DPC latency with Geforce 10x0 series?

[wilds]

Possible fix?
https://forums.geforce.com/default/.../gtx-1080-high-dpc-latency-and-stuttering/18/
https://youtu.be/x230aMQBwxg

I do have high-ish latency (on a Gsync enabled monitor), but I never checked it when I had my R9 290 installed. Without monitoring, I cannot perceive that latency is high. I think I will let NV fix this one for me.

If I noticed that latency is high, I probably would try enabling "K-Boost".

 

[TheRyuu]

Just remember that you're not playing "DPC Latency". You're playing insert game here.

While DPC latency can be a indicator of an issue it is not the only thing that should be taken into account since even a higher DPC latency can actually make for smoother frame times[1]. Without data such as frame timings gathered from programs like FRAPS I would caution against trusting any reports that are solely based on DPC latency without additional evidence (how something "feels" is not valid data).

I'm not saying that people are not experiencing issues with smoothness on pascal cards but I've seen far too much BS posted about stuff like DPC latency, HPET[2], etc. so just take these reports with a grain of salt until someone can actually be bothered to gather data which can't be tainted by human perception and bias.

This may be an unpopular opinion but I just feel very strongly about this since I believe that the source of a lot of peoples issues described on forums like this one originate from non-standard configurations that have been "tweaked" since clearly you know better than the developers/makers of the software/driver/operating system. I'll reiterate that I'm not saying that these problems don't exist I'm just saying that we need to have a higher standard for what qualifies as evidence. Frame time information[3][4] recorded in a program such as FRAPS is one example of good evidence to document a problem such as this one.

[1] http://esreality.com/post/2640619/input-lag-tests-ql-csgo/#pid2640890
[2] Just leave it on, Windows versions since 7 automatically choose the best available timer source. Also see [1].
[3] https://techreport.com/review/21516/inside-the-second-a-new-look-at-game-benchmarking
[4] https://techreport.com/review/23246/inside-the-second-gaming-performance-with-today-cpus

 

[Kenmitch]

I went ahead and did some testing.

Fresh WIn10 Pro x64install with all available updates, current drivers.

I used DDU to wipe the Nvidia drivers with the disable automatic driver option.

This is using the generic Microsoft display driver.

I installed the latest Nvidia drivers using advanced and selecting just the display driver and PhysX driver.
Only option I changed in the NVidia control panel was I prefer maximum performance.

WTF?

Then it'll randomly look like this which is fine.

Then it'll just randomly do this.

Rinse and repeat....Crap!

Going to just game and see and play around with OC and see how she goes.

Have a 30 day return window on the card if needed. Could always sell it local while there somewhat scarce still.

 

[Kenmitch]

@madpacket

Ignoring the above I decided to just see how gameplay is and if the alleged issue shown in my above post plays any part. I don't really notice anything while gaming at the moment. Fresh install of OS seemed to get rid of what I was experiencing so far.

Playing around with my OC a little to see how it goes. I'm using the Zotac Firestorm software as I had to install it to disable the annoying (too me) Led lights.

Just doing some canned benchmarks of a couple of games too see how it goes and to also see what the fps increase is.

Using the following settings in Firestorm.

+130 on the core
+502 on the memory
120% on power limit
92C on temp target

Fan set to 100% to eliminate the temps at this time. Surprisingly quiet too me at least. Sound pretty much matches my rig as it's barely noticeable too me.

Not sure how MS Afterburner works for OC the card as I haven't tried it yet to see. The + values in Firestorm seem to really apply 1/2 of what is actually selected with the sliders.

Using FarCry Primal canned benchmark for following results.

Boosted to 2062
Memory 9026
Max temp 52c

Going to play around with these setting and see how they go.

 

[Zstream]

@madpacket

Ignoring the above I decided to just see how gameplay is and if the alleged issue shown in my above post plays any part. I don't really notice anything while gaming at the moment. Fresh install of OS seemed to get rid of what I was experiencing so far.

Playing around with my OC a little to see how it goes. I'm using the Zotac Firestorm software as I had to install it to disable the annoying (too me) Led lights.

Just doing some canned benchmarks of a couple of games too see how it goes and to also see what the fps increase is.

Using the following settings in Firestorm.

+130 on the core
+502 on the memory
120% on power limit
92C on temp target

Fan set to 100% to eliminate the temps at this time. Surprisingly quiet too me at least. Sound pretty much matches my rig as it's barely noticeable too me.

Not sure how MS Afterburner works for OC the card as I haven't tried it yet to see. The + values in Firestorm seem to really apply 1/2 of what is actually selected with the sliders.

Using FarCry Primal canned benchmark for following results.

Boosted to 2062
Memory 9026
Max temp 52c

Going to play around with these setting and see how they go.

Isn't the issue more or less not when you're gaming, but like Netflix, YouTube etc..?

 

[amenx]

New driver out, doesnt address this issue yet:

http://www.nvidia.com/download/driverResults.aspx/105037/en-us

But Vive mini-DP issue fixed as well as DVI 330hz pixel clock boot problem. So theres 2 of the "design flaws" mentioned .

 

[Kenmitch]

Isn't the issue more or less not when you're gaming, but like Netflix, YouTube etc..?

Those images are from a idle desktop with Win 10 doing whatever it does when one is doing nothing at all.

I currently am experiencing zero issues after the fresh install of the OS. Don't notice any abnormalities playing games or watching videos at this time.

Not really sure what's up with LatencyMon as it looks pretty discouraging viewing the results. Decided I'll ignore it before the placebo effect settles in.

 

[MajinCry]

Its fine to count, so long as it isnt used to forward ones agenda. Which I guess would be ro discourage Nvidia sales because bugs are now, get this, design flaws.
Kinda sick.

That sounds like salesperson shpipple. Bad drivers are a fine reason ta avoid purchasing a brand. Wasn't that a hayuuuuge driving force fer NVidia's guerilla marketing up until recently?

 

[Keysplayr]

That sounds like salesperson shpipple. Bad drivers are a fine reason ta avoid purchasing a brand. Wasn't that a hayuuuuge driving force fer NVidia's guerilla marketing up until recently?

Oh does it? Sorry.

 

[Madpacket]

Thanks for the updates. The issue people are experience differ but are generally typical of high DPC latency.

- A lot are reporting sound issues (pops, clicks, brief cut outs)
- Some are report erratic frame rate behaviour (even though FRAPS is reporting everything working fine) which makes the gaming experience feel choppy.
- stuttering in Windows, video playback, scrolling through content heavy web pages etc.

Kboost/Powermizer seems to work for some people but is not really a fix, it's a band aid that can lead to higher power draw at idle states. Unacceptable.

More and more people are reporting in the same issue, I don't think is a minor issue.

This is a good description from someone at the Geforce forums who "upgraded" from a Geforce 970.

"Hi,

I upgraded my GTX 970 G1 Gaming with the GTX 1070 G1 Gaming. I have had Batman Arkham Knight installed from the start and played it on both cards (i know it's not the best example but i have a baseline with the 970). On the new card i noticed very discrete but noticeable mini-freezes. I have also had the founders edition card of a week and also noticed it before execution cutscenes, but on the G1 Gaming i can feel them almost everywhere. I didn't try additional games yet, but something in the frame rate consistency seems to be different compared to the GTX 970. I haven't had any other issues though, the FPS is great, image quality beautiful, no sound issues etc

Please fix this ASAP Nvidia if it's something related to the drivers."

More info here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1605618/nvidia-update-gtx-1080-1070-high-dpc-latency-and-stuttering

I wouldn't bet on Nvidia releasing a driver update anytime soon that addresses this issue. These DPC issues can be hard to solve.

This is simply unacceptable given the price of these cards. I recommend anyone purchasing a 1070 / 1080 make sure they have the capability of returning the card. Also test it thoroughly if already purchased.

I think this sums up the problem: There's no workaround for this problem if you have it.

"Manuel, or someone @ Nvidia: Can we please get an update? This is easily the biggest issue Pascal has had to date, trumping the fan revving issue, the flickering issue, and the HTC vive issue. Those issues at least had workarounds that we could implement until the fix came. In this case there is no workaround and it's causing wide spread issues."

 

[wilds]

Ah this is frustrating. I know I have high latency, but I cannot find any frame time abnormalities or examples of stuttering.
Is it even worth returning the card if the problem is imperceptible? I agree that I cannot see NV fixing this within the next month minimum.

Anyone else having trouble finding similar issues with what some users are reporting? This must be the case with every 10 series GPU so far, yet all reviewers missed this.

 

[Annisman*]

Idk guys I'm not seeing any problems from my card.

 

[Hitman928]

Ah this is frustrating. I know I have high latency, but I cannot find any frame time abnormalities or examples of stuttering.
Is it even worth returning the card if the problem is imperceptible? I agree that I cannot see NV fixing this within the next month minimum.

Anyone else having trouble finding similar issues with what some users are reporting? This must be the case with every 10 series GPU so far, yet all reviewers missed this.

If you don't see/feel an issue, then there's no reason to return the card.

 

[DooKey]

Idk guys I'm not seeing any problems from my card.

Same here. However, I'm sure NV will take a serious look at the issue.

 

[Madpacket]

Ah this is frustrating. I know I have high latency, but I cannot find any frame time abnormalities or examples of stuttering.
Is it even worth returning the card if the problem is imperceptible? I agree that I cannot see NV fixing this within the next month minimum.

Anyone else having trouble finding similar issues with what some users are reporting? This must be the case with every 10 series GPU so far, yet all reviewers missed this.

That only you can answer. I'm personally not comfortable with this issue as not everyone uses a computer the same way (DPC latency causes weird problems) and it could manifest in other areas of computing besides gaming.

What kind of latency are you seeing? Apparently people complaining of spikes up to 1500ms are noticing severe stutterers in game. Perhaps your latency is under the threshold?

 

[Kenmitch]

The root of the evil on my rig at least looks too be the clocks at idle. I'm leaning towards a over aggressive power management system or driver bug at this time. DPC latency is all over the place at idle as you can see from my images above. I'm guessing it's the I prefer maximum performance setting in the Nvidia control panel that switches my clocks to 1607/2003 when I open chrome. Viewing LatencyMon with chrome open the DPC latency issues go away. I monitored it for around 30-40 minutes or so with good results. Closing chrome the issue rears it's ugly head again once the clocks drop. Tested a couple times with end results the same every time. I guess it explains why watching videos or playing games my rig feels/looks/acts fine after a fresh install.

Kind of similar too AMD's low clocks flicker issue in the end.

 

[Madpacket]

The root of the evil on my rig at least looks too be the clocks at idle. I'm leaning towards a over aggressive power management system or driver bug at this time. DPC latency is all over the place at idle as you can see from my images above. I'm guessing it's the I prefer maximum performance setting in the Nvidia control panel that switches my clocks to 1607/2003 when I open chrome. Viewing LatencyMon with chrome open the DPC latency issues go away. I monitored it for around 30-40 minutes or so with good results. Closing chrome the issue rears it's ugly head again once the clocks drop. Tested a couple times with end results the same every time. I guess it explains why watching videos or playing games my rig feels/looks/acts fine after a fresh install.

Kind of similar too AMD's low clocks flicker issue in the end.

Interesting. I agree this is a real fundamental power issue but it needs to be fixed. It doesn't exist in the 9x0 series so I really hope this isn't a hardware issue that can only be fixed by ruining idle wattage performance.

I just got notification my Zotac Amp Extreme 1070 has been successfully delivered. I'm very conflicted now if I should even open it or just send it back. I know if I don't open it I won't get dinged for a open box fee but if the card has DPC latency issues can I consider that defective and RMA it instead? If this is a fundamental design flaw (like Fury Nano's and coil whine) then what's the use in RMA'ing it for another 1070?

I have to wait until Monday anyway before I can do anything so I'll think it over the weekend.

 

[SlitheryDee]

I'm not seeing this. I'm not noticing and micro freezes, stuttering or sound issues. I haven't looked at latency though. Will probably do that sometime tonight.

Playing on a GTX 1070 FE/w10 64bit.

 

[Bacon1]

Looks like nvidia is aware of the issue:

Thank you. No need to submit further survey feedbacks on this issue. We believe we understand the root cause and will provide a fix through a future driver. At this time I do not have an ETA but as soon as I have further information, I will share with everyone.

https://forums.geforce.com/default/...-latency-and-stuttering/post/4926836/#4926836

 

[Silverforce11]

Possible fix?
https://forums.geforce.com/default/.../gtx-1080-high-dpc-latency-and-stuttering/18/
https://youtu.be/x230aMQBwxg

I do have high-ish latency (on a Gsync enabled monitor), but I never checked it when I had my R9 290 installed. Without monitoring, I cannot perceive that latency is high. I think I will let NV fix this one for me.

If I noticed that latency is high, I probably would try enabling "K-Boost".

K Boost? That's to lock the boost clocks in a single state AFAIK..

It seems Boost 3.0 is driver based if that's the case, causing the driver dll to hog system resources periodically.

 

[wilds]

K Boost? That's to lock the boost clocks in a single state AFAIK..

It seems Boost 3.0 is driver based if that's the case, causing the driver dll to hog system resources periodically.

But it does help a lot with the latency problem. 1070/1080 class performance is basically unrivaled, but it is still lackluster overall. This is a great temporary fix, as long as K boost is easily disabled on the fly. I see no alternative than switching back to a 980 ti, or accepting a massive loss in performance with an older card. Increased power consumption is definitely worth the price imo, as Pascal sips power as it is.

I do the same thing on 2 NV laptops. Forcing maximum clockspeed or mininum 2d clocks is a valuable feature. If all it takes is having 2 .batch files on the desktop for On/Off with NvidiaInspector, then I'm perfectly happy doing that.

Forcing maximum 3d clocks doesn't raise idle power consumption as much as one would think. I'm definitely keeping the card.

I am having simillar latency readings as others in the Nvidia forum, with spikes near 3ms at idle. No symptoms in game or with audio/video fortunately. It almost feels like a power saving bug.

 

[Deders]

How many of the people who have seen this are still using the upgraded version of windows 10 as opposed to a fresh install? The upgrade will use older drivers (designed for win 7 or whatever) in compatibility mode which induces latency much like the results seen on screenshots.

Another time I've seen high latencies like this is due to a bug in the intel.inf motherboard drivers installer on x64 bit systems not actually installing all the necessary drivers. The same installer package will install drivers properly on x32 systems, but leaves loads out with x64 which does lead to timing instabilities, highe latencies and less performance which can affect the WEI score.

Installing the package with the -overall switch usually results in better performance and latencies.

I'm not saying that there isn't a problem with the Nvidia drivers, but it would be much easier to isolate if these other issues were ruled out of the equation.

 

[TheRyuu]

Ah this is frustrating. I know I have high latency, but I cannot find any frame time abnormalities or examples of stuttering.
Is it even worth returning the card if the problem is imperceptible? I agree that I cannot see NV fixing this within the next month minimum.

This was exactly my point in my earlier post.

Another time I've seen high latencies like this is due to a bug in the intel.inf motherboard drivers installer on x64 bit systems not actually installing all the necessary drivers. The same installer package will install drivers properly on x32 systems, but leaves loads out with x64 which does lead to timing instabilities, highe latencies and less performance which can affect the WEI score.

Installing the package with the -overall switch usually results in better performance and latencies.

Modern Intel motherboard "driver" installers do not actually contain any drivers. They're basically just designed so everything shows up with proper names in device manager. No actual drivers ever get installed.

 

[Deders]

Modern Intel motherboard "driver" installers do not actually contain any drivers. They're basically just designed so everything shows up with proper names in device manager. No actual drivers ever get installed.

They do contain drivers, they just don't get installed due to a bug in the installer. This is exactly why the rumour that they don't contain drivers has become commonplace.

I've seen for myself on quite a few different builds across multiple generations. huge performance differences in certain situations (not all round) between installing the package normally and installing it with the -overall switch, which is when the drivers DO actually install.

 

[x3sphere]

Popped in the 1080 about a month ago and used to have a 980 Ti, haven't noticed any anomalies personally. This is my work rig, I usually have multiple VMs open that tax the system pretty hard (not the GPU though, it's at idle usually). Haven't had any issues with video or music playback, either. Strange.