Don't you hate it when a mechanical engineer tells you that computer programming is NOT engineering?

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
You cannot build a program without knowing the engineering behind it. I can see programmers making an engineering application more user friendly, but all the math behind it is done by engineers.

Granted, but an engineer wouldn't have a clue how to program physics. It's not really as simple as just plugging in formulas.

That is correct, engineers don't know jack about physics. No, seriously; I'm going to a school with a great engineering program (top 25 in the nation). But the physics requirements for all of the engineering degrees are a JOKE! I was an engineering major and switched to physics. I took an intro engineering course and the professor (who teaches upper division civil engineering courses and grad students) couldn't even figure out how to draw a free-body diagram for a bicycle wheel.

Engineers are a step above the standard 'general education science' students, but they don't go past anything but beginning stuff. They concentrate more on, you know, ENGINEERING rather than physics.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: rsd
By the way this thread is simply for you "true" engineer college tools to feel better about yourself while the comp sci kids are fvcking your girlfriends

SHENS! Engineers don't fvck girls and comp sci kids are all virgins. Double contradiction!

 

[rsd]

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle

Originally posted by: rsd
By the way this thread is simply for you "true" engineer college tools to feel better about yourself while the comp sci kids are fvcking your girlfriends

Comp sci students are far too busy telling anyone who will listen (and even those who won't) that FreeBSD is the best OS in the world because Linux has become far too mainstream and anyone that doesn't know how to write a 300 line script to perform some menial task is a complete tool.

True many do that too But I don't think all engineers are known for their enlightening conversations either.

 

[rsd]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: rsd
By the way this thread is simply for you "true" engineer college tools to feel better about yourself while the comp sci kids are fvcking your girlfriends

SHENS! Engineers don't fvck girls and comp sci kids are all virgins. Double contradiction!

Darn you caught me, I was hoping it would short circuit the minds of the engineers reading this genius thread.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Originally posted by: PHiuR
i hate it when people think im a girl.

Perhaps you were missengineered

 

[agnitrate]

This thread is going to get out of hand.

On one side you have the engineers who would refuse to be associated with the lowly computer science students after they have to toil so much in their engineering programs and take their certification tests to earn their title engineer.

The computer science students have no idea about how to build something to account for thermodynamics, statics, time, or even the physical nature of the world in general! All they do all day is sit around and code their scripts and make the software that my profession uses day in and day out.

Making software takes absolutely no ingenuity whatsoever because I am able to use my CAD programs or code my circuits or use my chemical structure software or analyze the stresses on my building. Certainly I'm the real engineer.



On the other hand, you're going to get the elitist software engineers (many actually just software developers, although they certainly wouldn't admit it) who think that many engineers don't respect the amount of work that they put in to do their job.

Don't you engineers realize how difficult it is to code a large piece of software? You don't just think of an idea and start plunking away at the keyboard! A true software engineer spends as much time as a real engineer during the planning phase of the development cycle. Everything is documented for future reference just like in the traditional engineering disciplines and only after my team has made every possible design decision do we actually begin to code. Of course all the tools that I use to do my work are care of my favorite engineers of many different fields.

We are just as liable as traditional engineers for our work. Many states are requiring software engineers to become licensed as well (i.e. Texas) and the code that we write can decide life or death situations just as much as engineering (software running pacemakers, commercial airliners, warheads). Certainly I'm a real engineer. When will I get the respect I deserve?



I know as little about traditional engineering as I'm sure many traditional engineers do about software engineering. Hell, I don't even know that much about software engineering. I do know that I respect people in both professions, provided they have earned it.

Am I going to respect somebody who calls himself a 'software engineer' when all he does it code up shell scripts? No. Am I going to respect an audio engineer when all he does is play with sound waves? No.

Why don't we all act like adults and admit that there are respectable people in both professions that make it what it is and losers in both professions that give each a bad name? I'm done with this thread.

 

[ManSnake]

Software Engineer does not equate to Programmer, apples and oranges.

 

[Penth]

Good topic. I don't know where all these people get the idea that engineering has to deal with physical things.

m-w.com

Engineer: 3 a : a designer or builder of engines b : a person who is trained in or follows as a profession a branch of engineering c : a person who carries through an enterprise by skillful or artful contrivance

Enigineering: 1 : to lay out, construct, or manage as an engineer
2 a : to contrive or plan out usually with more or less subtle skill and craft b : to guide the course of


Engineer (transitive verb): 1 : to lay out, construct, or manage as an engineer
2 a : to contrive or plan out usually with more or less subtle skill and craft b : to guide the course of

You don't have to go to 6 years of school to engineer something. If you engineer things regularly, you are an engineer.

 

[herm0016]

engineer is such a genral term, noone here relizes this. a car mechanic can be an engineer when he is making a custom bracket to hold some other part of the car together. we just need to step back and look at this for a min. . . the word that goes with engineer is what really matters, like mechanical, or computer, or software, or chemical or civil, or aerospace, or. . . .

and to the guy that says engineers dont know physics, what do you think statics, thermodynamics, dynamics, and most of our other classes are dealing with? they are dealing with the way do describe how things work in the physical world, this is a topic in physics known as mechanics and fluids. we need to think about the blanket statements we are making. i happen to be an engineer that knows more about string and time theroys (and how they really work) than some of my physics major friends.

 

[BlueWeasel]

Originally posted by: Dedpuhl
I think the defining characteristic of being a "real" engineer is the ability to become a (licensed) Professional Engineer through the NCEES. Civil Engineers, to make the most of the degree, need a license in order to stamp/certify plans.

Software Programmers are very important due to our current dependence on computers and technology; however, I think they toss around the "engineer" title to make themselves feel more important. (you're an engineer? wow.....you're a programmer? that's nice).

Please don't take that the wrong way my programmer and CS buddies.


<--- Civil Engineer (in training). I take the PE exam in October.

Good luck. I took the PE in October 2005 and found out I failed the last week in December. What a way to end the year.

I appealed my results, and am waiting on the results of a manual regrade.

My advice -- don't take structural in the afternoon.

 

[edro]

I'm an engineer!

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: OdiN
Well...it's not.

It is.

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Originally posted by: LostWanderer
When you take 5-6 years of multidisciplinary engineering courses, sit for an 8-hour comprehensive everything you ever saw internship test, work for the man for 4 years, sit for another 8-hour comprehensive everything you know test that has < 50% passing rate, pass all that and become licensed, live with the daily threat of lawsuits for anything you sign your name to, while commiting yourself to putting the public welfare and safety above your own personal gain, then you've earned the right to call yourself an engineer.

Sounds like someone else doesn't like the FE and PE tests

 

[SaturnX]

In Canada, well Ontario at least, you cannot legally refer to yourself, or call yourself an Engineer unless you have a Professional License, otherwise the Professional Engineers of Ontario can take legal action against you.

It's a highly regulated term, there was an issue with MCSEs and referring to themselves as Engineers here in Ontario, although the situation was dealt within between Microsoft and the PEO.

--Mark

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Heisenberg
Sorry, but it's not.

yep. engineers use the tools to build stuff.

It's like saying the guy manufacturing the tool is an engineer.

Uh...programmers use their tools to build stuff too.

And it definitely takes engineers to make the tools in the first place.

LOL

 

[BlueWeasel]

Originally posted by: SaturnX
In Canada, well Ontario at least, you cannot legally refer to yourself, or call yourself an Engineer unless you have a Professional License, otherwise the Professional Engineers of Ontario can take legal action against you.

It's a highly regulated term, there was an issue with MCSEs and referring to themselves as Engineers here in Ontario, although the situation was dealt within between Microsoft and the PEO.

--Mark

There are similar laws in the US.

I know that it's against the law to have "engineer(s)" or "engineering" in the title of a business unless you have a licensed PE on staff.

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

To the guy that says EEs don't know physics, please do not generalize.
Have you even taken microwave and semiconductor classes? You have to know quite a bit of physics (electromagnetics, quantum electrodynamics, heck even classical mechanics). Where do you think all the boatload of extra resistors/caps/inductors in RF circuits come from? The parasitics

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: OdiN
Well...it's not.

It is Logical Engineering. Although it would probably be better classified as Mathematics than Engineering.

 

[Winchester]

Originally posted by: OdiN
Well...it's not.

 

[mercanucaribe]

Originally posted by: Alkesh
my roomate is a mech engineer. He's a cocky SOB who thinks he's the sh!t. He hates on social science majors because we have so much free time. I could have been an engineer if i wanted to, but i enjoy going out and having fun. he would always ask me to stay inside and drink with him at the apartment. This semester no go.

4 years of partying is that important to you?

 

[KillerCharlie]

If you don't have a bachelors from a program accredited by ABET (Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology) and called an "engineering program" by them, THEN YOU ARE NOT AN ENGINEER.

In fact in some countries you legally can't call yourself an engineer unless you're accredited by whatever engineering accreditation they have there.

Otherwise we have the sanitation engineers (garbagemen), domestic engineers (housewives), etc...

 

[Queasy]

Heh, if you think "Software Engineer" is funny then you'll love the folks that call themselves "Quality Assurance Engineers".

 

[iotone]

Originally posted by: Mears

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Computer science is not engineering in a traditional sense.

Stuff you do as a licensed professional engineer carry a lot of liability (human life, for instance). I don't see a programmer dude's failure will lead to fatalities.

Buggy software in an airplane/car/etc?

You have a ton of time to debug, testing and such.

You are obviously talking out of your ass.

we apparently forget about the Therac-25

 

[CalvinHobbs]

Originally posted by: JinLien

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Computer science is not engineering in a traditional sense.

Stuff you do as a licensed professional engineer carry a lot of liability (human life, for instance). I don't see a programmer dude's failure will lead to fatalities.

Buggy software in an airplane/car/etc?

:thumbsup:

Guided missiles?

Again, you can test them in a controlled environment.

You can't do that with a building. You'll know whether an Engineer failed or not in a major event. Same goes for MEs, look at what happened to Challenger & Columbia.

Says the guy who apparantly isn't a software developer.

We've gone from "I don't see a programmer dude's failure will lead to fatalities" to "you can test them in a controlled environment." A "programmer dude's" mistakes CAN cause fatalities. You can't cover every real-world situation in testing. You think they didn't do extensive testing on the parts in the space shuttles?

My apologies, I don't know anything about software development.

I still believe that coding is something much more controllable than physical stuff.

Does it matter whether or not programmers call themselves engineer or typist, or janitors call themselves sanitation engineer?

They are all human and are doing honest work and everyone should be treated with equal respect. It doesn?t mean that people with elitist titles such as king, emperor, shah, and president are better than the average people because they are not impervious to crimes, and there are great people that don?t hold any great title in this world that would sacrifice them selves to save others.

:thumbsup:

 

[sao123]

Didnt read the whole thread by heres my $.02...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering

Engineering applies scientific and technical knowledge to solve human problems. Engineers use imagination, judgment, reasoning and experience to apply science, technology, mathematics, and practical experience. The result is the design, production, and operation of useful objects or processes.

I see nothing here which excludes Programmers as engineers.
Engineering does not always require the use of practical sciences such as chemistry or physics.