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Draw Call Performance In Fallout 4

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MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
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I'm currently downloading Fallout 4 for your test. Got a 390 and a 6600K, so my system is exactly what you're looking for.

Will take a while though, my internet lately isn't doing the usual 8MB/s on steam, but rather 4-5. And FO4 is 80gigs or so.
You the real MVP.
 

MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
2,488
557
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A user over on /r/hardware give the setup a whirl, on his Skylake + R9 Nano system. RAM's @ 2666Mhz, but even so, I was expecting him to get into the mid-high 40's, at best. His results:

OS: Windows 10

CPU: Intel Core i7 7700K @ 4.8 GHz

RAM: 2x8GB DDR4 @ 2666Mhz 16-17-17-36

GPU: ASUS R9 NANO (Stock)

GPU Driver: 17.3.2

First Save (Corvega)
Draw Calls: 11006
FPS: 61

Second Save (Diamond City)
Draw Calls: 8001
FPS: 67

Extremely curious to see how 3000 or 3200Mhz RAM would affect his score. Supposing a 12% increase, extrapolating from Techspot's results, That would put AMD's driver almost on par with NVidia's, at least at the draw call hellscape that is Corvega.
 

Head1985

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2014
1,826
601
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Wow skylake is beast.Btw ram speed have huge factor in fallout4 with skylake.When i tested it 3000mhz cpu+ 3000mhz ram was faster than 4500mhz cpu with 2133mhz ram.
 

Valantar

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2014
1,792
508
136
I'll see if I can give this a whirl at some point this week (unless my PC well and truly dies on me/really starts needing a Windows reinstall). It's a Core2Quad with DDR2 (I'll see if I can get it back to its rated 1066MHz) and an R9 Fury X, so I guess we can call that a worst-case scenario of sorts. Don't have too much time on my hands lately, but I'll see what I can do.

Oh, this will be my first bout of Fallout 4, btw. I've had it installed for a year or more, just haven't gotten around to playing it :p
 

CatMerc

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2016
1,114
1,146
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OS: Windows 10 64bit 14393.953
CPU: Core i5 6600K @ 4.2GHz
RAM: 16GB (2x8) DDR4 3000 15-17-17-35 2T
GPU: R9 390 G1 Gaming (1056 core, 1510 mem)
GPU Driver: 17.3.3

First Save (Corvega)
Draw Calls: 11,734
FPS: 47

Second Save (Diamond City)
Draw Calls: 8,012
FPS: 57

Too bad I don't have a 6700K, could be nice to test the effect of Hyperthreading.
 
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CatMerc

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2016
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I also decided to attempt to match Crono's configuration with clockspeed and RAM timings, however my IMC refused to run at the exact settings. I had to settle for 2400 15-17-17-42 2T. Memory timings are a finicky thing.

OS: Windows 10 64bit 14393.953
CPU: Core i5 6600K @ 3.5 GHz
RAM: 16GB (2x8) DDR4 2400 15-17-17-42 2T
GPU: R9 390 G1 Gaming (1056 core, 1510 mem)
GPU Driver: 17.3.3

First Save (Corvega)
Draw Calls: 11,702
FPS: 43

Second Save (Diamond City)
Draw Calls: 8,012
FPS: 49
 
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Valantar

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2014
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Fallout 4 will be free to play on Steam for the next couple days (May 25-28): http://uk.ign.com/articles/2017/05/24/fallout-4-is-free-this-weekend-on-xbox-one-and-steam

Gotta get some Ryzen guys to give this a go. We need results for one CCX vs two CCX's active, and again with hyperthreading disabled. So four runs of the save files. Even better would be to see how DDR4 frequency affects performance.
Wow, I had completely forgotten about this thread. Unfortunately it looks like my 1600X won't arrive until Monday, but then again I already own Fallout 4 :) As I'm playing it right now (finally got around to it!), I'll definitely be testing this out. I'll see if I can make it work on my Core2Quad too, for reference.


Edit: well, that was quicker and more painless than expected.

OS: Windows 10
CPU: Core2Quad Q9450 (2.66GHz) @3.52GHz
RAM: 6GB DDR2-880
GPU: AMD Radeon Fury X
GPU Driver: Unsure - the numbers you guys are reporting are formatted like "Radeon Software Version", which is 17.1.1 for me (lower than you guys were posting back in March), yet my driver is more or less up to date - Dxdiag lists it as dated 4/24/2017. Should we rather be listing "Driver packaging version"? That's 17.10.1731.

First Save (Corvega)
Draw Calls: 11694
FPS: 18.3

Second Save (Diamond City)
Draw Calls: 8025
FPS: 21.4

Definitely puts on display the god-awful performance I get in certain sections of this game.
 
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MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
2,488
557
136
Wow, I had completely forgotten about this thread. Unfortunately it looks like my 1600X won't arrive until Monday, but then again I already own Fallout 4 :) As I'm playing it right now (finally got around to it!), I'll definitely be testing this out. I'll see if I can make it work on my Core2Quad too, for reference.


Edit: well, that was quicker and more painless than expected.

OS: Windows 10
CPU: Core2Quad Q9450 (2.66GHz) @3.52GHz
RAM: 6GB DDR2-880
GPU: AMD Radeon Fury X
GPU Driver: Unsure - the numbers you guys are reporting are formatted like "Radeon Software Version", which is 17.1.1 for me (lower than you guys were posting back in March), yet my driver is more or less up to date - Dxdiag lists it as dated 4/24/2017. Should we rather be listing "Driver packaging version"? That's 17.10.1731.

First Save (Corvega)
Draw Calls: 11694
FPS: 18.3

Second Save (Diamond City)
Draw Calls: 8025
FPS: 21.4

Definitely puts on display the god-awful performance I get in certain sections of this game.


That's a pretty hefty overclock you've got there. I'm willing to bet that fast RAM would have brought it on par with my Phenom II.
 

Valantar

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2014
1,792
508
136
That's a pretty hefty overclock you've got there. I'm willing to bet that fast RAM would have brought it on par with my Phenom II.
The RAM is actually rated at DDR2-1066 (with timings like 5-6-6-16 or some such), but ever since one out of the four sticks died a couple of months ago I've been keeping them at a 1:1 FSB ratio (I believe I ran them at something like 1050MHz effective before that). I didn't want to push it considering I still needed the PC to work for a while yet. I'm happy with the OC, though - the SpeedStep idle clock is now higher than the stock max clock! Funny thing is that it isn't even especially hot - it idles at around 45-55 degrees (depending on which core you're looking at), usually hovers at around 60 while gaming, and eventually nears 90 if I run OCCT or something similar for more than 30 minutes. With a Hyper 212 Evo. I have no complaints.

As for the driver version, for some reason I can't bring up the update screen any more. Must be another one of the many things that got borked when that DIMM died on me. I'll be doing a full reinstall once I get my new CPU and motherboard, things will more than likely straighten out then. Although I did want to see if my upgraded-from-Windows 7 W10 installation could handle a motherboard and CPU swap to a 9-years newer architecture :p
 

nathanddrews

Graphics Cards, CPU Moderator
Super Moderator
Aug 9, 2016
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FO4 is F2P this weekend? I hope that also means a big sale! I've been waiting to buy it (been playing a friend's copy from his Library), but the $60 price and $50 DLC is way too damn high.

I'd be happy to participate in this test if there are any requests. In addition to my sig rig, I've got an i3-2100+HD7750, i3-2100+GTX470, i5-3470+GTX570, and some C2D and C2Q machines and miscellaneous older GPUs.
 

MylegsareOK

Junior Member
Jul 27, 2017
1
0
6
OS: Windows 10 Pro 64bit
CPU: Core i3 7350K @4.2GHz
RAM: 16GB (2x8) DDR4 3200 16-18-18-38
GPU: EVGA 1070 FTW @ 2GHz core, +200 Mem
GPU Driver: 384.76

First Save (Corvega)
Draw Calls: 11,714
FPS: 55

Second Save (Diamond City)
Draw Calls: 8,007
FPS: 62
 

CarlGameDev

Junior Member
Aug 27, 2017
5
0
11
Did anyone find out exactly why Ryzen isn't able to produce as much draw calls as Intel counterparts and older AMD CPUs ?
Does the draw call has to go through Infinity Fabric before going to a PCI lane (unlikely), or do they get throttled by multi-threading locks inside the render thread that waits
for something to arrive from another CCX through IF ?
 

MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
2,488
557
136
Did anyone find out exactly why Ryzen isn't able to produce as much draw calls as Intel counterparts and older AMD CPUs ?
Does the draw call has to go through Infinity Fabric before going to a PCI lane (unlikely), or do they get throttled by multi-threading locks inside the render thread that waits
for something to arrive from another CCX through IF ?
Ryzen is better than older AMD CPUs, which were even slower than Core 2 at draw calls. A big culprit in Ryzen's sub-Sandybridge draw call performance, is when the driver thread is on a different CCX to whichever thread it communicates with. Having very fast RAM can help, but not as much as having the driver thread on the same CCX.

As for what makes one architecture faster at draw calls than another, nobody knows. We'd need somebody who actually knows what they're talking about (e.g, Boris Vorontsov), to somehow get in contact with Intel and AMD to discuss the issue. Lord knows tech reviewers wouldn't be able to do it; when was the last time one of them even bothered to investigate the number of draw calls issued in a game?
 
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CarlGameDev

Junior Member
Aug 27, 2017
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Ryzen is better than older AMD CPUs, which were even slower than Core 2 at draw calls. A big culprit in Ryzen's sub-Sandybridge draw call performance, is when the driver thread is on a different CCX to whichever thread it communicates with. Having very fast RAM can help, but not as much as having the driver thread on the same CCX.

As for what makes one architecture faster at draw calls than another, nobody knows. We'd need somebody who actually knows what they're talking about (e.g, Boris Vorontsov), to somehow get in contact with Intel and AMD to discuss the issue. Lord knows tech reviewers wouldn't be able to do it; when was the last time one of them even bothered to investigate the number of draw calls issued in a game?
Thanks a lot for quick response, you saved me so much googling time.
So we won't get this issue with desktop versions of Raven Ridge, but we probably won't hit this draw call count at all with an integrated GPU at playable frame rates.
 
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MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
2,488
557
136
Thanks a lot for quick response, you saved me so much googling time.
So we won't get this issue with desktop versions of Raven Ridge, but we probably won't hit this draw call count at all with an integrated GPU at playable frame rates.
My old system was a Phenom II x4 965 BE with an HD 7850. Was getting ~20fps in this draw call constrained scene. Now that I've upgraded to an i7 6700k and an HD 7850, I get around 30fps, whereas if I had a competent GPU, I'd need something like a Fury to come close to a CPU bottleneck.

Aren't the new APUs coming out with iGPUs on par with the HD 7750/7770? Much more likely to hit a GPU bottleneck before draw calls become an issue.
 

CarlGameDev

Junior Member
Aug 27, 2017
5
0
11
My old system was a Phenom II x4 965 BE with an HD 7850. Was getting ~20fps in this draw call constrained scene. Now that I've upgraded to an i7 6700k and an HD 7850, I get around 30fps, whereas if I had a competent GPU, I'd need something like a Fury to come close to a CPU bottleneck.

Aren't the new APUs coming out with iGPUs on par with the HD 7750/7770? Much more likely to hit a GPU bottleneck before draw calls become an issue.
Yep, definitely will be capped by iGPU. Desktop versions of Raven Ridge APUs are expected to have ~2000 GFlops, overclockable up to ~2400.
 

Kacmem

Junior Member
Dec 11, 2017
3
0
1
Hello Sirs,

Any updates?

OS: Windows 10 Home 64bit
CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 1600 (stock 3400Mhz)
RAM: 16GB (2x8) DDR4 2800Mhz 16-17-17-35
GPU: MSI gtx 1080 Gaming X (stock)
GPU Driver: 388.59
SMT on/off = no changes

First Save (Corvega)
Draw Calls: 11,311
FPS: 47

Second Save (Diamond City)
Draw Calls: 8,164
FPS: 52

I'm really wondering that this topic is not so popular. Looks like only few guys want to play Fallout 4 on AMD processors with 60 fps+ in big cities.
 

MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
2,488
557
136
Hello Sirs,

Any updates?

OS: Windows 10 Home 64bit
CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 1600 (stock 3400Mhz)
RAM: 16GB (2x8) DDR4 2800Mhz 16-17-17-35
GPU: MSI gtx 1080 Gaming X (stock)
GPU Driver: 388.59
SMT on/off = no changes

First Save (Corvega)
Draw Calls: 11,311
FPS: 47

Second Save (Diamond City)
Draw Calls: 8,164
FPS: 52

I'm really wondering that this topic is not so popular. Looks like only few guys want to play Fallout 4 on AMD processors with 60 fps+ in big cities.

The performance sounds about right, considering Ryzen's draw call performance across multiple CCX's. How does it fare if you put Fallout 4 on a single CCX?

Edit: It's also interesting that NVidia's driver doesn't appear to perform better than AMD's.
 

Kacmem

Junior Member
Dec 11, 2017
3
0
1
The performance sounds about right, considering Ryzen's draw call performance across multiple CCX's. How does it fare if you put Fallout 4 on a single CCX?

Edit: It's also interesting that NVidia's driver doesn't appear to perform better than AMD's.
What can you recommend me? Sorry, I'm a big noob in CCX, Cores etc
 

MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
2,488
557
136
What can you recommend me? Sorry, I'm a big noob in CCX, Cores etc
In Task Manager, under the Processes tab, right-click Fallout4.exe -> Set Affinity -> Tick the last 6 threads (if SMT is enabled, otherwise last 3)
 

Kacmem

Junior Member
Dec 11, 2017
3
0
1
In Task Manager, under the Processes tab, right-click Fallout4.exe -> Set Affinity -> Tick the last 6 threads (if SMT is enabled, otherwise last 3)
You mean I should make smth like that? (please find attached image)


By defaults all cores were picked. SMT is ON
 

MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
2,488
557
136
You mean I should make smth like that? (please find attached image)


By defaults all cores were picked. SMT is ON
Yeah, that's correct. The reason why I ask for you to test that, is because of AMD's piece of tech called Infinity Fabric.

Rather than designing a monolithic 8 and 6 six core die, AMD develops what is known as a CCX; a piece of silicon with 4 cores inside it. They put these two dies together into one package, and then disable a core in each CCX when those particular cores are found to be defective; that's the difference between the tiers of CPUs.

Ryzen 8 core = 2x 4 core CCXs
Ryzen 6 core = 2x 4 core CCXs with one disabled in each
Ryzen 4 core = 2x 4 core CCXs with two disabled in each

In my draw call thread, we found there is a direct hit to draw call performance (~20%) when the driver thread is on a separate CCX than the thread it is communicating with. I'm curious to see how Fallout 4 would perform when that inter-CCX penalty is removed from the equation.
 
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