Doom 3 piracy

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: Smilin

Your post illustrates the EXACT thing I tried to convey - yes the ARE the same thing. Stealing is stealing. The problem is that people think they are somehow different. Your drunk driving illustration does nothing. One is a misdemeanor, one is a felony.

How about:
Fred: "Don't know if it will run, don't know if I'll like it, don't know if it's worth $50"
Me: STFU Fred, you are a goat ball licker. Buy a copy, wait for the demo or just shut your pie hole because I paid my money and I would like to get back to playing if you don't mind. I'll call you a wambulance when I get to a good save point. B1tch.

And your post illustrates the EXACT same thing I pointed out. No one can be charged with THEFT for downloading warez, mp3s, movie etc. IT IS NOT THEFT. It is "piracy" or copyright infringement. It is ILLEGAL, yes, BUT IT IS NOT THEFT! I fail to understand how people cannot understand this. If they were the same thing, we would not have totally different laws for dealing with them. You don't have to condone pirating, just fvcking admit that you are wrong about the two being the same! :|

And also, to show that you are misinformed on other things as well, a DUI/DWI is a misdemeanor as well - until you reach like the 3rd or 4th offense.

Wow - looks like you *don't* know everything, despite your attitude. Try acting civil sometime. Jeez.. :roll:

It annoys me when people compare DUI to software piracy. Such sensationalism. DUI can kill someone, piracy can't.

I've gotta say I fully agree with cKGunslinger on this one. Piracy should not be compared to stealing cars or breaking into houses. Nothing physical is being stolen, and the victim of the crime will never know that it even took place.

I am by no means saying that piracy is somehow justified; I just want to point out that alot of you guys take it way too far.

It's like if you write a great paper for a class at school and someone else turns your paper in with their name before you can turn yours in.

 

[HermDogg]

This thread has the worst.. analogies... ever!

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
It's like if you write a great paper for a class at school and someone else turns your paper in with their name before you can turn yours in.

One person pirating a single piece of software could never affect a software developer to the extent that your analogy suggests.

I think that you guys should quit comparing software piracy to other crimes.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
It's like if you write a great paper for a class at school and someone else turns your paper in with their name before you can turn yours in.

One person pirating a single piece of software could never affect a software developer to the extent that your analogy suggests.

I think that you guys should quit comparing software piracy to other crimes.

My example is an example of copyright infringement. In both the pirate using the software he did not purchase, and the moron that takes someone else's paper examples, the copyright holder is not getting the credit he expects from his work.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
It's like if you write a great paper for a class at school and someone else turns your paper in with their name before you can turn yours in.

One person pirating a single piece of software could never affect a software developer to the extent that your analogy suggests.

I think that you guys should quit comparing software piracy to other crimes.

My example is an example of copyright infringement. In both the pirate using the software he did not purchase, and the moron that takes someone else's paper examples, the copyright holder is not getting the credit he expects from his work.

I see what you're getting at with the intellectual property bit, but I still find what you're saying extreme.

If you hand in someone else's essay as your own, both yourself and the original author will get busted by the professor. If, on the other hand, you download a copy of Doom3, the developer won't even be aware of the situation. You could say that they lost $50 in the deal, but that's assuming that the guy who pirated it had $50 and intended to purchase it in the first place. Even if they were to lose the $50, compare that with the $200 million they will probably rake in with this game. $50 is 0.000025% of $200,000,000. Are you saying that getting kicked out of university is comparable to losing 0.000025% of your income?

 

[chsh1ca]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
If you hand in someone else's essay as your own, both yourself and the original author will get busted by the professor. If, on the other hand, you download a copy of Doom3, the developer won't even be aware of the situation.

Not always true. In this case, the developer is aware there are people pirating the software, but who the specific individuals are is another story.

You could say that they lost $50 in the deal, but that's assuming that the guy who pirated it had $50 and intended to purchase it in the first place.

It doesn't matter now does it? They made the game, it is not another person's right to go ahead and steal copies -- whether for personal use or not -- and then get free use of it.

Even if they were to lose the $50, compare that with the $200 million they will probably rake in with this game. $50 is 0.000025% of $200,000,000.

I suppose it's okay to just start stealing pop cans out of a vending machine then right? I mean, what harm can be done, it's only one can, right? You're pretty naive to think it's only 1 copy out there that isn't being sold because of piracy.
Your equation also leaves out other details such as the number of pirated copies which could be in the thousands easily by now, maybe tens of thousands. Let's say there's only 2500 copies of Doom3 out there that have been pirated. 2500 x $50 = $125000 (or 0.1% of total income from sales). At what percentage do you say it's a bad thing? 1%? 10%? Who are you to decide what is substantial enough to warrant making an issue of?
There's also other things you haven't taken into account, like unpaid sales taxes, which go to helping your community do things like build schools, repair roads, etc.. There's more to piracy than just bilking some megacorp outta $50.

Sure, piracy isn't up there with murder, or wreckless endangerment, or probably even car theft, but it is a crime nontheless, and the point of having laws against crimes is that it hurts people -- be it individually or not.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
It's like if you write a great paper for a class at school and someone else turns your paper in with their name before you can turn yours in.

One person pirating a single piece of software could never affect a software developer to the extent that your analogy suggests.

I think that you guys should quit comparing software piracy to other crimes.

My example is an example of copyright infringement. In both the pirate using the software he did not purchase, and the moron that takes someone else's paper examples, the copyright holder is not getting the credit he expects from his work.

I see what you're getting at with the intellectual property bit, but I still find what you're saying extreme.

If you hand in someone else's essay as your own, both yourself and the original author will get busted by the professor. If, on the other hand, you download a copy of Doom3, the developer won't even be aware of the situation. You could say that they lost $50 in the deal, but that's assuming that the guy who pirated it had $50 and intended to purchase it in the first place. Even if they were to lose the $50, compare that with the $200 million they will probably rake in with this game. $50 is 0.000025% of $200,000,000. Are you saying that getting kicked out of university is comparable to losing 0.000025% of your income?

I am saying that the disrespect involved in ignoring the copyrights of one work is equal to the disrespect involved in ignoring the copyrights on another work. The consequences and circumstances mean little to me. To me it is black and white.

 

[DGath]

I can't believe you people are still discussing this thread seriously. It's like debating religion or politics, does anyone here actually think they can change someone elses mind? And if I see one more absurd analogy that has absolutely nothing to do with the real scenario of piracy, I'm going to flip. Actually I won't, becuase I'm not even going to bother coming back to read this thread any further. You all are wasting your time, you have better things to do, like play Doom 3.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: chsh1ca

Originally posted by: SickBeast
If you hand in someone else's essay as your own, both yourself and the original author will get busted by the professor. If, on the other hand, you download a copy of Doom3, the developer won't even be aware of the situation.

Not always true. In this case, the developer is aware there are people pirating the software, but who the specific individuals are is another story.

You could say that they lost $50 in the deal, but that's assuming that the guy who pirated it had $50 and intended to purchase it in the first place.

It doesn't matter now does it? They made the game, it is not another person's right to go ahead and steal copies -- whether for personal use or not -- and then get free use of it.

Even if they were to lose the $50, compare that with the $200 million they will probably rake in with this game. $50 is 0.000025% of $200,000,000.

I suppose it's okay to just start stealing pop cans out of a vending machine then right? I mean, what harm can be done, it's only one can, right? You're pretty naive to think it's only 1 copy out there that isn't being sold because of piracy.
Your equation also leaves out other details such as the number of pirated copies which could be in the thousands easily by now, maybe tens of thousands. Let's say there's only 2500 copies of Doom3 out there that have been pirated. 2500 x $50 = $125000 (or 0.1% of total income from sales). At what percentage do you say it's a bad thing? 1%? 10%? Who are you to decide what is substantial enough to warrant making an issue of?
There's also other things you haven't taken into account, like unpaid sales taxes, which go to helping your community do things like build schools, repair roads, etc.. There's more to piracy than just bilking some megacorp outta $50.

Sure, piracy isn't up there with murder, or wreckless endangerment, or probably even car theft, but it is a crime nontheless, and the point of having laws against crimes is that it hurts people -- be it individually or not.

So, how do you feel about someone downloading it, and then buying it once it becomes available, if for no other reason than wanting it at the same time as you fellas in the US get it?
Illegal, yes, morally wrong? Not IMO. No harm is done to anyone, person in question gets to play the game, good for him/her.
ID software gets they money they asked for the game, good for them.
Everybody wins, simple.

Me, in this particular case, I'm waiting it out since coming home with a box containing a game I've awaited for a long time gives me that warm fuzzy feeling 🙂 If it wasn't such a game, I'd probably download it while waiting for the official release, which happens to be nearly two damn weeks after the US release :roll:
That's one thing I can't fathom, why do companies release movies/games in different parts of the world at different time? You don't exactly need a PhD to understand that it will increase piracy since people will want it, and when there's a will, there's a way.

Oh and to people saying copying a game is the same as stealing something, that moronic argument holds no logical ground whatsoever.
n0c's example is actually a fairly good one, however I'd replace getting kicked out of the university with simply getting a lower grade on said paper.
After all, someone copying Doom 3 isn't going to send John Carmack out to live on the street, they're "merely" going to reduce his income.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: brigden

Originally posted by: eklass
without warez i would never have bough such games at bf1942 and RtCW

it pisses me off that someone takes to the Software forum to bitch and moan about piracy. they complain about the sales lost, but never mention a damn thing about sales gained. everyone on this forum know what piracy is and its illegality (in the US at least). if you don't like it, fine: don't do it. if however, you are a person like myself that would actually like to try a game before buying it (remember, there is no doom3 demo), then maybe you should STFU and mind your own

edit: and for those of you calling foul on this school of thought, i'm glad i'm protecting myself from the inflated prices of crappy games. maybe if games were a bit more reasonable in price, i'd be more apt to buy them

What do you think a reasonable price for a game is? (Keep in mind Doom 3 took years and cost between $15-20 million Dollars to produce.)

I can't walk into a movie, watch it, and pay them only if I liked it. What makes you think you have the right to try before you buy?

Guys, I'm not trying to play the moral or ethical card here, but a spade is a spade is a spade. If you want it, but don't want to pay for it, just download it. Stop justifying your actions with pure BS.

Interesting. I bought a 16 ga porter cable nail gun at homedepot which did'nt have a positive lock to my surprise so I returned it and got a senco that did. That was certainly "Buy" and "try" and return for every red cent back. The product failed to meet my expectations and it's perfectly legal and store policy to return.

What makes a game any different? The laws we write? Well then if that's the case they obviously need to be changed to protect the consumer from getting a garbage product and from being victims unscupulous advertising. Where do I sign?

Obviously here, "morals" are a legal construct totally pulled out of someones behind to protect companies profits and victimize consumers for some unknown random product since you can't "try" it. Hopefully it turns out well for the consumer, but screw em if it does'nt right, the company made its profit.


Legally, today, it's already theft, we all know that.

Morally, if someone never buys the game after X time, I agree, then it's theft.

 

[pookie69]

Originally posted by: HermDogg
This thread has the worst.. analogies... ever!

LOL 😀

>>> indeed - analogy hell.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: chsh1ca

Even if they were to lose the $50, compare that with the $200 million they will probably rake in with this game. $50 is 0.000025% of $200,000,000.

I suppose it's okay to just start stealing pop cans out of a vending machine then right? I mean, what harm can be done, it's only one can, right? You're pretty naive to think it's only 1 copy out there that isn't being sold because of piracy.

I agree with most of your post, chsh1ca, but I wanted to clarify this. I compared downloading a single copy of Doom3 with other crimes because that was the debate I was having with n0cmonkey and some other people. As an individual I don't see why you would download more than one copy of Doom3.

I realize that there will be thousands of copies of this game stolen, and that it is a huge problem.

 

[PatboyX]

Originally posted by: THUGSROOK
the problem wouldnt be this bad if theyd freakin offer a demo!

geez

i looked for one last night and was sad. i want to try it out on my machine...but im not a big fan of FPS.
maybe its becuase of what happened the last time they released a few demos on a cd...

 

[PatboyX]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
It's like if you write a great paper for a class at school and someone else turns your paper in with their name before you can turn yours in.

One person pirating a single piece of software could never affect a software developer to the extent that your analogy suggests.

I think that you guys should quit comparing software piracy to other crimes.

My example is an example of copyright infringement. In both the pirate using the software he did not purchase, and the moron that takes someone else's paper examples, the copyright holder is not getting the credit he expects from his work.

but in your example, you are instantly being forced to do more work.
i guess its sort of applies...in the long run.
but why not just say "pirating is pirating and a crime. its not a lot like other crimes, so people have a hard time dealing with it."

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: HermDogg
This thread has the worst.. analogies... ever!

I agree! And I"ll add one!

How about this: Downloading Doom 3 is like sneaking into an outdoor concert without paying, and sitting in your own chair in the back, not bothering anyone. Maybe you'll buy a CD or t-shirt. Maybe you'll love the concert so much, you'll buy a ticket for the next performance and tell all your friends to do the same. Maybe you'll hate it and duck out early. Maybe you'll just enjoy it and leave, giving the band nothing. Who knows?

Illegal? Yes. Wrong? Yes. The same thing as breaking into someone's house and stealing their money? NO!

 

[The Green Bean]

im gonna download Doom3, because there aint a way possible that I can purchase. It aint even "illegal" here. GOGO Pakistan 😛

 

[oldman420]

and as for the "casual user" that person will most likely not have acces to warez sites at all.
anyone that can dl from a warez site KNOWS wheather the software will run on his or her machine or not.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: oldman420
and as for the "casual user" that person will most likely not have acces to warez sites at all.
anyone that can dl from a warez site KNOWS wheather the software will run on his or her machine or not.

Yeah, but even the biggest n00b can type "Doom3" into Kazaa, or Bearshare, or whatever the lusers use nowadays. Lots of "casual gamers" know about suprnova. I know 3 people at work who downloaded the game at home, but can't get it to run. After getting them to get me a hardware list, 2 of them had onboard Intel graphics, and the other had an original TNT card! So I don't think what you said is universal, by any means.

 

[Regs]

We shouldnt even be talking about this. This thread should of been locked 3 pages ago. This is promting piracy and mod's should of been quicker on the gun.

 

[chsh1ca]

Originally posted by: Sunner
So, how do you feel about someone downloading it, and then buying it once it becomes available, if for no other reason than wanting it at the same time as you fellas in the US get it?

Firstly, I'm not in the US, I share your pain, our release dates aren't as far behind as overseas, but Doom3 didn't hit shelves here until yesterday morning. Secondly, I still think it's wrong, but I understand that the paying for it later would probably make it a lesser crime in court.

Illegal, yes, morally wrong? Not IMO. No harm is done to anyone, person in question gets to play the game, good for him/her.
ID software gets they money they asked for the game, good for them.

On the grounds of morally wrong, probably not, since you do give it to them eventually, however, this is a legal discussion.

Me, in this particular case, I'm waiting it out since coming home with a box containing a game I've awaited for a long time gives me that warm fuzzy feeling 🙂 If it wasn't such a game, I'd probably download it while waiting for the official release, which happens to be nearly two damn weeks after the US release :roll:

Haha, I know that warm fuzzy feeling. It's that feeling of not being able to wait to turn the cash you just handed over into hours and hours of fragfesting entertainment. 😀

That's one thing I can't fathom, why do companies release movies/games in different parts of the world at different time? You don't exactly need a PhD to understand that it will increase piracy since people will want it, and when there's a will, there's a way.

There is likely some kind of logistics at play here, but I get what you mean. The longer a section of society doesn't have access to something, the more likely said section might pirate it. That being said, consider the rampant piracy in the poorer countries in South America and the Philippines.

Oh and to people saying copying a game is the same as stealing something, that moronic argument holds no logical ground whatsoever.

The fundamental difference between theft and piracy is that with theft, the owner is deprived of the work, whereas with piracy, the owner maintains the work, but an exact duplicate is created. Both legally and morally they are similar when compared to other crimes -- getting/taking something that isn't yours.

 

[GrumpyMan]

I bought my copy on Tuesday (which I really did for $54.95) and I download it today Thursday from some warez site. Is that stealing too?

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: GrumpyMan
I bought my copy on Tuesday (which I really did for $54.95) and I download it today Thursday from some warez site. Is that stealing too?

I'm not sure. You're legally allowed to make yourself a backup copy of the game AFAIK. I'm not sure where downloading fits into that. My guess is that it's still illegal. You would have to rip and hack the game yourself for it to be a "backup copy", but then you would be convicted of hacking. 🙂

 

[AnandTech Moderator]

This has gone far enough. Piracy is illegal, and it is wrong. One person's illegal act does not justify an illegal act by anyone else, and there is no other justification for stealing.

If you do not like the rules, as a citizen, you have the right to use the legislative and judicial systems to change them. Until then, anyone advocating, or, worse, aiding and abetting, piracy should find another forum for such activities.

AnandTech Moderator