dose anyone else see unions as a huge problem nowadays?

[TheoPetro]

Back around the time of The Jungle I can completely understand the need for unionized labor. Collective bargaining helped many people back then who otherwise were helpless. The unions went unchecked for a while until the taft hartley act that set some limits on the unions. This infuriated them because they felt they were above the law and that they shouldn't have restrictions because.......well because they were the union.

Fast forward to today where every state is essentially a right to work state but it is still near imposable to fire a teacher because of the union protection.

I remember some news clip where the teachers were on strike and one male teacher was very irate and screaming "PROVE TO ME IM A BAD TEACHER!...PROVE IT...YOU CANT!!!" He may or may not have been a bad teacher but the truth of the matter is there are some VERY poor teachers/professors out there who are basically unaccountable for their actions.

I am in the construction industry and worked as a plumber for ~4-5 years and worked along side many union teams. It was disgusting the work some of them did. On almost every site the non-union firms were being held up by the union ones left and right.
There was a union guy putting in a drop ceiling at one job who got 5 tiles placed in an 8 hour day. I honestly don't know what he was doing because every time I walked by he was up on his ladder measuring or something.

It seems like these kind of things are becoming more and more frequent as time goes on. There isn't motivation for teachers to do a good job because their job security is insane. In the same sense the ceiling tiler isn't motivated because regardless of how fast the job gets done he gets his 2 15s, his 30 min lunch at 11:30 on the dot, goes home to his family at 5, and gets his same pay check at the end of the week.
From a managerial POV it seems near imposable to motivate people with such restrictions. If someone isn't performing I want to know why. If its because they are a lazy ass I want them gone; in the same way I want to promote and reward the guy who's out there busing his ass day in and day out.

I was just curious if I was the only one who saw a problem with the unions of today. Any ideas on how to fix this?

 

[AFB]

There are good unions and bad unions. No need to group them all.

Edit: P&N

 

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: AFB
There are good unions and bad unions. No need to group them all.

Edit: P&N

Ive only had first hand experience with construction and teacher/professor ones.

 

[jagec]

Unions should certainly not be abolished, since it is still necessary for workers to bring some power to the bargaining table. But unions as a business, with single unions representing massive amounts of the workforce (what percentage of UAW is auto workers anymore?), and union bosses making $$$$ to drive around in fancy cars and blackmail businesses into only hiring union labor while scraping a whole lot off the top of every paycheck...not good.

I suppose AFB summarized a bit better than I did.

 

[IGBT]

..more often then not if employees choose to allow a union to represent them, the company they work for must have done something to deserve unionized labor.

 

[BarneyFife]

I work with construction unions (major highway projects) and they do excellent work. I'm also in the union and its nice to have a safety net.

 

[BoomerD]

I've worked construction for over 30 years, and was union most of that time. Are there good ones and bad ones? Yes. Do some union rules foster incompetence? Yes, but not all are bad, not all union members are lazy-louts, not all unions make it impossible to fire their bad hands.
In my trade, the bad hands get sent back to the hall. A contractor can send them back as unqualified, and if they get 3 of those, they have to test at our training facility to prove they are qualified for that piece of equipment. If you fvck up, you can get fired. The union will help you fight a wrongful termination, but only the contractor can determine whether you are suitable or qualified for his equipment.
Before you start bashing all unions, take a hard look at the perks you get on your job:
Paid vacation
Paid holidays
Paid sick leave
Social Security
Safe working conditions
8 hour work-day
Pension plans
40 hour work-week
(yeah, I know, the last 2 may not apply to some of you salaried slaves)

ALL of the above are the result of union men & women...and the list goes on and on and on...
It's been proven time after time, that unionized construction workers are more productive than non-union hands, are better trained, are safer, get the job done under budget and under time. The vast majority of cost over-runs on jobs are not the fault of the unionized workers, but change orders, changes in conditions, and in general, things out of control of the working person.

 

[SirStev0]

Teacher's unions are hated by every other union known to man. My dad is a millwright and a carpenter, my grandmother a nurse, and my brother a mason. They all truly appreciate the protection unions offer. and they all freaking hate teacher's unions. They give everything the unions stand for a bad name. I cringe every time I hear about a teacher's strike.

 

[Red Dawn]

If you are in construction, a competent tradesman and not a General Contractor you'd have to be a fool not to belong to a Union.

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: SirStev0
Teacher's unions are hated by every other union known to man. My dad is a millwright and a carpenter, my grandmother a nurse, and my brother a mason. They all truly appreciate the protection unions offer. and they all freaking hate teacher's unions. They give everything the unions stand for a bad name. I cringe every time I hear about a teacher's strike.

why?

 

[RadioHead84]

yes I see days as a serious problem...something must be done.

 

[Gibsons]

Some of the teachers unions are amazingly powerful.

 

[TheoPetro]

I dont think that abolishing unions all together is the answer. I realize we need them or things will just go back to what they were. When I see them infringing on production, innovation, and progress there is a problem.

Most manufacturing jobs are leaving the US now because companies cant afford the workers, even the good ones. I am OK with this because I see much more $ in the "thinking" industry. Some unions seems to be fighting this tooth and nail because if they lose jobs they lose power.

This is one example of what really irritates me about them. I realize they DID alot of good but it seems as though they have turned into a $ making political machine, much like the oppressive companies they were created to fight.

 

[Brainonska511]

I see the unions of today as part of the natural pendulum of society. At the moment, they are relatively strong compared to business, but at one point in history, they were extremely weak and didn't even have laws to protect the right to collectively bargain. If they become to strong, as they are today, you'll see a backlash, but then they'll get too weak again and the unions will once again rise up to protect the workers. I don't think unions hurt the American workforce in the long run, but in the short term, there could be problems if a union is too powerful for its own good.

 

[BoomerD]

They NEED to be a $ making political machine in order to lobby for protections for their employees.

The Republican Right-to-Work lobby has billions to spend, trying to force its agenda down our throats. I

t's more accurately called the Right-to-work-for-Less", because in almost every example, working men & women have had to take severe pay cuts when the RTW laws passed in their state. Funny enough, in those states, the ones who don't want to pay union dues are often the ones who come crying to the union for help if something goes wrong, if they screw up and are going to be disciplined or fired, or if the company wants to cut THEIR pay...and by law, the unions have to represent them, even though they aren't paying union members...

The corporate-controlled Republican party is no friend to working people...they just want you to think they are, so you'll send them donations, and vote for them, all the while, they kiss up to the ones with the BIG money...Big Business/BigOil.

Remember, a working person voting for a Republican, is like a Chicken voting for Colonel Sanders...

 

[TheSiege]

I start an apprenticeship in the electrical union on the 18th of this month. I far from lazy. I work 2 full time jobs right now, not because i have to, but because i want to. I took the appreticeship with the union because it gave me an opportunity to learn a trade as well as having a stable apprentice program. 30 years down the road i can retire with a 80% pension unlike 40% uncle sam is offering, if its even still there when i retire. I dont know alot about the union seeing as how i am just joining but its given me a chance to leave a couple of jobs where i am expendable and to join a trade that i can take with me anywhere.

IBEW
Local 354

 

[DaWhim]

what kind of unions? there are two - the public sector and private sector. the private sector is not a problem anymore, it has been shrinking. However, public sector is where the problem is. teacher's union actually cripple the education system (can't fire bad teachers and such).

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: TheSiege
I start an apprenticeship in the electrical union on the 18th of this month. I far from lazy. I work 2 full time jobs right now, not because i have to, but because i want to. I took the appreticeship with the union because it gave me an opportunity to learn a trade as well as having a stable apprentice program. 30 years down the road i can retire with a 80% pension unlike 40% uncle sam is offering, if its even still there when i retire. I dont know alot about the union seeing as how i am just joining but its given me a chance to leave a couple of jobs where i am expendable and to join a trade that i can take with me anywhere.

IBEW
Local 354

Congrats to ya! Being an apprentice sux for a while...everyone will treat you like you're dumber than sh*t, (which you may be for a while till you learn more and more) and often, you're the last one hired, and the first one laid off...but, hang with it, and you'll learn a valuable trade with excellent benefits. Not sure how the wage scales are in Utah, (since it's a Right-to-Work state) but I imagine they're still pretty good. (my union also represents equipment operators in Utah) Once you get your journeyman card, you can take that almost anywhere in the country and make good money. IIRC, the sparkies in the Bay area are making well over $40/hr plus the benefit package.

 

[MotionMan]

I am a lawyer and have handled various employment matters.

There was a time for unions and because of them, we have a great deal of employee protection laws. However, the time for unions as a presence in the workplace has passed. Unions should be converted from employer-specific organizations to state and national lobbies to help maintain the current laws and to proposed and support new ones.

MotionMan

 

[TheSiege]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: TheSiege
I start an apprenticeship in the electrical union on the 18th of this month. I far from lazy. I work 2 full time jobs right now, not because i have to, but because i want to. I took the appreticeship with the union because it gave me an opportunity to learn a trade as well as having a stable apprentice program. 30 years down the road i can retire with a 80% pension unlike 40% uncle sam is offering, if its even still there when i retire. I dont know alot about the union seeing as how i am just joining but its given me a chance to leave a couple of jobs where i am expendable and to join a trade that i can take with me anywhere.

IBEW
Local 354

Congrats to ya! Being an apprentice sux for a while...everyone will treat you like you're dumber than sh*t, (which you may be for a while till you learn more and more) and often, you're the last one hired, and the first one laid off...but, hang with it, and you'll learn a valuable trade with excellent benefits. Not sure how the wage scales are in Utah, (since it's a Right-to-Work state) but I imagine they're still pretty good. (my union also represents equipment operators in Utah) Once you get your journeyman card, you can take that almost anywhere in the country and make good money. IIRC, the sparkies in the Bay area are making well over $40/hr plus the benefit package.

i start off at 50% of journymen wage here which is 13.66 an hour, then i get 54% journeyment wage after 1000 hours ~6 months. And it keeps going up in like that with every 750 hours work thereafter. gunna suck for awhile. but it will be worth it in the end.
on a side note, im taking a 33k a year pay cut.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: RadioHead84
yes I see days as a serious problem...something must be done.

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/nowanddays.html

 

[BoomerD]

No thanks MM. We've fought too hard over the years to get what we've gotten. I don't think any union member would support such a thing. Take away the union's protection, and it won't be long before corporations go back to the same old bullsh*t that brought on unions in the first place. I have a pretty decent pension through my union. Totally funded by money set aside from raises we've negotiated over the years. While it's paid by the contractor on my behalf, so it's non-taxable money, that money is there because we as a group voted to take X% of our annual raise and allot it to pension, or health insurance, or...
Your plan would do away with that, and I really doubt anyone in a union would support such a thing...and since it's OUR unions, and OUR livelyhood we're talking about, IMO, no one else gets to vote on it...How can someone who's not a union member vote on my union status?

 

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: RadioHead84
yes I see days as a serious problem...something must be done.

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/nowanddays.html

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: MotionMan
I am a lawyer and have handled various employment matters.

There was a time for unions and because of them, we have a great deal of employee protection laws. However, the time for unions as a presence in the workplace has passed. Unions should be converted from employer-specific organizations to state and national lobbies to help maintain the current laws and to proposed and support new ones.

MotionMan

Dude no offense but almost everyone hates lawyers more than they hate Unions. I think its time we regulated your employment industry.

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
No thanks MM. We've fought too hard over the years to get what we've gotten. I don't think any union member would support such a thing. Take away the union's protection, and it won't be long before corporations go back to the same old bullsh*t that brought on unions in the first place. I have a pretty decent pension through my union. Totally funded by money set aside from raises we've negotiated over the years. While it's paid by the contractor on my behalf, so it's non-taxable money, that money is there because we as a group voted to take X% of our annual raise and allot it to pension, or health insurance, or...
Your plan would do away with that, and I really doubt anyone in a union would support such a thing...and since it's OUR unions, and OUR livelyhood we're talking about, IMO, no one else gets to vote on it...How can someone who's not a union member vote on my union status?

I never said that the union members would support my idea.

It is like how monopoly holders rarely want to give up their monopoly for the benefit of the general public. Nonetheless, breaking up monopolies that are being abused is still something we need to do.

MotionMan