Don't tase me bro!

[jlee]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Another man dies

Amnesty International has reported that, since June 2001, more than 150 people have died in the United States after being subdued with a stun gun. The organization has called for police departments to suspend use of the devices pending study of their possible risks.

So, almost half of the nations law enforcement agencies use tasers. IMO, that's too much potential for abuse. I wonder how many of those 150 who were killed actually needed such draconian action?

Although I would never put my self into a position where a cop needed to use force to get me to comply.... IF I did somehow end up in that position I sure hope they use their Tazer versus their other choices.


I really don't understand the position that some cops abuse a tool so the tool should be removed. So instead of using a Tazer they are going to use a baton? Are the bad cops that "abuse" the use of their Tazers somehow not going to "abuse" the use of their other non-lethal (and lethal for that matter) tools?

Also, I would like to see the numbers on how many lives have been saved by Tazers. I know of two cases locally where knife wielding criminals lived because the cops had Tazers. If they didn't have Tazers they would have certainly shot them both unless you are in favor of giving most street level cops other less than lethal long range weapons like bean bag guns. Even then, I would much prefer to be "tazed" then hit with a bean bag shot out of a shotgun.

Here's a few..
http://www.azle-news.com/news/...tid=1&cpg=get-news.asp
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms...mmary_0199-4930975_ITM
http://www.taser.com/company/p...ges/saveoftheweek.aspx

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Flatscan

Originally posted by: sandorski
The Modes are Moot. My objection is that the Police are using Tazers way too often and for circumstances that at one time would have been resolved without Weapons of any kind.

Thank you for following this thread and continuing this discussion.

What do you mean by "way too often"? Do you mean that you believe that the police often try the lower levels of the "Force Continuum" inadequately and jump to using the Taser? Can you give specific examples of incidents 1) where a Taser was used and 2) that could have been resolved without weapons? There are numerous threads returned when one searches for "Taser"; a few may fit your criteria.

Dude the DON'T TASE ME BRO incident is a GLARING example.

It's very hard to find taser injury information as one it's a new technology really and two they are trying to keep things quiet esp when a lawsuit is involved. I would be willing to bet most of these lawsuits get paid out providing the details are not disclosed.

 

[Dessert Tears]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Flatscan
What do you mean by "way too often"? Do you mean that you believe that the police often try the lower levels of the "Force Continuum" inadequately and jump to using the Taser? Can you give specific examples of incidents 1) where a Taser was used and 2) that could have been resolved without weapons? There are numerous threads returned when one searches for "Taser"; a few may fit your criteria.

Dude the DON'T TASE ME BRO incident is a GLARING example.

It's very hard to find taser injury information as one it's a new technology really and two they are trying to keep things quiet esp when a lawsuit is involved. I would be willing to bet most of these lawsuits get paid out providing the details are not disclosed.

What in particular makes the University of Florida Taser incident a glaring example?

• Meyer (the student) had been identified as a potential disturbance and warned about his behavior prior to his taking the mic and the start of the video.
• The decision to remove Meyer was a joint decision by the ACCENT staff (event organizers) and the police.
• Once his mic was turned off and the officers attempted to escort him out, Meyer refused to be removed and actively resisted the officers.
• The officers were able to handcuff only one of Meyer's wrists. He was warned verbally that he would be tased, then the "Drive Stun" was applied, which allowed his other wrist to be secured.

From what I remember of your previous posts, my guess is that your objections include that the Taser was used instead of simply forcing his wrists together manually. If one of Meyer's muscles had been strained by this action, he would have had discomfort lasting for some time. The pain caused by the electrical current from a Taser in either mode subsides immediately once the current stops.

Tasers have been in common use since at least 2001, becoming more widespread over time. Contact stun guns, which are functionally equivalent to "Drive Stun", some with voltages much higher than the Taser's 50kV, have been popular for "self defense" at least that long.

I heard that TASER International had settled a number of cases. The press release below implies that these settlements are limited to injuries sustained by police officers in training. I was not able to find any articles that indicate otherwise.

TASER Granted Summary Judgment Dismissing Product Liability Lawsuit (TASER press release, linked directly from TASER website):
This lawsuit represents the fifty-ninth (59th) wrongful death or injury lawsuit that has been dismissed or judgment entered in favor of TASER International. This number includes a small number of police officer training injury lawsuits that were settled and dismissed in cases where the settlement economics to TASER International were significantly less than the cost of litigation. TASER International has not lost any product liability lawsuit.

Furthermore, according to TASER's 2007/09/30 10-Q filing (scroll down to Product Liability Litigation, page 14), TASER prevented its insurance provider from settling with the plaintiff in two cases -
Samuel Powers v. TASER International personal injury case, Alvarado v. Taser International in-custody death case:

As part of its legal strategy to aggressively defend these cases, the Company entered into a settlement agreement with its own insurance provider in order to prevent its insurance provider from settling the case with the plaintiff.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Flatscan

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Flatscan
What do you mean by "way too often"? Do you mean that you believe that the police often try the lower levels of the "Force Continuum" inadequately and jump to using the Taser? Can you give specific examples of incidents 1) where a Taser was used and 2) that could have been resolved without weapons? There are numerous threads returned when one searches for "Taser"; a few may fit your criteria.

Dude the DON'T TASE ME BRO incident is a GLARING example.

It's very hard to find taser injury information as one it's a new technology really and two they are trying to keep things quiet esp when a lawsuit is involved. I would be willing to bet most of these lawsuits get paid out providing the details are not disclosed.

What in particular makes the University of Florida Taser incident a glaring example?

• Meyer (the student) had been identified as a potential disturbance and warned about his behavior prior to his taking the mic and the start of the video.
• The decision to remove Meyer was a joint decision by the ACCENT staff (event organizers) and the police.
• Once his mic was turned off and the officers attempted to escort him out, Meyer refused to be removed and actively resisted the officers.
• The officers were able to handcuff only one of Meyer's wrists. He was warned verbally that he would be tased, then the "Drive Stun" was applied, which allowed his other wrist to be secured.

From what I remember of your previous posts, my guess is that your objections include that the Taser was used instead of simply forcing his wrists together manually. If one of Meyer's muscles had been strained by this action, he would have had discomfort lasting for some time. The pain caused by the electrical current from a Taser in either mode subsides immediately once the current stops.

Tasers have been in common use since at least 2001, becoming more widespread over time. Contact stun guns, which are functionally equivalent to "Drive Stun", some with voltages much higher than the Taser's 50kV, have been popular for "self defense" at least that long.

I heard that TASER International had settled a number of cases. The press release below implies that these settlements are limited to injuries sustained by police officers in training. I was not able to find any articles that indicate otherwise.

TASER Granted Summary Judgment Dismissing Product Liability Lawsuit (TASER press release, linked directly from TASER website):
This lawsuit represents the fifty-ninth (59th) wrongful death or injury lawsuit that has been dismissed or judgment entered in favor of TASER International. This number includes a small number of police officer training injury lawsuits that were settled and dismissed in cases where the settlement economics to TASER International were significantly less than the cost of litigation. TASER International has not lost any product liability lawsuit.

Furthermore, according to TASER's 2007/09/30 10-Q filing (scroll down to Product Liability Litigation, page 14), TASER prevented its insurance provider from settling with the plaintiff in two cases -
Samuel Powers v. TASER International personal injury case, Alvarado v. Taser International in-custody death case:

As part of its legal strategy to aggressively defend these cases, the Company entered into a settlement agreement with its own insurance provider in order to prevent its insurance provider from settling the case with the plaintiff.

There was no need for a Tazer in that incident. They moved him out just fine before using the Tazer.

 

[Dessert Tears]

Originally posted by: sandorski in response to Flatscan, re: University of Florida Taser incident
There was no need for a Tazer in that incident. They moved him out just fine before using the Tazer.

Did you watch any of the videos or read any descriptions of the incident? Meyer struggled briefly with the two police officers who attempted to remove him by gripping his arms in a "dual transporter position". A third kept a Taser aimed, and a fourth assisted and single-handedly carried Meyer towards the exit. Near the exit, Meyer successfully broke away and was restrained by an additional two officers, for a total of six officers holding him down. That is not "just fine" - the officers kept Meyer contained, but hardly controlled.

The "contact tase" instantly paused Meyer's vigorous active resistance and allowed him to be fully handcuffed.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Flatscan

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Flatscan
What do you mean by "way too often"? Do you mean that you believe that the police often try the lower levels of the "Force Continuum" inadequately and jump to using the Taser? Can you give specific examples of incidents 1) where a Taser was used and 2) that could have been resolved without weapons? There are numerous threads returned when one searches for "Taser"; a few may fit your criteria.

Dude the DON'T TASE ME BRO incident is a GLARING example.

It's very hard to find taser injury information as one it's a new technology really and two they are trying to keep things quiet esp when a lawsuit is involved. I would be willing to bet most of these lawsuits get paid out providing the details are not disclosed.

What in particular makes the University of Florida Taser incident a glaring example?

• Meyer (the student) had been identified as a potential disturbance and warned about his behavior prior to his taking the mic and the start of the video.
• The decision to remove Meyer was a joint decision by the ACCENT staff (event organizers) and the police.
• Once his mic was turned off and the officers attempted to escort him out, Meyer refused to be removed and actively resisted the officers.
• The officers were able to handcuff only one of Meyer's wrists. He was warned verbally that he would be tased, then the "Drive Stun" was applied, which allowed his other wrist to be secured.

From what I remember of your previous posts, my guess is that your objections include that the Taser was used instead of simply forcing his wrists together manually. If one of Meyer's muscles had been strained by this action, he would have had discomfort lasting for some time. The pain caused by the electrical current from a Taser in either mode subsides immediately once the current stops.

Tasers have been in common use since at least 2001, becoming more widespread over time. Contact stun guns, which are functionally equivalent to "Drive Stun", some with voltages much higher than the Taser's 50kV, have been popular for "self defense" at least that long.

I heard that TASER International had settled a number of cases. The press release below implies that these settlements are limited to injuries sustained by police officers in training. I was not able to find any articles that indicate otherwise.

TASER Granted Summary Judgment Dismissing Product Liability Lawsuit (TASER press release, linked directly from TASER website):
This lawsuit represents the fifty-ninth (59th) wrongful death or injury lawsuit that has been dismissed or judgment entered in favor of TASER International. This number includes a small number of police officer training injury lawsuits that were settled and dismissed in cases where the settlement economics to TASER International were significantly less than the cost of litigation. TASER International has not lost any product liability lawsuit.

Furthermore, according to TASER's 2007/09/30 10-Q filing (scroll down to Product Liability Litigation, page 14), TASER prevented its insurance provider from settling with the plaintiff in two cases -
Samuel Powers v. TASER International personal injury case, Alvarado v. Taser International in-custody death case:

As part of its legal strategy to aggressively defend these cases, the Company entered into a settlement agreement with its own insurance provider in order to prevent its insurance provider from settling the case with the plaintiff.

ok, you only want to hear what you want.

A strained muscle (if it did happen from a healthy young male) heals...being tasered may not.

/thread.

You should post up your google skillz though. Help others be an expurt today.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Flatscan

Originally posted by: sandorski in response to Flatscan, re: University of Florida Taser incident
There was no need for a Tazer in that incident. They moved him out just fine before using the Tazer.

Did you watch any of the videos or read any descriptions of the incident? Meyer struggled briefly with the two police officers who attempted to remove him by gripping his arms in a "dual transporter position". A third kept a Taser aimed, and a fourth assisted and single-handedly carried Meyer towards the exit. Near the exit, Meyer successfully broke away and was restrained by an additional two officers, for a total of six officers holding him down. That is not "just fine" - the officers kept Meyer contained, but hardly controlled.

The "contact tase" instantly paused Meyer's vigorous active resistance and allowed him to be fully handcuffed.

The guy was an idiot, not a threat. Sorry, I can't sit here and think it's ok for Cops to Taze someone just because he's being a nuisance.

 

[Dessert Tears]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
ok, you only want to hear what you want.

A strained muscle (if it did happen from a healthy young male) heals...being tasered may not.

/thread.

I've posted several times that "Drive Stun" has zero risk of sudden death (or even serious injury), including once in direct response to you in the UF thread:

Originally posted by: Flatscan here

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Flatscan

Originally posted by: alkemyst, emphasis added
You don't get your arm broke in what I explained above unless you want your arm broken. A taser can kill you. A broken arm possibly could (fracture cutting an artery, post surgery infection, etc), but the chance is slim to none.

Can you provide any cases where a Taser in "Drive Stun" or a conventional stun gun has been linked to a death?

For what purpose? My points are the cops did not need any taser in this situation.

Feel free to look up that all the deaths did not use "Drive Stun" and get back to us.

There is zero danger of "Drive Stun" causing ventricular fibrillation and sudden death. "Drive Stun" can stimulate neither surface muscles - it is ineffectual in causing electro-muscular disruption (incapacitation, "paralysis") - nor the cardiac muscle.

As far as I know, you've never responded directly to this point.

 

[Dessert Tears]

Originally posted by: sandorski, re: University of Florida Taser incident
The guy was an idiot, not a threat. Sorry, I can't sit here and think it's ok for Cops to Taze someone just because he's being a nuisance.

You're entitled to your opinion.

• The police were justified in removing Meyer, having made the decision jointly with the ACCENT staff, considering his disruptive behavior.
• The Taser, used in "Drive Stun", assisted in effecting said removal while reducing risk for all involved.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Flatscan

Originally posted by: sandorski in response to Flatscan, re: University of Florida Taser incident
There was no need for a Tazer in that incident. They moved him out just fine before using the Tazer.

Did you watch any of the videos or read any descriptions of the incident? Meyer struggled briefly with the two police officers who attempted to remove him by gripping his arms in a "dual transporter position". A third kept a Taser aimed, and a fourth assisted and single-handedly carried Meyer towards the exit. Near the exit, Meyer successfully broke away and was restrained by an additional two officers, for a total of six officers holding him down. That is not "just fine" - the officers kept Meyer contained, but hardly controlled.

The "contact tase" instantly paused Meyer's vigorous active resistance and allowed him to be fully handcuffed.

The guy was an idiot, not a threat. Sorry, I can't sit here and think it's ok for Cops to Taze someone just because he's being a nuisance.

At what point did resisting arrest become simply a "nuisance"?