DOJ tells schools to implement race-based punishments

[DrPizza]

How many of those students are on their third and final warning that resulted in suspension? We don't know this information. Does the .gov know, or are they just making a blanket determination that Jimmy, the black student that got suspended after being late for school his third time in two weeks got suspended while Mary the white girl didn't after being late once in the same two week period. This is just to cite one of many possible contributing factors.

I would ask some questions.

Is there widespread racism in disciplinary actions within our school systems that warrant the DOJ getting involved? I would think stories that would lead up to an action like this would be all over the media. The media eats this kind of story up.

What percentage of resources is the DOJ devoting to investigations of this type? Is this a cost-effective expenditure of tax dollars? What prompted their investigations? Complaints from parents? I would refer back to question one.

Is this a form of political grandstanding in an election year?

Will this assist our public schools in providing a better education to our students? The article has quotes that lead one to believe that this will not be the case. You are a schoolteacher. Would your classroom be better suited to learning with x number of students watching youtube videos on their phones in your classroom that you could not discipline because your quota had been met for the week or would it be better to have the trouble makers removed and hopefully taught a lesson on what is not acceptable behavior in the classroom?

First of all, you're the OP, but seem not to have read the letter, because your "third and final warning" type stuff was very clearly addressed in the letter.

And both of you are bringing some major logical fallacies into this by announcing that schools willl have quotas, or that schools have to look the other way when black students or Hispanic students break rules. Nothing in that letter implies that.

Letter summary, in a nutshell:

*Similarly situated students (e.g., a black student who has been tardy 5 times is not similarly situated to a white student who is tardy for the first time) need to be punished the same.

*Schools need to make sure that their rules don't have a disparate impact on one race.

I'll give you a new example of exactly what this means: Let's say a school decided to allow students to listen to the radio (for the sake of illustrating this point more clearly) at lunch time. The vast majority of black students prefer to listen to R&B and rap. A lot of the white students do too, but quite a few white students also listen to country music, while very few of the black students listen to country music. (Apologies if this seems like stereotyping, but audiences at various concerts seem to confirm this statistic.) The only rule about listening to the radio - if there's swearing, the student gets detention. Further, let's say that the black students are diligent enough to seek out stations where they only play music that has been "cleaned up."

Now, I don't know about you, but I've listened to the DJ's on both types of stations on Sirius often enough to know that you're not going to hear a bit of swearing on the country station, but the R&B and rap DJ's are going to toss out the occasional word that's going to result in a student being suspended. Is that the fault of the student for preferring that type of music? No. Even though the students listening to rap have made an effort to avoid the foul language, they still get punished at a greater rate than white students through no fault of their own. Thus, the policy has a disparate impact.

NOW, that alone isn't enough for the school to get in trouble. If the school can explain that there isn't an alternative solution that would avoid this, then it's not discrimination. However, there are multiple solutions that would work: require PG stations & not penalize students for a DJ who should not have used certain language. Or, not allow music at all during lunch.

And, yes, I'm a teacher, and have been very aware of this type of stuff before I even began teaching. This letter doesn't tell schools anything different than what I've learned in a couple of educational law courses (one undergrad, one graduate, plus the subject touched upon in numerous other courses.)

The reason for the letter is that schools have to report a plethora of statistics about school discipline, student offenses, etc. And, apparently it's quite clear that at a lot of schools, when analyzing rates of offenses and rates of punishments, things don't quite add up. Further, data can draw suspicions by way of comparison to similar school districts. E.g., 10 school districts with similar populations of students, 9 report in the ball park of 20 white students served out of school suspensions and 40 black students served out of school suspensions. But then, one school had 70 black suspensions and only 5 white suspensions - when the schools have similar populations, similar economic areas, etc., that's going to raise some eyebrows.

P.s. I'd love to see DVC chime in on this topic

p.p.s. while it goes a bit off topic, I'll answer this: "that you could not discipline because your quota had been met for the week or would it be better to have the trouble makers removed and hopefully taught a lesson on what is not acceptable behavior in the classroom?" I have not sent a student to the office in probably 10 years. I have not given a student detention in probably as many years. And, to the best of my recollection, I've had to take the drastic step of rearranging 1 or 2 students' seats (I allow them to freely choose their seat from day one) maybe twice in the past 6 or 7 years.

 

[TerryMathews]

Going to wait for a report from a legitimate news source before forming an opinion on the matter.

Why? The letter has been posted. How about read it?

 

[michal1980]

In other words, you have nothing substantive to disprove any of the statements in the letter. You even go so far as to repeat thoroughly discredited allegations about the IRS - a completely unrelated topic involving a completely different department of the U.S. government, by the way - to reinforce your beliefs. You're "sure" that the reasons given and evidence cited in the letter just can't be true.

If this is all you've got, why do you even bother to post?

You are the poster child for what we mean when we say "conservatard."

Why was the letter written then if not to scare schools?

IRS thing was never discredited.


The liberal spin machine in action. The letter doesn't say what it says. Water is dry. The sun raises in the west.

 

[DrPizza]

Why was the letter written then if not to scare schools?

IRS thing was never discredited.


The liberal spin machine in action. The letter doesn't say what it says. Water is dry. The sun raises in the west.

Durrrrr,
The letter was written because statistics - that are reported by these schools - show that there is discrimination being carried out in schools. It's a reminder to administrators in districts to pay attention. Maybe they don't even realize their own biases.

There hasn't been any liberal spin on this letter. I've attempted to explain the letter to you, you apparently don't understand the English being used which is also being further explained by the examples they use. The only spin on this is yours.

 

[michal1980]

Durrrrr,
The letter was written because statistics - that are reported by these schools - show that there is discrimination being carried out in schools. It's a reminder to administrators in districts to pay attention. Maybe they don't even realize their own biases.

There hasn't been any liberal spin on this letter. I've attempted to explain the letter to you, you apparently don't understand the English being used which is also being further explained by the examples they use. The only spin on this is yours.

It couldn't possibly be that black kids just misbehave more then white kids. nope not possible.

 

[fskimospy]

It couldn't possibly be that black kids just misbehave more then white kids. nope not possible.

Go read the letter.

Yet again.

 

[ivwshane]

The dog whistle sounds and the dogs come a-bark'n!

Leave it to the retarded right to fall for the same shit time and time again! Good boy! Now sit as you obediently wait for that treat, which never comes!

And they say, "progz are insane"?

 

[DrPizza]

It couldn't possibly be that black kids just misbehave more then white kids. nope not possible.

Uhh, I've lost count. Is this the 3rd or 4th time that I feel compelled to tell you that your reading comprehension sucks. The letter does not address that at all. If black students swear at teachers far more often than white students swear at teachers, that's not the problem. The problem addressed by the letter is when the black students are suspended for it, while the white students get detention.

The only thing that addresses the rate at which offenses are occurred is the section about disparate impacts of a rule - the busing example was a good example, and the example I gave above is another good example of what's meant by that. It does NOT, however, imply that it's presumed that black and white students will have identical rates of breaking school rules. (I don't know for certain that these would necessarily be different anyway, but am lending some credibility to that presumption for some districts based on inner city cultural and economic issues which seem to impact black families at a higher rate.)

 

[CanOWorms]

Does that go for the whities paying majority of taxes to?

Probably don't pay enough taxes given the enormous income advantage that white privilege provides and the low estate taxes that allow the accumulation of wealth during times of economic power unfairly concentrated within the community to be transferred via inheritance. These are probably the biggest forms of societal and governmental welfare in existence in the world.

 

[michal1980]

Uhh, I've lost count. Is this the 3rd or 4th time that I feel compelled to tell you that your reading comprehension sucks. The letter does not address that at all. If black students swear at teachers far more often than white students swear at teachers, that's not the problem. The problem addressed by the letter is when the black students are suspended for it, while the white students get detention.

The only thing that addresses the rate at which offenses are occurred is the section about disparate impacts of a rule - the busing example was a good example, and the example I gave above is another good example of what's meant by that. It does NOT, however, imply that it's presumed that black and white students will have identical rates of breaking school rules. (I don't know for certain that these would necessarily be different anyway, but am lending some credibility to that presumption for some districts based on inner city cultural and economic issues which seem to impact black families at a higher rate.)

I've quoted the relevant section multiple times. Your post willfully ignores that part over and over again defend your dear leader.

 

[nehalem256]

Uhh, I've lost count. Is this the 3rd or 4th time that I feel compelled to tell you that your reading comprehension sucks. The letter does not address that at all. If black students swear at teachers far more often than white students swear at teachers, that's not the problem. The problem addressed by the letter is when the black students are suspended for it, while the white students get detention.

The only thing that addresses the rate at which offenses are occurred is the section about disparate impacts of a rule - the busing example was a good example, and the example I gave above is another good example of what's meant by that. It does NOT, however, imply that it's presumed that black and white students will have identical rates of breaking school rules. (I don't know for certain that these would necessarily be different anyway, but am lending some credibility to that presumption for some districts based on inner city cultural and economic issues which seem to impact black families at a higher rate.)

Um wouldn't such a discrepancy be best addressed with say mandatory punishments. Something specifically called out as an example of a possibly discriminatory policy?

“Schools also violate Federal law when they evenhandedly implement facially neutral policies and practices that, although not adopted with the intent to discriminate, nonetheless have an unjustified effect of discriminating against students on the basis of race.

Examples of policies that can raise disparate impact concerns include policies that impose mandatory suspension, expulsion, or citation (e.g., ticketing or other fines or summonses) upon any student who commits a specified offense — such as being tardy to class, being in possession of a cellular phone, being found insubordinate, acting out, or not wearing the proper school uniform.”

So if you have a mandatory policy of suspending students who are insubordinate, and more black students get suspended that would raise disparate impact concerns.

 

[classy]

I don't understand all the posts. The letter is simply addressing that the application of discipline be equal, nothing more or less. And its all based on a report.

Quote from the letter

The Departments recognize that disparities in student discipline rates in a school or district may
be caused by a range of factors. However, research suggests that the substantial racial disparities
of the kind reflected in the CRDC data are not explained by more frequent or more serious
misbehavior by students of color.7

 

[nehalem256]

I don't understand all the posts. The letter is simply addressing that the application of discipline be equal, nothing more or less. And its all based on a report.

Quote from the letter

Read this quote in the original article:

“Schools also violate Federal law when they evenhandedly implement facially neutral policies and practices that, although not adopted with the intent to discriminate, nonetheless have an unjustified effect of discriminating against students on the basis of race.

Examples of policies that can raise disparate impact concerns include policies that impose mandatory suspension, expulsion, or citation (e.g., ticketing or other fines or summonses) upon any student who commits a specified offense — such as being tardy to class, being in possession of a cellular phone, being found insubordinate, acting out, or not wearing the proper school uniform.”

It is clearly saying. If you adopt policies that would seemingly be neutral and have nothing to with race. If you apply these polices evenhandedly(ie not dishing out harshest sentenes for performing the same actions to one race). You may still be in violation of a federal law.

 

[boomerang]

Eric Holder has exhibited absolutely no behavior that leads me to have any trust in him. The letter consists of words, nothing more and the DOJ under Holder will decide the meaning of those words and how they will be enforced. The distrust applies across the board to this regime. They are incessant liars.

 

[brycejones]

I've quoted the relevant section multiple times. Your post willfully ignores that part over and over again defend your dear leader.

How many times were you dropped on your head as a child or did you suffer a traumatic head injury as an adult? Those are the only explanations left or else you are just a troll.

 

[Moonbeam]

oops

 

[Moonbeam]

How many times were you dropped on your head as a child or did you suffer a traumatic head injury as an adult? Those are the only explanations left or else you are just a troll.

He will just tell you that you're the troll. You can't expect a thread with the words DOJ, schools, race-based, and punishments, to go very well among the conservative brain defective. They have altered meanings for all of these words to fit with their altered reality.

 

[shira]

It's truly amazing. The letter clearly states that a significant amount of the disparities in punishment cannot be explained by blacks misbehaving more than whites. But again and again we hear from right-wing posters, "What if the black kids are just doing more bad things?"

It's that old truthyism in full swing: "I don't care about evidence. All that matters is what I believe."

 

[Moonbeam]

It's truly amazing. The letter clearly states that a significant amount of the disparities in punishment cannot be explained by blacks misbehaving more than whites. But again and again we hear from right-wing posters, "What if the black kids are just doing more bad things?"

It's that old truthyism in full swing: "I don't care about evidence. All that matters is what I believe."

They can handle evidence if doesn't hurt their feelings.

 

[DrPizza]

I've quoted the relevant section multiple times. Your post willfully ignores that part over and over again defend your dear leader.

Um wouldn't such a discrepancy be best addressed with say mandatory punishments. Something specifically called out as an example of a possibly discriminatory policy?


So if you have a mandatory policy of suspending students who are insubordinate, and more black students get suspended that would raise disparate impact concerns.

Read this quote in the original article:


It is clearly saying. If you adopt policies that would seemingly be neutral and have nothing to with race. If you apply these polices evenhandedly(ie not dishing out harshest sentenes for performing the same actions to one race). You may still be in violation of a federal law.

*sigh* I understand what your interpretation is. However, your interpretation is incorrect, as exhibited by the examples provided following those statements. Can you relate your interpretation to any of the examples given? Please? If not, then stop trolling.

 

[UberNeuman]

*sigh* I understand what your interpretation is. However, your interpretation is incorrect, as exhibited by the examples provided following those statements. Can you relate your interpretation to any of the examples given? Please? If not, then stop trolling.

Doctor. You can't heal the ill when the ill willfully ingest poison...

 

[bradly1101]

There's a lot of threads here by conservatives about race or 'reverse racism.' Why the obsession? Were you taught that life is always 100% fair?

Also I believe these threads present a whiff of racism.

 

[Moonbeam]

There's a lot of threads here by conservatives about race or 'reverse racism.' Why the obsession? Were you taught that life is always 100% fair?

Also I believe these threads present a whiff of racism.

They know what bigotry is because they are bigots. They project that others are as bigoted as them. Thus they fear that the bigotry they harbor and pretend isn't there is there in the other will be directed at them. The evil we dent in ourselves mates us fear that others are as evil as we are. And because we act that evil out, eventually they surely will be. We create what we fear.

 

[IGBT]

it's just yet another liberal extension of grievance mongering. liberals must create victims to forward their bent agenda. No doubt liberal race based "fairness" will slither into public policy.

 

[Geosurface]

Regardless of our various interpretations of the letter, the fact is that when these sorts of "concerns" about disparities are floating around in the education system, there's a track record of administrators using some pretty awful methods to try to bring their statistics into a more "equal" range.

One example I'm particularly familiar with was the Miami-Dade schools (previously eluded to in this thread) taking heat for having too many criminal infractions within their system (they are one of the few public school districts in the nation with their own full-fledged police force) and that too high a percentage of these infractions were black male teenagers.

They then boasted in 2011 that they'd dropped their crime statistics in the district by 60%!!!! Wowzers, impressive eh?

Except that it later came out that this had mostly been achieved by just no longer handling crimes as crimes, and treating them instead as disciplinary incidents to be handled by the school, not by the police as they previously had been. Drug possession, clear evidence of burglary, vandalism, assaults, etc which should lawfully (and used to) generate criminal records, no longer did so. The police chief for the Miami-Dade PD ended up losing his job over this, thankfully.

They also utilized something called the Baker act which allowed them to send a student to a mental health counseling center for just part of that day, as a way to avoid generating a criminal incident report.

And it may not surprise you that whistle-blower officers in the department revealed that this new laxer standard was applied particularly to the group they'd been most interested in bringing the numbers down for; black teenage males.

There are plenty of other examples of this sort of thing being detrimental, like standards for becoming a police officer / fire fighter / numerous other professions and getting promoted within those professions being lowered because of disparities... and many, many more if you care to look into it.

So whatever it is Holder's DOJ was trying to convey in this letter, and whatever it is some of you want to think he was trying to convey... it doesn't matter. The fact you can't avoid is that when the system makes it known that they aren't happy with the outcomes, horrible things which hurt our entire society are routinely, perhaps even ALWAYS done to try to "remedy" the issue.

A lot of these organizations know that not doing so can have implications for funding, public relations, etc. Though usually, just a strong desire to be politically correct will suffice.

So the concerns some of us have expressed are not so fantastical as people would like to imply.