Downshifting or not with manual transmission in city?

[Remobz]

Hello all,

I hear sooooo many manual drivers debate over whether you should downshift to a stop or use your brakes to stop? Clutch kit vs brake pads being worn out debate as well.

Specifically, what is the proper way to stop and go city driving and driving under 30mph speed limit more or less?

 

[amdhunter]

Meh. Sometimes I'll use the brake. Sometimes I'll downshift. Sometimes I'll throw it in neutral and coast to a stop.

Why settle on just one? Just drive and do what your gut tells you in that moment.

 

[kitatech]

Under 30 I stay in 3rd where I can cruise comfortably from 12 to 40mph...I can accelerate from a rolling stop to 25 in 2nd in traffic...this is a function of an engine's torque range and differs with each car...but in the case of the I4 Camry/5speed MT, there's enough torque to avoid a lot of shifting. I never cruise in neutral...shifting to N only when coming to a stop.

Once over 35, if there's little traffic, I'll shift to 4th but if the speed limit is 40 I have to be careful as the low RPM's freewheeling will easily creep to 45+...I stay in 4th until the speed limit is 55...4th keeps me from getting much over 55 before the engine pulls me back to the speed limit.

All this suggests that I generally avoid running RPMs lower than 2k (edit: 30mph in 3rd is 2k, with just enough "drag" to effectively brake with just lifting my right foot)...I like the engine to have some braking power so I don't have to keep braking...running up to 2.5k RPMs hasn't resulted in excessive oil use nor decreased MPG....

 

[exdeath]

If I down shift I stab the throttle and rev match. I prefer not to jerk the hell out of my car, mechanically over rev my engine internals, or possibly cause a loss of control and wreck by just down shifting and dumping the clutch at the same RPM.

Braking with the engine like that is doing it very wrong, as is burning up the clutch and synchros to forcibly "rev match" incorrectly via friction.


Perfect matched downshift to low gear and let off the throttle then take off again without touching the brakes? I do that all the time.

 

[tweakmonkey]

Brakes are for stopping, not clutches. For slowing down you should just let go of the gas. If you need to stop anymore than that, use the brakes.

Downshift when it's time to accelerate or if you've let the revs run too low so you're in the powerband when you need to accelerate again. And rev match on downshifts.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Brakes are for stopping, not clutches.

What does that have to do with anything? Downshifting doesn't use the clutch to decelerate.

For the OP: Downshifting is fine for coasting down slowly, but it doesn't come anywhere close to the deceleration you can get from using the brakes. Done properly, it doesn't put any excess strain on anything, but it's just plain not that useful on the street. As another poster said, in the city I often just leave it in 3rd and coast down with the car still in gear unless I need to stop, in which case I just use the brakes.

ZV

 

[kitatech]

Brakes are for stopping, not clutches. For slowing down you should just let go of the gas. If you need to stop anymore than that, use the brakes.

Downshift when it's time to accelerate or if you've let the revs run too low so you're in the powerband when you need to accelerate again. And rev match on downshifts.

EXACTLY...but to be able to do that you have to run at RPMs high enough in the torque range for the engine to have SOME braking power...less than 2k RPM won't cut it...@ 2k the engine freewheels like an AT, and that's not why I got an MT...

 

[thedarkwolf]

Do whatever the hell you want. I follow amdhunter's thoughts on it.

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

Heel-Toe all the time, everytime!

Listen to her purrrr


EDIT: really though. I agree with AMD... strange... I rarely do that.

 

[kitatech]

Heel-Toe all the time, everytime!

Listen to her purrrr


EDIT: really though. I agree with AMD... strange... I rarely do that.

Yeah, I love that...my older cars had 4 speeds or had little power with the 5sp. and they rev'd high...if I keep the Camry's revs up, and I can recall those cars...the BMW 2002 4-sp, Fiat spider and Plymouth Sapporo/Mitzu Galant 5sp (whose engine in the 70s was much the same design as the Camry I4 thirty years later)...loved their road manners...

 

[Remobz]

Do whatever the hell you want. I follow amdhunter's thoughts on it.

So what would your advice be for your little sister or brother or friend just learning for the first time how to handle manual transmission. You have to tell them something and you don't want them doing complicated or "experienced" procedures that could get them in an accident.

I am sure your driving schools have set procedures that you all must follow right?


OK I found this video......so we all in agreement for first time manual drivers to do it this way?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLbeycz8HGA

 

[slashbinslashbash]

I downshift without touching the clutch whenever possible (NOT into first), but mostly as a mental/foot exercise in rev matching. I've gotten to where I can do most upshifts and downshifts without using the clutch if I do it right. (Not always possible due to need to accelerate or decelerate hard.) Sometimes downshifting into 3rd gear gives me a problem, I think the syncros might be worn on that one.

Coming to a complete stop, I usually need to end up with the clutch in, foot on the brakes, unless I happen to catch some dip/bump in the road that stops my car completely from a slow roll. If I am in stop-and-go traffic (say 15 MPH max) then I will just leave the shifter in 1st, and modulate the gas and clutch to stop and go as much as possible, except for a last-minute brake to come to a complete stop (which I usually try to avoid, just as a little game for myself. Even coming up to a red light, if I'm the only car at the light, I will downshift well in advance, work my way down to 2nd and idle up to the light without touching the brakes. If the light turns green before I reach it, all I have to do is accelerate, I'm already in the right gear.)

 

[thedarkwolf]

So what would your advice be for your little sister or brother or friend just learning for the first time how to handle manual transmission. You have to tell them something and you don't want them doing complicated or "experienced" procedures that could get them in an accident.

I am sure your driving schools have set procedures that you all must follow right?


OK I found this video......so we all in agreement for first time manual drivers to do it this way?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLbeycz8HGA

I'd tell them not to downshift to 1st unless you are basically crawling. With the gearing in 1st you can lock up the tires if you let the clutch out too quickly and don't rev match. As long as you aren't hitting really high RPMs when you downshift there really isn't much you can do to screw up. Don't down shift to 1st at 30mph .

 

[xSkyDrAx]

So what would your advice be for your little sister or brother or friend just learning for the first time how to handle manual transmission. You have to tell them something and you don't want them doing complicated or "experienced" procedures that could get them in an accident.

I am sure your driving schools have set procedures that you all must follow right?


OK I found this video......so we all in agreement for first time manual drivers to do it this way?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLbeycz8HGA

If they're learning I would just go with stay in gear, brake, change to neutral when stopped and then go again. This keeps things most simple but is only for straight forward scenarios but again if they're learning they will have time later to pick up the extra stuff about when to downshift. Mainly this is just to keep things simple and not have them over think the situation when they're learning.

As for city driving, typically I will stay in gear until I am almost stopped and then switch to neutral. If traffic is picking up again before full stop then I'll typically drop down to 2nd. I'll rev match if I'm going something like from 4th to 3rd about to go around a corner/curve. Usually if I have to switch to 2nd I'll be braking to the point where it'll be at the right speed for 2nd to engage without needing to rev match.

 

[Railgun]

Don't down shift to 1st at 30mph .

Depends on your gearing.

I rarely, if ever will downshift into 1st while rolling unless it's for a very specific reason.

As for other gears, I do pretty often, usually staying around 2500-ish, but it all depends on traffic conditions.

As for the argument about clutch wear...learn how to drive stick and it's a non-issue.

For new drivers, absolutely teach how to downshift. You going to say slow down while in 4th, but as soon as traffic starts to move again, you stay in 4th and accelerate, bogging the engine down? I don't think so.

Not using the clutch to shift is not a skill to teach and irrelevant other than showing off.

 

[Genx87]

Downshift all the time and have through two Audi's. Never burned out a clutch. First Audi I traded in at 175K, the second one is still in my driveway with 227K.

Ill downshift all the way down to 2nd gear if possible.

 

[_Rick_]

I downshift all the time to slow down.
All the way down to first.

If I see a red light or stationary/slow ahead, clutch out, blast of gas, gear down, clutch in, coast until I can shift down again.
Going into first, I usually use two jabs at the gas pedal and some clutch slip on the down-rev to get the match right and avoid juddering about.

Yes, rev-matching might reduce some of the efficiency gain from shifting down to coast, but it also reduces clutch wear and drive train stresses, and makes the car more controllable and easier to drive, as you are in-gear and don't have to focus on the left foot operating the clutch.

For a beginner, the one rule when rolling up to a red light from a distance: coast and shift down when the engine drops out of the torque band. For N/A cars, that's usually between 2k-5k rpm (depending on displacement, stroke), for turbo's it's around 1.5k-2.5k rpm (but of course, you have to wait for the turbo to spool up to really get the torque) and a decent hybrid should just switch the engine off. Superchargers should be somewhere between turbos and suckers, as they need RPM for boost, as opposed to throttle.
Once you have identified the low rpms for the downshift, the amount of throttle and waiting needed to get to the proper rpm of the gear can be learned. Irritatingly, if you're outside the proper rpm and try to revmatch the downshift, the amount of throttle will be different, the target revs will be different, and you can get it jumbled up. So it's important to get the timing right.

Oh, and why do I go down to first?
While slowing down, I use no fuel, and while idling towards the red light, I use the same amount of fuel, I would while idling stationary, excepting some very slight rolling resistance issues and drive train losses. I also often get lucky, and the light changes to green, while I haven't yet come to a stop, and I can just pull away without having to clutch-in in first gear, further reducing clutch wear. Of course, that's not something that's possible in dense traffic, but in light traffic, it works quite well.

 

[pauldun170]

I'm rarely in neutral and I take advantage of downshifting\engine braking all the time for everything from stop and go traffic to setting up the chassis on entering sweepers\twisties.

On all the cars I've owned, rotors have lasted 100k+ miles (I've never had to replace rotors on any of my personal cars). Brake pads last for a very long time, I can't remember the last time I changed them but its been a few years. I have never needed to replace a clutch. This includes boneheaded shenanigans, street racing, countless burnouts. Last couple of cars were sold at 140K on the clock and many years of abuse by me. I can't recall the last time any of the stick owners I know had to replace a clutch on a car with less than 180K miles.

Leave it in (downshift as needed) gear until you are about to stop, otherwise always be prepared to be back on the throttle. At 5-10 mph approaching a light and the light turns green, do you want to be in neutral or do you want to already be in 2nd gear ready to go?
Also keep your foot off the clutch pedal if you are not disengaging\engaging it. Never "just rest your foot there" while driving. Every person I've known who has had to replace a clutch with less than 100,000 miles on it had that stupid habit of resting their foot there.

You are not hitting a race track running it at close to redline. In regular driving conditions there is no problem downshifting, using engine braking to assist in slowing down and stopping (results in MUCH smoother and controlled stops for most people).
There will be no noticeable wear on the engine. At most, if you are spending a lot of time decelerating from high RPMs you might see an increase in oil consumption.

 

[Arkaign]

I just stay aware and adjust by situation. I seldom downshift to 1st. I go to neutral quite a lot. I have never had a clutch failure outside of a modded turbo AWD DSM, and that was literally the last thing to break after many many thousands of dollars in everything else breaking first. The other cars I've had have been sold with 250k-315k on them, all original drivetrains, with a major exception to a perfectly maintained Neon that died with a little less than 60k on it (head made of tin foil and pot metal basically).

But yeah, if I'm driving harder, I'll also downshift and rev match, if I'm just commuting normally (DFW is slow enough in driving pace to not need to drive very hard most of the time), I simply adjust by situation, and take neutral instead of downshift to 1st. Sometimes I even skip 2nd if I'm feeling particularly lazy (we're talking 2 hours of non-stop stop and go driving to cover 60 miles in DFW on a frequent basis, so cutting a few shifts out is VERY welcome).

 

[JulesMaximus]

Hello all,

I hear sooooo many manual drivers debate over whether you should downshift to a stop or use your brakes to stop? Clutch kit vs brake pads being worn out debate as well.

Specifically, what is the proper way to stop and go city driving and driving under 30mph speed limit more or less?

Those people are idiots. Downshift if you want or be lazy if you want. If you rev match when you downshift it's not going to make any difference over the life of your car.

Personally, I love the sound and feeling of a perfect rev-matched downshift on a car or bike.

 

[MrWizzard]

Those people are idiots. Downshift if you want or be lazy if you want. If you rev match when you downshift it's not going to make any difference over the life of your car.

Personally, I love the sound and feeling of a perfect rev-matched downshift on a car or bike.

Really the only good reason to downshift is if you want to exit the corner faster. Brakes are less than a clutch period.

Downshifting feels and sounds cool, but if you are using it to stop it's just wasted money.

I still do it though, even though I know it will cost more. heh

VERY few people can perfectly match the revs so that argument about matching perfectly is moot. Look out there at all the drivers you think many of them are that good. They have enough trouble not crashing into each other. I am sure many people on here will claim to be able to perfectly match though. They do that while driving their supermodel girlfriend in their Bugattis.....

 

[MiataNC]

So what would your advice be for your little sister or brother or friend just learning for the first time how to handle manual transmission. You have to tell them something and you don't want them doing complicated or "experienced" procedures that could get them in an accident.]

I'd tell them to keep the clutch in when slowing to a stop, and at the same time down-shift into the correct gear as their speed decreases. That way if they have to get moving before coming to a complete stop, they just have to let the clutch go, and they are already in the right gear.

 

[MiataNC]

Personally, I love the sound and feeling of a perfect rev-matched downshift on a car or bike.

Nothing better!! One sure way to tell a skilled motorcyclist is one that rev matches smoothly.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Really the only good reason to downshift is if you want to exit the corner faster. Brakes are less than a clutch period.

Downshifting feels and sounds cool, but if you are using it to stop it's just wasted money.

I still do it though, even though I know it will cost more. heh

VERY few people can perfectly match the revs so that argument about matching perfectly is moot. Look out there at all the drivers you think many of them are that good. They have enough trouble not crashing into each other. I am sure many people on here will claim to be able to perfectly match though. They do that while driving their supermodel girlfriend in their Bugattis.....

No, it is not moot. The only way to get better at rev matching is to practice it. And yes, I can rev match pretty close to perfectly most of the time and I do downshift my bike nearly every gear (except first gear usually).

You are putting WAY more wear on your clutch by starting out in first gear than you ever will downshifting (unless you are really really really bad at downshifting). The things that wear clutches are riding the clutch and excessive slipping of the clutch, not downshifting. You might put some slight extra wear on the throw out bearing by changing gears more often but that will still outlast the clutch and you really should replace it when you replace the clutch anyway so it is a moot point. Arguing about wearing the clutch vs brakes is just a colossal waste of time and energy (and here I am arguing about it...)

We have some pretty smart people posting here and I don't see anyone agreeing with the notion that it is better to not downshift to save wear on the clutch.

BTW-I'm not using the transmission to stop, I use the brakes for that but engine braking will slow the vehicle and being in the correct gear is something that you should learn as part of owning a manual transmission vehicle. The only way to learn this is to do it.

My bike has a big L-twin engine with high compression so there is a lot of engine braking when I roll off the throttle and downshift. You want to learn how to be smooth downshifting, spend a few years on a Ducati.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I only downshift for a corner where I will be turning without stopping or if I am in very slippery conditions. If all I'm doing is stopping, and there is no issue of compromised traction I just put the clutch in and brake. Once the car is stopped, I am in neutral until it's time to start moving again.