I think being what gas prices are today less people are caring about performace v.s. economy. The big 3 are not known for performace (toyota/honda/nissan). So yeah, those cars will perform much better then any of the imports we are talking about. They drink gas.
I think being what gas prices are today less people are caring about performace v.s. economy. The big 3 are not known for performace (toyota/honda/nissan). So yeah, those cars will perform much better then any of the imports we are talking about. They drink gas.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
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Suzuki Hayabusa. Almost nothing on the road can keep up. 1/4 Mile in 10 seconds flat, stock. There are plenty of turbo 'Busas out there too.
As far as cars, the Camaro is no longer sold, until they actually bring it back. The GTO is pretty cheesy, but the Corvette is godly. Of course there's nothing in the price/performance to match in cars corvette vs. import. You can always mod an import into a 9 or 10 second monster, but of course the same is true of the domestics. You can get a $10k or less C5 and mod it for another couple grand into a track demon.
Speed isn't everything, though. As a daily driver, I'd MUCH rather ride around in a BMW 335i or G35 Coupe than be caught dead in a GTO/Camaro/Stang. Being fast can't make up for a crappy interior, too much road noise, and an utter lack of luxury and refinement. And I can absolutely understand the opposite viewpoint of people who can't give up that maximum hp/torque of the big American steel.
There's no right or wrong here, only personal preference.
Demon-Xanth
Lifer
- Feb 15, 2000
- 20,551
- 2
- 81
350Z: 17 city, 23 highway
GTO: 17 city, 25 highway
So....where's the gas milage difference?
Edit:
S2000: 18 city, 24 highway
...seeing a trend?
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
- 1,379
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Well, not everyone chooses to buy that flaming pile of sh*t known as the 350Z. Try the 17/27 Honda Accord V6 w/Manual Tranny. You could probably get better numbers by driving it smarter, as well. I averaged 36mpg in my total piece of crap Neon 5spd, with 93 octane, a K&N air filter, synthetic oil, and a light foot.
What years are you talking about the 2006 GTO used a LS2 which was a 6.0 Liter engine at 400HP. The 350Z (recent) used a V6 at 3.5 Liters. What years/models are you comparing. An older 350Z with a newer GTO.....
Demon-Xanth
Lifer
- Feb 15, 2000
- 20,551
- 2
- 81
Who the hell cross shops a GTO and an Accord? But thanks for proving my point further with the bolded comment
When I compare cars, I compare cars with the same intended purpose and the same price. Comparing a sports coupe with a family car is just silly.
Demon-Xanth
Lifer
- Feb 15, 2000
- 20,551
- 2
- 81
I did a search for the EPA figures for both and used 2005-2006. Yes, it's true. Smaller displacement DOES NOT guarentee less weight nor better gas milage. The "big inefficient V8" happens to be as efficient as the "small efficient V6".
exdeath
Lifer
- Jan 29, 2004
- 13,679
- 10
- 81
I used to care about having a fancy interior or expensive image and all that stuff when I was saving up for a Porsche while driving a 95 Camry... until one day someone, in I don't remember what kind of car, took it upon themselves to rub their obviously better car in my face and blow by me revving and all that stuff... it happened all the time esp going to college with all these rich kids in their parents BMWs and stuff, and it pissed me off and inspired me to get a nice car myself, but for some reason that last time was the final straw and I just snapped.
At that instant I just looked down at my cloth seats, gauges, plastic dash, etc. and told myself silently: "you know, I'm not even really all that unhappy with THIS car (the 95 Camry), I just wished I had more power so I could embarrass idiots like that who start it when I'm minding my own business".
Then I dumped the Porsche idea and went with a 2003 Cobra for its raw power potential and haven't looked back since.
For all the talk about 'cornering' and 'balance' and 'luxury' and 'quality interior', people, no, immature kids, in BMWs sure do like to rev at Camry's and Tercels at red lights. And on the street I've never seen two people one upping each other about their sun roofs or the quality of their interior. Nope, it's when the light changes red and both have to stop at the light next to each other that somebody has the final word.
I'm sure when they are pushing the pedal to the floor and feel like they are going in reverse against my Cobra, how comfy their seats are is probably the last thing on their mind when they are red faced and fuming furious at having just got their ass handed to them.
After all that, I don't mind a black plastic dash one bit. I'm sure I could get it custom stitched in leather if I wanted for less than $1000, but meh, thats money better spent under the hood.
Like you said, "there's no right or wrong here, only personal preference" but thats my personal take on it. If someone thought the quality of their gauge face finish was so important they wouldn't be out trying to race every car they come across 5 seconds after driving it off the dealer lot.
That's not true...European cars (BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche) tend to be less reliable whether or not you consider the demographics of the owners. This wasn't always the case, but Americans cars have gotten much better, whereas the Europeans seem more interested in adding more complex electronic gizmos than in improving basic reliability.
You're trying to compare a Honda Accord to a GTO? Don't make me laugh. Although I guess if you put premium in a Neon, who knows your motives.
And IMHO 17/27 is CRAP for a family car the size of the Accord. It's powerful enough to be inefficient and expensive to fuel, but not powerful enough to get any respect on the track.
But what do I know, I ride a bike
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
- 44
- 91
It is and has always been true that cars that offer similar performance will have similar fuel economy. If two engines do the same amount of work, they will consume a similar amount of fuel. It's just that simple. Strange how few of the import lovers understand that, isn't it.
They also don't realise how important gearing is to a car's mileage. A big V8 that can turn 1,500 RPM at 65 mph on the freeway can be more efficient than a small 4-cylinder spinning at 3,000 RPM.
ZV
exdeath
Lifer
- Jan 29, 2004
- 13,679
- 10
- 81
Power is all about fuel flow.
A 2L 4 cyl with 14.7 lbs of boost revving to 10,000 RPM is going to make as much power and eat as much fuel as a 8L V8 revving to 5,000 RPM.
The nice thing though with a small displacement boosted engine is you can stay out of boost and have a tame fuel sipping commuter, but still break the tires loose when you feel like it.
Also as I mentioned before, the bigger engine can make the same power with crappy gas while the boosted 'highly tunned and efficient smaller engine' needs nothing less than premium, since boost increases heat and pressure but displacement does not.
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
- 44
- 91
Depends on when the boost comes on. I don't hit boost until 4,000 RPM in first on the 951 at which point the car positively sling-shots and it's all I can do to grab second fast enough. Thankfully the increased engine load in the higher gears makes the boost come on lower at around 2,800-3,000 RPM.
ZV
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
- 1,379
- 126
Originally posted by: jagec
That's not true...European cars (BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche) tend to be less reliable whether or not you consider the demographics of the owners. This wasn't always the case, but Americans cars have gotten much better, whereas the Europeans seem more interested in adding more complex electronic gizmos than in improving basic reliability.
You're trying to compare a Honda Accord to a GTO? Don't make me laugh. Although I guess if you put premium in a Neon, who knows your motives.
And IMHO 17/27 is CRAP for a family car the size of the Accord. It's powerful enough to be inefficient and expensive to fuel, but not powerful enough to get any respect on the track.
But what do I know, I ride a bike
I sincerely doubt that there are very many idiots who would buy an Accord for 'respect at the track'. Rather, the longevity of the drivetrain, driver/passenger comfort & safety, great resale value, and low insurance costs all make a compelling case for buying one.
People who want gobs of power are more than willing to sacrifice nearly all of that in exchange, but that represents a minority of car buyers.
17/27 is not 'crap' for a large car like the Accord. Have you even ridden in one lately? They're quite roomy inside, with a big trunk. And the 240hp V6 is silky smooth and more than adequate for daily driving. Hell, 10 years ago the Mustang GT had LESS HP, and was 17/26 with the 5spd, while having much less room.
Putting 93 octane in my neon, along with the other changes (aftermarket filters, plugs, wires, synthetic oil), were what got me 36mpg in a car that more normally achieved 29-32mpg.
Demon-Xanth
Lifer
- Feb 15, 2000
- 20,551
- 2
- 81
I agree with what you're saying. I have an '02 Dakota and I drove an '87 Volvo for about a week (before someone bought it from me), one thing that I found was that as much of a beater that it was, it was fun. When I went driving, I went driving. I wasn't worried about dings, scratches, or even having it stolen for that matter. It's really making me wonder if my next car will be an old (as in '40-50s) pickup. Yeah, I'll be missing having A/C A LOT. But there is just something about having a car that is just a car that puts a smile on my face.
Sometimes you just have to ask yourself, "here's my budget, what would I be happiest in". And sometimes, the answer will surprize you. When it came time to sell my Grand Prix, I did that. And from the driver's seat, my Dakota looks like a stripped down model. No power windows, no power door locks, no fog lights, no tilt wheel, no cruise control, no power seats, no leather, no engine computer that calculates MPG and tells you what direction you're heading, hell it's a manual! Just an aftermarket radio and A/C. Climb underneath, and you'll see something. A V8 matched to that five speed, the tire and handling package, heavy duty package, tow package, larger tires, KYB shocks, traction bars. I loaded it up with stuff that will keep it from breaking and ordered it without stuff that I'd never use but would break. The only thing I worry about breaking when I go to the track is the tires loose. I could go out and buy a car for twice as much, but I wouldn't have as much enjoyment.
Next time you pass some guy cruising in a beater, don't be surprised if he's smiling. Afterall, one thing they probably don't have is a car payment.
exdeath
Lifer
- Jan 29, 2004
- 13,679
- 10
- 81
With the blower I hit boost at 2,000 RPM if I get on it with intent, otherwise I can casually rev to about 3,500 RPM before I have no choice.
Most of the time though I cruise around town in 6th gear (.60 overdrive with 3.55 rear end) at like 1100 RPM and get around 25 mpg. The idle bypass in the blower supposedly allows the blower to freewheel and consume no more than 5 HP.
exdeath
Lifer
- Jan 29, 2004
- 13,679
- 10
- 81
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: jagec
That's not true...European cars (BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche) tend to be less reliable whether or not you consider the demographics of the owners. This wasn't always the case, but Americans cars have gotten much better, whereas the Europeans seem more interested in adding more complex electronic gizmos than in improving basic reliability.
You're trying to compare a Honda Accord to a GTO? Don't make me laugh. Although I guess if you put premium in a Neon, who knows your motives.
And IMHO 17/27 is CRAP for a family car the size of the Accord. It's powerful enough to be inefficient and expensive to fuel, but not powerful enough to get any respect on the track.
But what do I know, I ride a bike
I sincerely doubt that there are very many idiots who would buy an Accord for 'respect at the track'. Rather, the longevity of the drivetrain, driver/passenger comfort & safety, great resale value, and low insurance costs all make a compelling case for buying one.
People who want gobs of power are more than willing to sacrifice nearly all of that in exchange, but that represents a minority of car buyers.
17/27 is not 'crap' for a large car like the Accord. Have you even ridden in one lately? They're quite roomy inside, with a big trunk. And the 240hp V6 is silky smooth and more than adequate for daily driving. Hell, 10 years ago the Mustang GT had LESS HP, and was 17/26 with the 5spd, while having much less room.
Putting 93 octane in my neon, along with the other changes (aftermarket filters, plugs, wires, synthetic oil), were what got me 36mpg in a car that more normally achieved 29-32mpg.
93 was a waste unless you are running high compression, boost, advanced timing, or running in hot climates and experience lots of pinging and retardation. I run 91 (best we have here) even in my 130 HP Camry even though it doesn't require premium, and I can totally tell the difference in mileage and power on those hot summer A/C on hill climbs on the freeway. Not that the power goes up, but I don't feel robbed of power or hear a tin can full of marbles under my hood in the Arizona heat.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
- 1,379
- 126
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: jagec
That's not true...European cars (BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche) tend to be less reliable whether or not you consider the demographics of the owners. This wasn't always the case, but Americans cars have gotten much better, whereas the Europeans seem more interested in adding more complex electronic gizmos than in improving basic reliability.
You're trying to compare a Honda Accord to a GTO? Don't make me laugh. Although I guess if you put premium in a Neon, who knows your motives.
And IMHO 17/27 is CRAP for a family car the size of the Accord. It's powerful enough to be inefficient and expensive to fuel, but not powerful enough to get any respect on the track.
But what do I know, I ride a bike
I sincerely doubt that there are very many idiots who would buy an Accord for 'respect at the track'. Rather, the longevity of the drivetrain, driver/passenger comfort & safety, great resale value, and low insurance costs all make a compelling case for buying one.
People who want gobs of power are more than willing to sacrifice nearly all of that in exchange, but that represents a minority of car buyers.
17/27 is not 'crap' for a large car like the Accord. Have you even ridden in one lately? They're quite roomy inside, with a big trunk. And the 240hp V6 is silky smooth and more than adequate for daily driving. Hell, 10 years ago the Mustang GT had LESS HP, and was 17/26 with the 5spd, while having much less room.
Putting 93 octane in my neon, along with the other changes (aftermarket filters, plugs, wires, synthetic oil), were what got me 36mpg in a car that more normally achieved 29-32mpg.
93 was a waste unless you are running high compression, boost, advanced timing, or running in hot climates and experience lots of pinging and retardation. I run 91 (best we have here) even in my 130 HP Camry even though it doesn't require premium, and I can totally tell the difference in mileage and power on those hot summer A/C on hill climbs on the freeway. Not that the power goes up, but I don't feel robbed of power.
I'm in Texas, and I had to drive that Neon in bumper-to-bumper traffic in temperatures that regularly exceeded 100F. I did this because I also noticed a big jump in mpg in my previous 16v dohc 4-cylinder Preludes. 93 really did make a difference in smoothness and efficiency, and was measurable by how many miles I got on a tank. Of course, this was a few years back when the price difference was only 10 cents between 87 and 93. It's often 20-25 cents/gallon difference now, and gas is $3+ instead of $1.59 or whatever.
Not another Domestic vs. Import discussion.
Maybe we should have a Van Halen singer debate, too: David Lee Roth vs. Sammy Hagar. 'Cause NOBODY has ever discussed that before, either.
Maybe we should have a Van Halen singer debate, too: David Lee Roth vs. Sammy Hagar. 'Cause NOBODY has ever discussed that before, either.
Demon-Xanth
Lifer
- Feb 15, 2000
- 20,551
- 2
- 81
Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Not another Domestic vs. Import discussion.
Maybe we should have a Van Halen singer debate, too: David Lee Roth vs. Sammy Hagar. 'Cause NOBODY has ever discussed that before, either.
Unless you race your van around the 'ring I don't see why you'd need halon in it.
- Mar 20, 2000
- 102,402
- 8,574
- 126
dashboard strokers confuse interior tactile feedback with quality. kinda weird, that. yes, i like my soft touch plastics in certain areas (arm rests) but for the top of the dash that i never touch, i couldn't care less. i would like it to look nice because i look at it a lot, but i almost never touch it.
oh, and my nissan is a POS.
I don't know how you are reading these figures.
2006 Pontiac GTO - 15 city/23 Hwy
2007 Nissan 350Z - 18 city/25 Hwy
These are both using automatic transmissions. But again the GTO is using a 8cyl while the 350Z is using a 6 cylinder 6.0L / 3.2 L respectivley.
How did this turn to a performance discussion.....
exdeath
Lifer
- Jan 29, 2004
- 13,679
- 10
- 81
Are we nit picking 2 mpg when comparing 6.0L to 3.5L? LOL
Since horsepower per liter is so popular with ricers why can't we talk liters per MPG and see who's engines are really fuel efficient?
Almost twice the displacement and nearly the same MPGs... those tiny gas guzzling imports should be getting twice the MPG *snicker*
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
- 1,379
- 126
Originally posted by: exdeath
Are we nit picking 2 mpg when comparing 6.0L to 3.5L? LOL
Since horsepower per liter is so popular with ricers why can't we talk MPG per liter and see who's engines are really fuel efficient?
Almost twice the displacement and nearly the same MPGs... those tiny gas guzzling imports should be getting twice the MPG *snicker*
I find the EPA MPG ratings somewhat dubious anyway. My Brother's Nissan Titan does considerably worse than the window sticker says, but his Acura TL does much better. Go figure.
Efficient? Prius.
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