none of that has anything to do with the dream act, which is pretty narrow in scope (it only applies to people who were brought into this country before the age of 16, are currently under the age of 30, and only if they complete 2 years of college or military service)

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: loki8481
but none of that has anything to do with the dream act, which is pretty narrow in scope (it only applies to people who were brought into this country before the age of 16, are currently under the age of 30, and only if they complete 2 years of college or military service)

The problem with DREAM is that it rewards illegal behavior. That's unacceptable.