Donald Trump releases his birth certificate, demands Obama does the same

[jonks]

I don't claim to know how much has been spent.

But having been personally involved in civil litigation, I know damn well fighting off 60 cases, no matter how crappy, ain't no walk in the park nor is it cheap. You can't just refuse to respond, no matter how baseless, or you'll lose. Your lawyer is going to have prep, write a response and/or motions, go to scheduling meetings at the courthouse, and probably show up in court.

When considering the cost, I think it also fair to add in the cost of court officials and judges etc.

I don't know much has been expended, but it's not an immaterial sum.

Every president and governor is sued many times over by many stupid people. Prisoners who can prove destitution tend to be allowed to file without fees and the ones who can read and write tend to do so in great numbers. You can't appease these people either and putting the cost of access to the courts on the president or other government official is unwarranted. Also, the courts and officers are there anyway, there's no additional monetary cost to doing their job specifically alotted to defending/hearing birther cases.

Now, as to Obama, if he did show his purported long form birth certificate, you claim that would cease or lessen wasteful law suits against him? Let's look at the facts.

Birthers have claimed Obama can't be president because

- his COLB is fake.
- he needs to disclose his 'long form' birth cert.
- he was born in Kenya.
- he lost his citizenship when he went to Indonesia as a youth.
- he is a citizen but not natural born citizen.
- he's not a natural born citizen since both parents were not US citizens.
- he acquired dual citizenship

I don't know if there's been legal action brought on every one of these claims, but it's probably so. Ejecting 'long form' from that list still leaves plenty for conspiracy theorists to chew on, so if cost is your concern, producing a birth certificate won't help any. As to the "not immaterial costs" of defense, why not ask the US attorney who defended against Orly Taitz as her case dragged out for over a year?

"I filed one motion that didn't take too long, we've had two hearings and that's it," he says. "It's not like we've devoted some sort of task force to this."

Oh, and Taitz was fined $20,000 for bringing a frivolous suit, which probably covered the costs of a good number of birther suits brought in the country.

 

[Fern]

Jonks,

You really really really don't want Obama to have to show his original or long form BC, do you?

Are you worried that his original is a Delayed BC?

Fern

 

[werepossum]

They are easily accessible. I got a photo copy of mine in 1991 mailed to be and millions of people do it all the time.

Oh, I could get mine as well. But Honolulu has about a million inhabitants. That's a LOT of filing cabinets, boxes, etc.

No, not correct. At least not at the time Obama's BC was released.

To apply for benefits as an indiginous Hawaiian, you were required to submit a copy of the original long form to the Hawaiin Dept of Homeland. I.e., the state of Hawaii didn't necessarily accept the type Obama has produced for certain purposes.
SNIP
So, Hawaii has the capability to produce the original long form.
Fern

I did not know that, but regardless, this effectively ceased to be a viable issue when Obama became the first black major party Presidential nominee. I'm all for establishing better, stricter procedures for determining eligibility, but I see no way to enforce that until after Obama leaves office without very adverse societal reactions. Were I black, I'd probably see the Birther movement as nothing more than racism. Also, we have to be realistic; a Certificate of Live Birth may be all we get on a future Presidential candidate.

This whole thing has become like the JFK assassination, there's so much conflicting information that we'll likely never know all the details to everyone's satisfaction. I believe the current governor, after promising to produce the original long form birth certificate, has been forced to admit he cannot find it and that it probably no longer exists, in spite of the people who have supposedly seen it. It happens; things get lost, things get inadvertently destroyed, things may even get stolen. Remember the government employee who accessed and publicized Joe the Plumber's private information trying to smear him? Sooner or later a government employee will steal a long copy birth certificate if one is required to qualify. Might even have happened here; what might the birth certificate of America's first black President eventually be worth if filched and passed down to one's progeny? But for me, the newspaper announcement pretty much nails it even before the nomination made it a non-issue.

 

[jonks]

Jonks,

You really really really don't want Obama to have to show his original or long form BC, do you?

Are you worried that his original is a Delayed BC?

I have zero concerns. I simply find conspiracy arguments laughable. Again, you saw Matt's arguments about that Executive Order situation earlier in the thread? When presented with convincing evidence clearly contradicting his whacko view, he brushed it off, deflected, ignored, and continued on. This is the exact same M.O. that occured every step of the way with the birth certificate issue per L00py's summary. There is no "good enough" for people who at this point still have doubts on the issue.

And frankly, I can see Obama saying either "Fuck the morons, we've done everything any white person would have to do and I'm not going to appease nutjobs who don't like me because I'm not named John Smith. Could I get the original doc that's somewhere in HI? Most likely. But who would I be trying to satisfy? Birthers?? What reasonable person is asking for more proof that would be satisfied by yet another document?" or possibly "Fuck the morons, let them keep begging for more evidence despite all the existing evidence, they just look crazier and crazier and it drives the moderates my way."

As werepossum said, any ordinary citizen who wasn't convinced by the newspaper announcements alone needs to examine their motives.

 

[jonks]

A certified copy of a birth certificate has a registrar's raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal, registrar’s signature, and the date the certificate was filed with the registrar's office, which must be within 1 year of the person’s date of birth.

How to Get a Certified Birth Certificate

The federal government does not provide copies of birth certificates, marriage licenses, divorce decrees, death certificates, or any other personal vital records. Copies of birth certificates and other personal vital records can only be obtained from the state or US possession where the documents were originally filed. Most states provide a centralized source from which birth certificates and other vital records can be ordered.

Each state and US possession has its own set of rules and fees for ordering certified birth certificates on other vital records. Rules, ordering instructions and fees for all 50 states, the District of Columbia and all US possessions can be found on the Where to Write for Vital Records web page, helpfully maintained by the US Centers for Disease Control.

When ordering, be aware that shortened (abstract) versions of birth certificates offered by some states may not be acceptable for US passport purposes. Be sure to order only the full, certified copy of the original birth certificate bearing the registrar's raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal, registrar’s signature, and the date the certificate was filed with the registrar's office.

That document probably wouldn't even qualify for a passport.

Hey, let's go for debunking you 3 (or is it 4?) times in the same thread? I should put together all your posts and the responses showing how full of shit you are in one big post for posterity.

So on to this one:
http://factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

The certificate has all the elements the State Department requires for proving citizenship to obtain a U.S. passport: "your full name, the full name of your parent(s), date and place of birth, sex, date the birth record was filed, and the seal or other certification of the official custodian of such records." The names, date and place of birth, and filing date are all evident on the scanned version, and you can see the seal above.

You're on a roll. Wait, you probably didn't understand that, I'll try again.

Your on a role.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

As for OBama...

http://factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html[/QUOTE]

we have seen the certification of live birth earlier in this thread.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Hey, let's go for debunking you 3 (or is it 4?) times in the same thread? I should put together all your posts and the responses showing how full of shit you are in one big post for posterity.

So on to this one:
http://factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html


You're on a roll. Wait, you probably didn't understand that, I'll try again.

Your on a role.

nobody is doubting it met the requirements. They want to see the original not the certification of live birth issued in 2007

 

[Matt1970]

Hey, let's go for debunking you 3 (or is it 4?) times in the same thread? I should put together all your posts and the responses showing how full of shit you are in one big post for posterity.

So on to this one:
http://factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html


You're on a roll. Wait, you probably didn't understand that, I'll try again.

Your on a role.

Registrar's raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal not present nor is the registrar’s signature. The only reason to hide the document is there is something he doesn't want the world to see.

 

[Matt1970]

They want to see the original not the certification of live birth issued in 2007

This

 

[Jaepheth]

Here's a question.

If, for the sake of argument, Obama was proven to be ineligible for the presidency. What then?

I mean, the time for this argument to have any meaningful impact if proven was when Obama's name was being put on the ballot.

Do birthers think there'd be a new election held? Because all I can see happening is Biden becomes president.

...And then you'd have a Democratic president to deal with.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Registrar's raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal not present nor is the registrar’s signature. The only reason to hide the document is there is something he doesn't want the world to see.

Couldn't be bothered to click any of the multiple links to the Certificate of Live Birth, therefore they do not exist?

You really should try harder. Your Troll is astonishingly weak.

 

[jonks]

nobody is doubting it met the requirements.

That document probably wouldn't even qualify for a passport.

Matt might be an idiot IBS, but he's not nobody, he's a person!

 

[Fern]

Here's a question.

If, for the sake of argument, Obama was proven to be ineligible for the presidency. What then?

I mean, the time for this argument to have any meaningful impact if proven was when Obama's name was being put on the ballot.

Do birthers think there'd be a new election held? Because all I can see happening is Biden becomes president.

...And then you'd have a Democratic president to deal with.

A decent question.

Legal aspects:

- Yes, I believe Biden would then be President and serve out the remainder of Obama's term.

- We'd be going to the SCOTUS. Legislation (HC reform etc) signed into law by Obama would be challenged. Legislation is required by the Constitution to be signed by the President before becoming law, if he never qualified as President we'd have serious legal questions.

- Legislation/reform for ensuring candidates actually qualify BEFORE running.

Other aspects:

- Race riots, IMO.

- A highly entertaining spectacle for those of us interested in P&N.

Fern

 

[jonks]

Registrar's raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal not present nor is the registrar’s signature.

Friend, I'm beginning to get concerned for your mental health. Or eyesight.

http://factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

seal:
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_1.jpg

registrar's signature:
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_9.jpg

Alright, that's enough Matt for me. Someone else will have to takeover learnin' him, he's now invisible to me. Being proven wrong 5 times in one thread and not admitting any of them renders you ignorable.

http://thoughtcatalog.com/2011/how-to-have-a-rational-discussion/

 

[Jhhnn]

I don't claim to know how much has been spent.

But having been personally involved in civil litigation, I know damn well fighting off 60 cases, no matter how crappy, ain't no walk in the park nor is it cheap. You can't just refuse to respond, no matter how baseless, or you'll lose. Your lawyer is going to have prep, write a response and/or motions, go to scheduling meetings at the courthouse, and probably show up in court.

When considering the cost, I think it also fair to add in the cost of court officials and judges etc.

I don't know much has been expended, but it's not an immaterial sum.

Fern

"He?" Fern? Who is "He", precisely? The state of Hawaii, or Obama personally? Or who, exactly? What basis would anybody have to sue Obama, anyway? What sort of fool would persist with the State of Hawaii, either, now that it's settled case law, other than a delusional fool?

 

[bl4ckfl4g]

Haha I love these threads. We get to see who the crazies are.

There are enough valid reasons to not like this president. No need to make one up.

 

[Fern]

I don't claim to know how much has been spent.

But having been personally involved in civil litigation, I know damn well fighting off 60 cases, no matter how crappy, ain't no walk in the park nor is it cheap. You can't just refuse to respond, no matter how baseless, or you'll lose. Your lawyer is going to have prep, write a response and/or motions, go to scheduling meetings at the courthouse, and probably show up in court.

When considering the cost, I think it also fair to add in the cost of court officials and judges etc.

I don't know much has been expended, but it's not an immaterial sum.

Fern

"He?" Fern? Who is "He", precisely? The state of Hawaii, or Obama personally? Or who, exactly? What basis would anybody have to sue Obama, anyway? What sort of fool would persist with the State of Hawaii, either, now that it's settled case law, other than a delusional fool?

I don't understand your question. It seems to revolve around the word "He", and I cannot find that word in my post that you quoted.

Fern

 

[IceBergSLiM]

I don't understand your question. It seems to revolve around the word "He", and I cannot find that word in my post that you quoted.

Fern

Well I guess that depends on what your definition of "is" is. humph.

 

[Matt1970]

Friend, I'm beginning to get concerned for your mental health. Or eyesight.

http://factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

seal:
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_1.jpg

registrar's signature:
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_9.jpg

Alright, that's enough Matt for me. Someone else will have to takeover learnin' him, he's now invisible to me. Being proven wrong 5 times in one thread and not admitting any of them renders you ignorable.

http://thoughtcatalog.com/2011/how-to-have-a-rational-discussion/

That's the first I have seen of the raised seal. I couldn't see it or the signature from the front.

 

[Capt Caveman]

The plot thickens...

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/03/29...ald-trumps-birth-certificate-isnt-legitimate/

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/52148.html

As for OBama...

http://factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

Seriously, what is Donald Trump hiding? At least Obama, released a legitimate birth certificate from the State of Hawaii. Where is Donald Trump's Official State of New York birth certificate?

Maybe, he was born outside of the US?

 

[nonlnear]

Seriously, what is Donald Trump hiding? At least Obama, released a legitimate birth certificate from the State of Hawaii. Where is Donald Trump's Official State of New York birth certificate?

Maybe, he was born outside of the US?

I'm telling you, Donald Trump is a Democratic double agent. It's the only explanation.

 

[manimal]

Haha I love these threads. We get to see who the crazies are.

There are enough valid reasons to not like this president. No need to make one up.

yup-



being a birther is alot like believing that flouride is a master plan to control peoples minds or that the twin towers were an inside job...


I am all for independent though...batshit stupid on the other hand is batshit stupid...

 

[WHAMPOM]

1. No, and the rules have changed from time-to-time. Under the rules at that time, he would not have automatically been a US citizen if born abroad. IIRC, something about many years the mother had to have lived in the US as an adult.

2. The Constitutional rerquirement isn't to merely be a "US Citizen", it's something like "Natural Born Citizen" which many understand to mean actually born here in the USA. But, AFAIK, it's never been taken up by the SCOTUS so there is disagreement over that.

Fern

The debate in Congress about the presidential runner/guy born in Panama was about what?

 

[Jhhnn]

That's the first I have seen of the raised seal. I couldn't see it or the signature from the front.

Funny that- I linked the entire article back on page 2, post #49....

Too much trouble to click & read, I suppose... better to sit back and let the talking heads like Trump spoon-feed you what they want you to believe...

 

[Jhhnn]

I don't understand your question. It seems to revolve around the word "He", and I cannot find that word in my post that you quoted.

Fern

The same "he" you referenced before, both explicitly as "him" and with elliptical phrases- Obama.

He didn't spend a dime, of course- the taxpayers did, defending frivolous suits filed by Birthers over and over again. Yeh, they hate govt waste, unless they're creating it themselves, and then it's different, somehow.

The SCOTUS has simply refused to review lower court slapdowns of Birther suits, over and over again. It's come to hte point where the Court doesn't even ask for briefs from the govt, which should tell us just what merit such suits have, other than nuisance value and frothing up the faithful-

The Obama administration did not file, and the high court did not demand, a formal government response to this latest legal claim from Hollister, who said in his appeal he is a retired U.S. Air Force colonel.

The high court will often insist the Justice Department weigh in with its views on a particular constitutional issue, or when a top government official or agency is being sued, a strong sign the justices would be seriously considering accepting the appeal.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...-rejects-appeal-from-birther-advocate/?hpt=T2

So, uhh, keep those cards and letters coming, folks, make govt waste a self fulfilling prophesy by your own actions, and be sure, be absolutely sure, to pick the biggest raving birther as your presidential candidate in 2012, just to show the whole world what you're made of...

Too bad I can't find a pic of a dump truck dropping a load of fruitcakes...