Wow, I can't believe a topic this long has formed over an argument about semantics. All of you bitching who should or shouldn't be called engineers, shouldn't be engineers yourselves. We're the type of people that do stuff, not complain about trivial things.
Originally posted by: Queasy
Heh, if you think "Software Engineer" is funny then you'll love the folks that call themselves "Quality Assurance Engineers".
Quality Assurance Engineers in software development are also called Software Test Engineers. They are a fairly important part of the software development cycle. There are usually a lot of errors that aren't caught by developers, and QA people have to test to ensure a program follows the specs.
winner!!!
my comp sci engineering program at tOSU was accredited by the ABET. hence I am an engineer by their standards... tOSU actually encorporated many eningeering classes from other engineering programs into our program...
edit... this means as a software engineer i get to take the FE and PE exams if i wish
Phoenix86
Lifer
- May 21, 2003
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Looking up engineering, I don't see how some level of code monkeys aren't engineers. Not all of them, but at the higher levels, they would fit the definition.
Engineers use their knowledge of science, mathematics, and appropriate experience to find suitable solutions to a problem. Creating an appropriate mathematical model of a problem allows them to analyze it (perhaps, but rarely, definitively), and to test potential solutions. Usually multiple reasonable solutions exist, so engineers must evaluate the different design choices on their merits and choose the solution that best meets their requirements.
Engineers typically attempt to predict how well their designs will perform to their specifications prior to full-scale production. They use, among other things: prototypes, scale models, simulations, destructive tests, nondestructive tests, and stress tests. Testing ensures that products will perform as expected. Engineers as professionals take seriously their responsibility to produce designs that will perform as expected and will not cause unintended harm to the public at large. Engineers typically include a factor of safety in their designs to reduce the risk of unexpected failure. However, the larger the safety factor, the less efficient the design may be.
Not sure sure about that last part for software engineers.
Engineers use their knowledge of science, mathematics, and appropriate experience to find suitable solutions to a problem. Creating an appropriate mathematical model of a problem allows them to analyze it (perhaps, but rarely, definitively), and to test potential solutions. Usually multiple reasonable solutions exist, so engineers must evaluate the different design choices on their merits and choose the solution that best meets their requirements.
Engineers typically attempt to predict how well their designs will perform to their specifications prior to full-scale production. They use, among other things: prototypes, scale models, simulations, destructive tests, nondestructive tests, and stress tests. Testing ensures that products will perform as expected. Engineers as professionals take seriously their responsibility to produce designs that will perform as expected and will not cause unintended harm to the public at large. Engineers typically include a factor of safety in their designs to reduce the risk of unexpected failure. However, the larger the safety factor, the less efficient the design may be.
Not sure sure about that last part for software engineers.
sao123
Lifer
- May 27, 2002
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Originally posted by: Phoenix86
Looking up engineering, I don't see how some level of code monkeys aren't engineers. Not all of them, but at the higher levels, they would fit the definition.
Engineers use their knowledge of science, mathematics, and appropriate experience to find suitable solutions to a problem. Creating an appropriate mathematical model of a problem allows them to analyze it (perhaps, but rarely, definitively), and to test potential solutions. Usually multiple reasonable solutions exist, so engineers must evaluate the different design choices on their merits and choose the solution that best meets their requirements.
Engineers typically attempt to predict how well their designs will perform to their specifications prior to full-scale production. They use, among other things: prototypes, scale models, simulations, destructive tests, nondestructive tests, and stress tests. Testing ensures that products will perform as expected. Engineers as professionals take seriously their responsibility to produce designs that will perform as expected and will not cause unintended harm to the public at large. Engineers typically include a factor of safety in their designs to reduce the risk of unexpected failure. However, the larger the safety factor, the less efficient the design may be.
Not sure sure about that last part for software engineers.
Agreed...
1) i think most of us are talking about america, not whatever country you're talking about
2) is there any reason why we should use your definition as opposed to the one found in dictionaries?
eits
Lifer
I am sorry but you are confusing IT and Software Engineers. Nobody tought me how to build a computer or how to use a computer in school.
It may depend on school but I had to take more advanced math classes than any EE or ME. Towards the end if I had taken 2/3 more math classes I could have been a double major (Math & CS) and isn't engineering all about math ?
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
You wouldn't believe how many sanitation engineers are bothered by the same statement about them.
The reason why most people don't consider computer science as engineering is because it simply hasn't been around as long as the more "traditional" forms of engineering.
The wikipedia definition for Engineering is correct:
Phoenix86
Lifer
- May 21, 2003
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<4th grader>
Yes it is.
</4th grader>
'splain, please, see above definition.
edit: you folks seriously don't think software errors can cause harm? WTF, am I on the right board??????????? This is AT, where people have some clue about computer, right?
Software runs: Stock markets, internet, jet planes, rockets, nuclear freaking reactors, etc.
Yeah, no risks there. :roll: C'mon folks, don't be ignorant on purpose.
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: Phoenix86
Looking up engineering, I don't see how some level of code monkeys aren't engineers. Not all of them, but at the higher levels, they would fit the definition.
Engineers use their knowledge of science, mathematics, and appropriate experience to find suitable solutions to a problem. Creating an appropriate mathematical model of a problem allows them to analyze it (perhaps, but rarely, definitively), and to test potential solutions. Usually multiple reasonable solutions exist, so engineers must evaluate the different design choices on their merits and choose the solution that best meets their requirements.
Engineers typically attempt to predict how well their designs will perform to their specifications prior to full-scale production. They use, among other things: prototypes, scale models, simulations, destructive tests, nondestructive tests, and stress tests. Testing ensures that products will perform as expected. Engineers as professionals take seriously their responsibility to produce designs that will perform as expected and will not cause unintended harm to the public at large. Engineers typically include a factor of safety in their designs to reduce the risk of unexpected failure. However, the larger the safety factor, the less efficient the design may be.
Not sure sure about that last part for software engineers.
Agreed...
By these definition a Statistician is an Engineer. They use mathematical models along with science and technology to solve problems. They even create tools for engineers and programers such as mathematical algorithms.
Computer Engineers are actual engineers... CIS/CS/SE's aren't.
I've been in CS, then changed to Computer Engineering, and now found and love Biomedical Engineering. I can tell you that programming is NOT engineering. Computer Engineering IS Engineering with a side of programming.
I've been in CS, then changed to Computer Engineering, and now found and love Biomedical Engineering. I can tell you that programming is NOT engineering. Computer Engineering IS Engineering with a side of programming.
Phoenix86
Lifer
- May 21, 2003
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I fail to see the problem.
If something = the definition it is what it is. That's why there are definitions. You are proposing 1 != 1, or blue colored things aren't blue because the definition of blue is incorrect.
In other words your argument has no point. You can say the definition isn't good (say why, and perhaps provide an alternate definition), but that's not what you are saying at all. I just grabbed the definition off of wiki for ease.
Why? see above.
sao123
Lifer
- May 27, 2002
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Originally posted by: DVK916
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: Phoenix86
Looking up engineering, I don't see how some level of code monkeys aren't engineers. Not all of them, but at the higher levels, they would fit the definition.
Engineers use their knowledge of science, mathematics, and appropriate experience to find suitable solutions to a problem. Creating an appropriate mathematical model of a problem allows them to analyze it (perhaps, but rarely, definitively), and to test potential solutions. Usually multiple reasonable solutions exist, so engineers must evaluate the different design choices on their merits and choose the solution that best meets their requirements.
Engineers typically attempt to predict how well their designs will perform to their specifications prior to full-scale production. They use, among other things: prototypes, scale models, simulations, destructive tests, nondestructive tests, and stress tests. Testing ensures that products will perform as expected. Engineers as professionals take seriously their responsibility to produce designs that will perform as expected and will not cause unintended harm to the public at large. Engineers typically include a factor of safety in their designs to reduce the risk of unexpected failure. However, the larger the safety factor, the less efficient the design may be.
Not sure sure about that last part for software engineers.
Agreed...
By these definition a Statistician is an Engineer. They use mathematical models along with science and technology to solve problems. They even create tools for engineers and programers such as mathematical algorithms.
Ok fine... lets use the ABET criteria...
Engineering programs must demonstrate that their students attain:
(a) an ability to apply knowledge of mathematics, science, and engineering
(b) an ability to design and conduct experiments, as well as to analyze and interpret data
(c) an ability to design a system, component, or process to meet desired needs within realistic constraints such as economic, environmental, social, political, ethical, health and safety, manufacturability, and sustainability
(d) an ability to function on multi-disciplinary teams
(e) an ability to identify, formulate, and solve engineering problems
(f) an understanding of professional and ethical responsibility
(g) an ability to communicate effectively
(h) the broad education necessary to understand the impact of engineering solutions in a global, economic, environmental, and societal context
(i) a recognition of the need for, and an ability to engage in life-long learning
(j) a knowledge of contemporary issues
(k) an ability to use the techniques, skills, and modern engineering tools necessary for
engineering practice.
PROGRAM CRITERIA FOR
SOFTWARE
AND SIMILARLY NAMED ENGINEERING PROGRAMS
The curriculum must provide both breadth and depth across the range of engineering and computer science topics implied by the title and objectives of the program.
The program must demonstrate that graduates have: the ability to analyze, design, verify, validate, implement, apply, and maintain software systems; the ability to appropriately apply discrete mathematics, probability and statistics, and relevant topics in computer science and supporting disciplines to complex software systems; and the ability to work in one or more significant application domains.
Since ABET specifically can and does regularly software engineering as engineering... your arguement still holds as much water as a bucket with a hole driled through the bottom. And i dont see any reason why a statistian cant be considered an engineer.
Actually no... its management's fault for the Challenger blowing up. They are the ones that told NASA the shuttle was safe to launch while the engineers were saying it wasn't.
IIRC, Microsoft MCSE are allow to call themselves engineers and the Canadian Council for Professional Engineers lost in court on this issue, however they still threaten individual at the provincial level because the court decision invalidated, rendered the CCPE ?Godly? authority.
Many older/retired engineers that I have talked to think that the CCPE should step down, because the CCPE are so out of touch with reality.
1) don't see where it says it is illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you're accredited, but you're welcome to point it out, i didn't look that hard
2) care to summarize?
I started off at Drexel as a Mech E, and after 4 years tranferred to Info Sys after working at a few jobs realizing that I didn't care how heat transferred from two objects. I don't consider what I do Engineering. I make more money now than I would have as an Engineer, but I do like the title, even if I think it sounds corny to call computer folks "System Engineer" or "Server Engineer." Just because it sounds cool doesn't make it right.
I know that Drexel merged the Comp Sci department into the Engineering department...talk about outrage!
I know that Drexel merged the Comp Sci department into the Engineering department...talk about outrage!
Speaking as someone who has a BS and PhD from engineering programs accredited by ABET-
Most people who work in computer science are what I would consider engineers. These distinctions of which many of you speak only exist in a person's mind that is attached to a body with a chip on its shoulder.
My gut instinct was to say that ?engineering? requires a melding of disciplines for complex problem solving along with an BS degree minimum, but that's just me wanting engineering to be more exclusive and cooler : )
-Reader
Most people who work in computer science are what I would consider engineers. These distinctions of which many of you speak only exist in a person's mind that is attached to a body with a chip on its shoulder.
My gut instinct was to say that ?engineering? requires a melding of disciplines for complex problem solving along with an BS degree minimum, but that's just me wanting engineering to be more exclusive and cooler : )
-Reader
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