dose anyone else see unions as a huge problem nowadays?

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
No thanks MM. We've fought too hard over the years to get what we've gotten. I don't think any union member would support such a thing. Take away the union's protection, and it won't be long before corporations go back to the same old bullsh*t that brought on unions in the first place. I have a pretty decent pension through my union. Totally funded by money set aside from raises we've negotiated over the years. While it's paid by the contractor on my behalf, so it's non-taxable money, that money is there because we as a group voted to take X% of our annual raise and allot it to pension, or health insurance, or...
Your plan would do away with that, and I really doubt anyone in a union would support such a thing...and since it's OUR unions, and OUR livelyhood we're talking about, IMO, no one else gets to vote on it...How can someone who's not a union member vote on my union status?

if your union status affects me or my company I should be able to vote on it. What my post was getting at is that some unions today create an unfair workplace which hurts the employers who really want to not screw their employees.

We pay 90% of our employees healthcare. I dont know of another place that does that around here. We are setting up benefits out the ass to increase retention rate and loyalty. We do not want to pay them $25k a year and work them 80hrs a week. In fact that is the exact opposite of what our goal is. Positive reinforcement goes so much farther than negative it isnt even funny. However, sometimes you cant avoid letting someone go. Its just how business works. If you arnt good enough or driven enough I dont want you in my company but unions make it very difficult for the fair employers to operate.

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: MotionMan
I am a lawyer and have handled various employment matters.

There was a time for unions and because of them, we have a great deal of employee protection laws. However, the time for unions as a presence in the workplace has passed. Unions should be converted from employer-specific organizations to state and national lobbies to help maintain the current laws and to proposed and support new ones.

MotionMan

Dude no offense but almost everyone hates lawyers more than they hate Unions. I think its time we regulated your employment industry.

I hate most lawyers, too. I just take solace in the fact that I know that I am just not one of those kind of lawyers.

MotionMan

 

[bctbct]

I am a supervisor in the construction trades and a member of a Union, if you're lazy or not skilled, you wont work for my company long.

 

[MotionMan]

Two words:

Ghost gang.

If you do not know what that means, consider yourself lucky.

MotionMan

 

[TheSiege]

Originally posted by: TheoPetro

Originally posted by: BoomerD
No thanks MM. We've fought too hard over the years to get what we've gotten. I don't think any union member would support such a thing. Take away the union's protection, and it won't be long before corporations go back to the same old bullsh*t that brought on unions in the first place. I have a pretty decent pension through my union. Totally funded by money set aside from raises we've negotiated over the years. While it's paid by the contractor on my behalf, so it's non-taxable money, that money is there because we as a group voted to take X% of our annual raise and allot it to pension, or health insurance, or...
Your plan would do away with that, and I really doubt anyone in a union would support such a thing...and since it's OUR unions, and OUR livelyhood we're talking about, IMO, no one else gets to vote on it...How can someone who's not a union member vote on my union status?

if your union status affects me or my company I should be able to vote on it. What my post was getting at is that some unions today create an unfair workplace which hurts the employers who really want to not screw their employees.

We pay 90% of our employees healthcare. I dont know of another place that does that around here. We are setting up benefits out the ass to increase retention rate and loyalty. We do not want to pay them $25k a year and work them 80hrs a week. In fact that is the exact opposite of what our goal is. Positive reinforcement goes so much farther than negative it isnt even funny. However, sometimes you cant avoid letting someone go. Its just how business works. If you arnt good enough or driven enough I dont want you in my company but unions make it very difficult for the fair employers to operate.

if you dont like it, join the union and change it from within

 

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: TheSiege

Originally posted by: TheoPetro

Originally posted by: BoomerD
No thanks MM. We've fought too hard over the years to get what we've gotten. I don't think any union member would support such a thing. Take away the union's protection, and it won't be long before corporations go back to the same old bullsh*t that brought on unions in the first place. I have a pretty decent pension through my union. Totally funded by money set aside from raises we've negotiated over the years. While it's paid by the contractor on my behalf, so it's non-taxable money, that money is there because we as a group voted to take X% of our annual raise and allot it to pension, or health insurance, or...
Your plan would do away with that, and I really doubt anyone in a union would support such a thing...and since it's OUR unions, and OUR livelyhood we're talking about, IMO, no one else gets to vote on it...How can someone who's not a union member vote on my union status?

if your union status affects me or my company I should be able to vote on it. What my post was getting at is that some unions today create an unfair workplace which hurts the employers who really want to not screw their employees.

We pay 90% of our employees healthcare. I dont know of another place that does that around here. We are setting up benefits out the ass to increase retention rate and loyalty. We do not want to pay them $25k a year and work them 80hrs a week. In fact that is the exact opposite of what our goal is. Positive reinforcement goes so much farther than negative it isnt even funny. However, sometimes you cant avoid letting someone go. Its just how business works. If you arnt good enough or driven enough I dont want you in my company but unions make it very difficult for the fair employers to operate.

if you dont like it, join the union and change it from within

sounds so easy doesnt it?

 

[TheSiege]

Originally posted by: TheoPetro

Originally posted by: TheSiege

Originally posted by: TheoPetro

Originally posted by: BoomerD
No thanks MM. We've fought too hard over the years to get what we've gotten. I don't think any union member would support such a thing. Take away the union's protection, and it won't be long before corporations go back to the same old bullsh*t that brought on unions in the first place. I have a pretty decent pension through my union. Totally funded by money set aside from raises we've negotiated over the years. While it's paid by the contractor on my behalf, so it's non-taxable money, that money is there because we as a group voted to take X% of our annual raise and allot it to pension, or health insurance, or...
Your plan would do away with that, and I really doubt anyone in a union would support such a thing...and since it's OUR unions, and OUR livelyhood we're talking about, IMO, no one else gets to vote on it...How can someone who's not a union member vote on my union status?

if your union status affects me or my company I should be able to vote on it. What my post was getting at is that some unions today create an unfair workplace which hurts the employers who really want to not screw their employees.

We pay 90% of our employees healthcare. I dont know of another place that does that around here. We are setting up benefits out the ass to increase retention rate and loyalty. We do not want to pay them $25k a year and work them 80hrs a week. In fact that is the exact opposite of what our goal is. Positive reinforcement goes so much farther than negative it isnt even funny. However, sometimes you cant avoid letting someone go. Its just how business works. If you arnt good enough or driven enough I dont want you in my company but unions make it very difficult for the fair employers to operate.

if you dont like it, join the union and change it from within

sounds so easy doesnt it?

It was for Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: TheSiege

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: TheSiege
I start an apprenticeship in the electrical union on the 18th of this month. I far from lazy. I work 2 full time jobs right now, not because i have to, but because i want to. I took the appreticeship with the union because it gave me an opportunity to learn a trade as well as having a stable apprentice program. 30 years down the road i can retire with a 80% pension unlike 40% uncle sam is offering, if its even still there when i retire. I dont know alot about the union seeing as how i am just joining but its given me a chance to leave a couple of jobs where i am expendable and to join a trade that i can take with me anywhere.

IBEW
Local 354

Congrats to ya! Being an apprentice sux for a while...everyone will treat you like you're dumber than sh*t, (which you may be for a while till you learn more and more) and often, you're the last one hired, and the first one laid off...but, hang with it, and you'll learn a valuable trade with excellent benefits. Not sure how the wage scales are in Utah, (since it's a Right-to-Work state) but I imagine they're still pretty good. (my union also represents equipment operators in Utah) Once you get your journeyman card, you can take that almost anywhere in the country and make good money. IIRC, the sparkies in the Bay area are making well over $40/hr plus the benefit package.

i start off at 50% of journymen wage here which is 13.66 an hour, then i get 54% journeyment wage after 1000 hours ~6 months. And it keeps going up in like that with every 750 hours work thereafter. gunna suck for awhile. but it will be worth it in the end.
on a side note, im taking a 33k a year pay cut.

lol.. i might become an apprentice in the fall. I'm tired of the suit/tie world. i'm taking a 70k paycut by being an apprentice.

Let me know how things are goin in Aug and if it's worth it?

 

[Imdmn04]

For those of you in a union, do you mind me if I ask what percentage of the paycheck goes to the union?

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: SirStev0
Teacher's unions are hated by every other union known to man. My dad is a millwright and a carpenter, my grandmother a nurse, and my brother a mason. They all truly appreciate the protection unions offer. and they all freaking hate teacher's unions. They give everything the unions stand for a bad name. I cringe every time I hear about a teacher's strike.

why?

Teacher's Unions abuse the ideas of a union. They have fairly cushy jobs that have good benefits and good security... yet they demand more and more. When they strike, your kids are forced to miss out on education. They get paid in tax dollars, which they demand more of. They are usually very vocal and when they do cause a problem everyone is effected who has kids. It really makes other unions look bad.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Imdmn04
For those of you in a union, do you mind me if I ask what percentage of the paycheck goes to the union?

Let's see...I made between $30 and $35/hour, and between &75K and $95K annually. My union dues were about $60/month...You do the math...

(PLUS, about $15/hour in benefits...great health & welfare medical, dental and optical...outstanding pension plan, about $3/hr in vacation pay, small annuity plan, etc.)

BTW, the non-union sector pays beween $15 and $20/hour with nearly 0 benefits. I always considered the difference between union scale and non-union scale to be non-union dues...

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: MotionMan
I am a lawyer and have handled various employment matters.

There was a time for unions and because of them, we have a great deal of employee protection laws. However, the time for unions as a presence in the workplace has passed. Unions should be converted from employer-specific organizations to state and national lobbies to help maintain the current laws and to proposed and support new ones.

MotionMan

..as a lawyer you should be well aware that labor laws mean nothing unless there's enforcement. And that's where unions come in. Without unions there is no advocate for employees.

 

[HombrePequeno]

I'm fine with your average union but I don't agree with closed shops. It doesn't make sense that we have laws against monopolies but care nothing about monopsonies.

 

[iliopsoas]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
No thanks MM. We've fought too hard over the years to get what we've gotten. I don't think any union member would support such a thing. Take away the union's protection, and it won't be long before corporations go back to the same old bullsh*t that brought on unions in the first place. I have a pretty decent pension through my union. Totally funded by money set aside from raises we've negotiated over the years. While it's paid by the contractor on my behalf, so it's non-taxable money, that money is there because we as a group voted to take X% of our annual raise and allot it to pension, or health insurance, or...
Your plan would do away with that, and I really doubt anyone in a union would support such a thing...and since it's OUR unions, and OUR livelyhood we're talking about, IMO, no one else gets to vote on it...How can someone who's not a union member vote on my union status?

Yeah. No one can vote on it except you union members. Uh huh. Watch the automakers go belly up in the next few years. Let's see how many union jobs will be around then.

Unions are needed to fight for fair wage and working conditions. But when it gets out of hand and renders our industries uncompetitive, the jobs will disappear.

 

[iliopsoas]

Originally posted by: TheSiege

if you dont like it, join the union and change it from within

Ha. It's like one man trying to push a train. See how far you get.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
I'm fine with your average union but I don't agree with closed shops. It doesn't make sense that we have laws against monopolies but care nothing about monopsonies.

Look at it this way...we union members pay dues that pay the wages of our business agents and office staff who negotiate contracts, enforce said contracts, and all the office work involved with the union business. Why should someone (freeloader) who doesn't want to belong to the union get the benefits of what I pay for? Why should my union have to go to bat for that freeloader if he/she gets in trouble? Why should that freeloader get the same wage and benefit package that we in the union have negotiated?
All these things happen when you have open shop contracts. For some contracts, (like public employees) I have no problem with agency shop agreements, where the employee who doesn't want to be in a union still has to pay the same amount as a union member, but is not required to join the union. That way, they have to pay for the benefits and protections negotiated by the union.

 

[imported_Imp]

I like the idea behind unions, and see the need for them.

Having said that, most unions I've encountered stink. Through knowing unionized people and the media, it seems there is very little 'grey' area. They are either useless (don't speak up, fight for the employees) or too 'effective' (strike every time a contract ends, and negotiate retarded pay increases). Currently, I'm a union member, probably have them to thank for my huge salary for such a garbage job.

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: MotionMan
I am a lawyer and have handled various employment matters.

There was a time for unions and because of them, we have a great deal of employee protection laws. However, the time for unions as a presence in the workplace has passed. Unions should be converted from employer-specific organizations to state and national lobbies to help maintain the current laws and to proposed and support new ones.

MotionMan

..as a lawyer you should be well aware that labor laws mean nothing unless there's enforcement. And that's where unions come in. Without unions there is no advocate for employees.

This may sound self-serving, but that is what labor lawyers are for.

Unions hire them all the time.

MotionMan

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
I'm fine with your average union but I don't agree with closed shops. It doesn't make sense that we have laws against monopolies but care nothing about monopsonies.

Look at it this way...we union members pay dues that pay the wages of our business agents and office staff who negotiate contracts, enforce said contracts, and all the office work involved with the union business. Why should someone (freeloader) who doesn't want to belong to the union get the benefits of what I pay for? Why should my union have to go to bat for that freeloader if he/she gets in trouble? Why should that freeloader get the same wage and benefit package that we in the union have negotiated?
All these things happen when you have open shop contracts. For some contracts, (like public employees) I have no problem with agency shop agreements, where the employee who doesn't want to be in a union still has to pay the same amount as a union member, but is not required to join the union. That way, they have to pay for the benefits and protections negotiated by the union.

Shouldn't all legal and qualified employees enjoy the same salary, benefits and protection? All things being equal (legal, qualified, experienced, etc.), what is it about joining a union that makes one employee worthy of better treatment than the next guy?

MotionMan

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: MotionMan

Shouldn't all legal and qualified employees enjoy the same salary, benefits and protection? All things being equal (legal, qualified, experienced, etc.), what is it about joining a union that makes one employee worthy of better treatment than the next guy?

MotionMan

This has nothing to do with being "worthy" and everything to do with political power. Without a union, the corporation will use its muscle to keep salaries down and minimize job security. The union allows the employees to combine their collective power and challenge the company.

An employee who isn't in the union should make the same amount as union employees, but probably won't since he is nearly powerless and the company will take advantage of that fact.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: MotionMan
I am a lawyer and have handled various employment matters.

There was a time for unions and because of them, we have a great deal of employee protection laws. However, the time for unions as a presence in the workplace has passed. Unions should be converted from employer-specific organizations to state and national lobbies to help maintain the current laws and to proposed and support new ones.

MotionMan

The time for unions has passed? It's about a balance of power between companies and employees. The company is already using its collective power against individual employees, yet when the employees band together and use their collective power against the company, you think that's wrong?

And you think that they should convert into lobbies? Lobbies embody everything that's wrong with our government, since it's their actions behind closed doors which seems to influence politicians when it's really the citizens who they should be serving.

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: MotionMan
I am a lawyer and have handled various employment matters.

There was a time for unions and because of them, we have a great deal of employee protection laws. However, the time for unions as a presence in the workplace has passed. Unions should be converted from employer-specific organizations to state and national lobbies to help maintain the current laws and to proposed and support new ones.

MotionMan

You may be a lawyer, but your lack of understanding of the subject tells me that you're not a good one.

I stopped reading after this sentence. I assumed the rest of it was just as intelligent and informed.

MotionMan

 

[91TTZ]

Let me give you an example of why they're necessary:

My mom is the president of the nurse's union at the hospital. Years ago, well before the union formed, the nurses signed contracts with the hospital stating that their salary would increase to a certain amount and would level off. The downside was that there would be no further raises, but the upside was that they'd have a steady income and didn't have to fear pay cuts.

Years pass and the hospital gets new management. The management votes that the contract which they signed is no longer valid and the nurses would have to accept pay cuts to continue employment. They knew that the hospital had plenty of money, but the management would not tell them how much they made. The nurses wanted to challenge the hospital on this (since they had a contract), but the hospital knew that no nurse has the money to challenge the power of the hospital. And they were right for a while- nobody was able to step forward and challenge them.

The nurses decided to unionize and skilled union lawyers were brought in. They were able to force the hospital to divulge the cashflow of the hospital and reveal the salary of the management. It was no surprise to the nurses when it turned out that management gave itself a hefty raise after the nurses were forced to take the pay cut. They also sued the hospital for voiding a contract. They won, and the nurses' salary was restored.

Without joining together and unionizing, no individual nurse would have been able to afford the skilled legal wrangling that took place. But together, they could afford powerful players in the legal game, people whose careers are devoted to this sort of thing.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: MotionMan

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: MotionMan
I am a lawyer and have handled various employment matters.

There was a time for unions and because of them, we have a great deal of employee protection laws. However, the time for unions as a presence in the workplace has passed. Unions should be converted from employer-specific organizations to state and national lobbies to help maintain the current laws and to proposed and support new ones.

MotionMan

You may be a lawyer, but your lack of understanding of the subject tells me that you're not a good one.

I stopped reading after this sentence. I assumed the rest of it was just as intelligent and informed.

MotionMan

I removed the offending line. Now feel free to address my post.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If you are in construction, a competent tradesman and not a General Contractor you'd have to be a fool not to belong to a Union.

Tell that to my guys who are better paid, have the opportunity to work many more hours, get year end bonuses (tied to their safety records) and are never sent home for lack of work.

Our union competitors on the other hand can ONLY get jobs that require union labor. They simply can not compete with us on public bids. There is a reason that the union contractors (that I compete against) are always 20-30% higher in cost when we bid against them. We pay our men more and benefits are about the same so its not that.

This isn't just a single competitor either. It is a total of three of them. They do mostly government work and every once in a while an Architect will throw them a bone but in my opinion its only because the architect stands to make more money.