Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
You said it. The illegal nature of drugs and prostetution makes the human situation much worse.
You have drugs dealers fighting/stabbing/shooting to maintain territories.
Drug addict thiefs and armed robbers to pay for inflated drug prices.
Protitutes who depend on brutal pimps for "protection", collection and bail bond.
Pimps who prey on young naive womens sometimes forceing them to engage in that line of work.
and so on,..
If legalised most of the brutality and auxiliary crimes would disappear. Keeping it illegal just forces it underground and leads to worse crimes on the women.
No, but some women (and men) are born with a much higher than average sexual drive, and enjoy working in the sex trade. I have met some of them socially (hanging out in strip clubs and the like out-of-hours because a friend of mine dated one). Some of them really ARE in it because they enjoy the sex, and like the feeling of control over men. Others are in it because they can make a lot more money in it (if they have the looks) than they can with their college CPA degree. Some are doing it just to put themselves through school...or pay off their college debts.
And admittedly, some are in it because they are scared, pressured, skillless, and drug-addicted. And that is what legalization should help end...
Future Shock
Right, this works for guns, it worked great for the opium trade etc...
It's the governments fault that these crimes happen because they make the sex-trade illegal.
Humorous.
Yes, it does. Arresting prostitutes gets them off the street, slowing the spread of diseases and giving an opportunity for social intervention on behalf of the prostitute (and his/her children). You can also arrest pimps in most jurisdictions.
Please, who could possibly know the the truth of this in any deep and final way? All people engaged in actions that arise out of their own moral degradation have rationalizations in place to protect them from being conscious of this. And your protestations that you know people means nothing to me. I have no way to evaluate the perspicacity of your insight into human nature nor any way to access whether you yourself have a hidden need to also rationalize in this area. We see humanity as he is, not as he can be. Give me a world where children are raises with love, free from put downs and the sickness self hate none today can escape, and then we'll see if there are folk who will have sex for money. I am of the opinion that those who have real self love and self respect have sex as a flowering of love.
There is no price one who loves himself will pay for the loss of his self respect because there is nothing in heaven or earth more valuable.
So are you against strip clubs and porn as well ?
P.S. It's a the oldest profession in the world for a very good reason as even your high moralists have been know to be customers.
I hate to break the news to you but the only prostitues hanging around on street corners are meth/crack/herion addicts and those being pimped. A lot of "ladies of the night" have taken up the internet as a way to sell their services.
I hate to break the news to you, but prostituting yourself on the Internet does not make oneself safe from arrest. Most prostitutes are also not self-employed, especially high-priced call girls. Like I said, hate to break it to you!
BoberFett
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
- 81
And you know what people say about opinions and arseholes...
Just because you feel like sex with someone you don't love is dirty, doesn't mean everyone agrees with you.
Mooney, the whole problem with your way of thinking is that you want to deny others the opportunity to get where you are. The human condition is one of ups and downs, tragedy and joy. Your vision is that of a world where there is no tragedy, only joy. You arrived where you are because of your past. You didn't grow up in a perfect world, and that's what led you to become the person you are. That's all that anyone is, the sum of their past. Your desire for nobody to experience tragedy will leave everybody without past experiences which they can grow on. Maybe once you realize that you'll see that controlling peoples experiences is far less important than guiding their futures, and you'll worry more about teaching and less about controlling peoples day to day activities. Teach people, and they'll take care of themselves.
As far as nobody being slaves to money, food and shelter, unless you have a plan whereby nobody can work just homes are still constructed and meals still prepared, we're all slaves. Somebody has to do the work.
BoberFett
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
- 81
You're not so bright, are ya Bubba. You can't even follow your own argument.
If the goal is to get them off the streets, the internet has already done that to some extent. Want to get them off the streets even more? Legalize prostitution so they'll move inside where they have storefronts and signs, ads will bring in customers. They won't have to stand outside and wave people down.
Legalizing also gives some controllability to the situation. If you want to slow the spread of disease, legal prostitutes could require frequent medical checkups.
The truth is this - my balls hurt when I don't have enough sex. I can't concentrate effectively, I lose focus, and I need release. Having spent all but 3 years of my 40+ unmarried, I have procured sexual release with women in a myriad of ways. I am hardly unique in this regards...in fact, I doubt I am in the minority.
The fact is, this creates a market for available sex partners. Some will take their compensation in having their own sexual desires met, some will take it in the promise of security via marriage or long-term relationship, some will take it in gifts, and some will take it in money. But the point is - a great many women want something for it, because they have different points of view than men.
Really, is the hooker that gets paid $1000 a night any less a lady than the woman that expects expensive dinners at Le Cirque in Manhattan as an influence on her continued "love" of you? Why is one legal, and one not???
Future Shock
I follow my argument just fine. The aim is not just to get street prostitutes off the street, but to end prostitution as well. I made no inconsistent statements. Not too bright, are ya, bubba? I am, though. You'd love to have my abilities.
Legalization doesn't improve the situation at all, except that the state can then tax legal prostitution. The stupid part of the legalization idea is that it wouldn't end illegal prostitution, especially not the sort that preys on minors. That's the very sort of prostitution that should be the first to be destroyed.
Come on-- they HURT? Hahaha. Where'd you get that line, from "Saturday Night Fever"? Masturbation would clear that up just fine anyway. Your lack of concentration does not create a market for sex partners-- your lack of morals does.
Really can you provide me with the facts and figures that shows that the majorty of internet prositutes are pimped ? If anything the internet has cut out the traditional "pimp" middle man in a lot of cases according the sex worker advocate sites.
LoL - They'll end prostitution like alcohol prohibition in 20-30's ended drinking. Again prostitution is and shall always remain the oldest profession in the world as it has survived and thrived in countless of repressive political and religious regimes all over the world past, present and if human nature remains consistent in the future.
The best efforts would be as you said to go after any prostitution that revolves around minors or involuntary sex workers instead of going after consensual adult sex workers.
Once again, you have totally confused cause and effect - my high sex drive is only a cause...what I do about it is an effect. And the cause has NOTHING to do with my morals...it has to do with biology, and having a healthy supply of male horomones. (Good news for you - they now have testosterone in a patch form).
And frankly, you don't know jack sh*t about my morals - the actual effect of that strong sex drive...you don't know if I have been with 10 women, 2 women, or 100 women. You don't know if I have ever paid for sex, or how often. And yet, you feel comfortable being judgemental on my state of morals....? Interesting, and very illuminating - about you.
Future Shock
A very thoughtful and intelligent post there Bober. Thanks much for it.
B: Just because you feel like sex with someone you don't love is dirty, doesn't mean everyone agrees with you.
M: I didn't say it's dirty. I think it's not what real sex is about. Sexual drive is a survival imperative that produces the next generation, but orgasm is what creates parental bonds, in my opinion. I am not afraid of the fact that I have an asshole, by the way, or that my opinion is just that, mine. I personally see no higher sex than that which binds two people in love. Real sex is far more, again in my opinion, than getting your rocks off to relieve emotional tension.
And we haven't even touched on what feeling may lie at the heart of that tension, like the need to fill a void created by feelings of worthlessness. I must be OK because I was just successful at conquest. There is no doubt in my mind that for many many people sex is a drug that fills an unconscious addiction. It's not that it's dirty, it's that one is under the control of unconscious forces and compulsive.
B: Mooney, the whole problem with your way of thinking is that you want to deny others the opportunity to get where you are. The human condition is one of ups and downs, tragedy and joy.
M: These are two sides to life, the deep and the light and when you are on one or the other the opposite is as if it does not exist. Grief is a real emotion. We are born and we will die as will everything around us we love. When we experience loss nothing can save us from this realization. Six times down and seven times up as the Zen master says.
B: Your vision is that of a world where there is no tragedy, only joy.
M: So there is no life that is tragedy free. This is what happened to the Buddha, they hid all misery from him till one day he saw death and began his journey, no?
B: You arrived where you are because of your past. You didn't grow up in a perfect world, and that's what led you to become the person you are. That's all that anyone is, the sum of their past.
M: The problem, of course, is that we do not remember our past. I have said many times that all our pain is there and we Need to relive it.
B: Your desire for nobody to experience tragedy will leave everybody without past experiences which they can grow on.
M: These are very deep questions. Tragedy is many things. Grief is a tragedy that can't be escaped. Being put down, being molested, tortured, made to feel worthless, physically mutilated, these are tragedies too. Do we have to be completely destroyed to be tough. It is not unusual to become quite egotistical about how bad some of us had it, as if it were a purple heart and a crutch we can lean on to excuse our imperfections. I understand what you are saying though and agree to a point.
B: Maybe once you realize that you'll see that controlling peoples experiences is far less important than guiding their futures, and you'll worry more about teaching and less about controlling peoples day to day activities. Teach people, and they'll take care of themselves.
M: Much of what happens to people completely destroys them. Brutal rape, for example, sometimes scars women for life. Let us try to have some balance here. We don't want to make a god of tragedy or wish it on folks to make them deep. I think people can be deeply serious without having to come out of a concentration camp. But all of us have anyway. I vote for a bit less pain to overcome.
We are our past and we are hiding from deep pain. I know and discovered this truth, that if you suffer you will not suffer. It is in experiencing what we have hidden from ourselves about what we feel that we heal. One can teach but nobody wants to experience their pain. I can only point out that it is ourselves that is the enemy.
B: As far as nobody being slaves to money, food and shelter, unless you have a plan whereby nobody can work just homes are still constructed and meals still prepared, we're all slaves. Somebody has to do the work.
M: "There are a million paths in life and they all lead nowhere. Choose a path that has a heart."
B: Just because you feel like sex with someone you don't love is dirty, doesn't mean everyone agrees with you.
M: I didn't say it's dirty. I think it's not what real sex is about. Sexual drive is a survival imperative that produces the next generation, but orgasm is what creates parental bonds, in my opinion. I am not afraid of the fact that I have an asshole, by the way, or that my opinion is just that, mine. I personally see no higher sex than that which binds two people in love. Real sex is far more, again in my opinion, than getting your rocks off to relieve emotional tension.
And we haven't even touched on what feeling may lie at the heart of that tension, like the need to fill a void created by feelings of worthlessness. I must be OK because I was just successful at conquest. There is no doubt in my mind that for many many people sex is a drug that fills an unconscious addiction. It's not that it's dirty, it's that one is under the control of unconscious forces and compulsive.
B: Mooney, the whole problem with your way of thinking is that you want to deny others the opportunity to get where you are. The human condition is one of ups and downs, tragedy and joy.
M: These are two sides to life, the deep and the light and when you are on one or the other the opposite is as if it does not exist. Grief is a real emotion. We are born and we will die as will everything around us we love. When we experience loss nothing can save us from this realization. Six times down and seven times up as the Zen master says.
B: Your vision is that of a world where there is no tragedy, only joy.
M: So there is no life that is tragedy free. This is what happened to the Buddha, they hid all misery from him till one day he saw death and began his journey, no?
B: You arrived where you are because of your past. You didn't grow up in a perfect world, and that's what led you to become the person you are. That's all that anyone is, the sum of their past.
M: The problem, of course, is that we do not remember our past. I have said many times that all our pain is there and we Need to relive it.
B: Your desire for nobody to experience tragedy will leave everybody without past experiences which they can grow on.
M: These are very deep questions. Tragedy is many things. Grief is a tragedy that can't be escaped. Being put down, being molested, tortured, made to feel worthless, physically mutilated, these are tragedies too. Do we have to be completely destroyed to be tough. It is not unusual to become quite egotistical about how bad some of us had it, as if it were a purple heart and a crutch we can lean on to excuse our imperfections. I understand what you are saying though and agree to a point.
B: Maybe once you realize that you'll see that controlling peoples experiences is far less important than guiding their futures, and you'll worry more about teaching and less about controlling peoples day to day activities. Teach people, and they'll take care of themselves.
M: Much of what happens to people completely destroys them. Brutal rape, for example, sometimes scars women for life. Let us try to have some balance here. We don't want to make a god of tragedy or wish it on folks to make them deep. I think people can be deeply serious without having to come out of a concentration camp. But all of us have anyway. I vote for a bit less pain to overcome.
We are our past and we are hiding from deep pain. I know and discovered this truth, that if you suffer you will not suffer. It is in experiencing what we have hidden from ourselves about what we feel that we heal. One can teach but nobody wants to experience their pain. I can only point out that it is ourselves that is the enemy.
B: As far as nobody being slaves to money, food and shelter, unless you have a plan whereby nobody can work just homes are still constructed and meals still prepared, we're all slaves. Somebody has to do the work.
M: "There are a million paths in life and they all lead nowhere. Choose a path that has a heart."
Your error, in my opinion, FS, is that you assume you know yourself. If you stumble into the unconscious you will be in for a big surprise much like discovering your a battery pack for the Matrix.
If you want to tax a group for their 'income' it does mean you are acknowledging it as work. And if you acknowledge prostitution as work it does mean you have to give the workers the same legal rights and protection as other professions.
Here in Holland that has been done, which means they have a far clearer view as to whom is doing the work. This also means that illegal girls (most likely forced into prostitution) can be detected much faster than was previously the case. And as they have healthcare rights too now the hygiene and general health improved too.
Of course neocons do not want to give them any rights, but it may mean that when trying to lock someone up for not paying taxes it will turn into a long legal battle.
Here in Holland that has been done, which means they have a far clearer view as to whom is doing the work. This also means that illegal girls (most likely forced into prostitution) can be detected much faster than was previously the case. And as they have healthcare rights too now the hygiene and general health improved too.
Of course neocons do not want to give them any rights, but it may mean that when trying to lock someone up for not paying taxes it will turn into a long legal battle.
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