Does Wal-Mart Destroy Communities?

[glenn1]

walmart has created more chinese jobs than american jobs. How many Walmarts are in China?

Cisco Systems sells a lot of routers in China. Cisco has created more American jobs than Chinese jobs. How many Ciscos are in China?

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: glenn1

walmart has created more chinese jobs than american jobs. How many Walmarts are in China?

Cisco Systems sells a lot of routers in China. Cisco has created more American jobs than Chinese jobs. How many Ciscos are in China?

but all the parts inside come from china.

 

[CrackRabbit]

Originally posted by: glenn1

If you think Wal-Mart does not change the face ofAmerican cities come here to San Francisco. We have never had a wal-mart and we have family owned buisnesses on every corner.
My local stores know me and my GF's names and they do not have to wear a nametag at work. Drive out to the 'burbs and you getthe occasional gas station in a urban wasteland of freeways and half-closed strip malls. If you can not remember America before wal-mart or are too young come take a look. Diversity is great thing. But then some people like wal-marts *shrug*

And either the second or third highest cost of living of any city in the country to boot, correlation anyone?

And anything, you should welcome a Walmart in SF since it would give those tens of thousands of homeless people you pamper so much a chance for gainful employment.

I agree withg glenn1, the heart of SF is just like the burbs you described, shutdown stores and rotting 90 year old buildings are just as abundant as the broken down stripmalls outside. Take off your rose tinted glasses and get a dose of reality.


CrackRabbit

 

[Steeplerot]

Very high cost of living and rightly so it is the most beautiful place in america to live and it doesent look like the bankrupt hole that the typical american city has become. (wal-mart)
Anyhow that whole myth is BS about it being toooo expensive we make more money here and no need for a car offsets to rent prices (which are dropping very rapidly as the suburbanites go home and the the city to what SF has always been)
I wouldn't wish wal-mart jobs on homeless people.
Homeless people are a fact of life -a hard reality for many
Idon't see why people are so down on homeless most of them who arent sick in the head who got thrown out of instutions where they belong thanks to budget cuts in the 90's are just transitory people. JUST LIKE THE HOMELESS EUROPEAN SQUATTERS WHO COLONIZED THIS COUNTRY.
So lay off the homeless do you get a thrill out of kicking people who are down?
Iraq sounds like a great place for you you should sign up jerk.

 

[Steeplerot]

"the heart of SF?" You have no clue I live downtown and walk everyday we had a fire about 2 weeks ago in a house down the street but nothing around us looks derelict. A few closed stores but they open again soon in time.
Must be a diffrent SF (I live on Haight street around fillmore area and it's not exactly rich either)

I take some that back you might be reffering to the tenderloin area but that has ALWAYS been ghetto even the name comes from its shady past and thats cool with me the immigrants move there historiclly to get their start and it may not look like the prettiest but the streets are bustling with people new to our country making a new start (small vietnamesse cleaners food joints etc. no matter what hateful regulations or racism we put on them that is the american dream small buisnesses not 5.25 an hour wal-mart job.

 

[CrackRabbit]

Originally posted by: steeplerot
Very high cost of living and rightly so it is the most beautiful place in america to live and it doesent look like the bankrupt hole that the typical american city has become. (wal-mart)
Anyhow that whole myth is BS about it being toooo expensive we make more money here and no need for a car offsets to rent prices (which are dropping very rapidly as the suburbanites go home and the the city to what SF has always been)
I wouldn't wish wal-mart jobs on homeless people.
Homeless people are a fact of life -a hard reality for many
Idon't see why people are so down on homeless most of them who arent sick in the head who got thrown out of instutions where they belong thanks to budget cuts in the 90's are just transitory people. JUST LIKE THE HOMELESS EUROPEAN SQUATTERS WHO COLONIZED THIS COUNTRY.
So lay off the homeless do you get a thrill out of kicking people who are down?
Iraq sounds like a great place for you you should sign up jerk.

Yes homeless people are a fact of life, every city has them.... but, after being accosted by them, and seeing them on nearly every street you have to realise that there is a problem that something needs to be done about.
BTW, not everyone that came to this country was a homeless squatter, if I remember correctly only Georgia was set up as a penal colony for debtors. The rest of the country was for those that came, for the most part, of thier own free will.

CrackRabbit

 

[Deleted member 4644]

There is a signle fundamental problem with the OP's link:

"Third, if the employees of the smaller store go to work at the new chain store, it is almost guaranteed that their pay will be higher than before and they will enjoy new benefits that most likely had not been available to them previously."

There is ZERO proof presented in the column that this is a true fact. If its true, I might agree with the OP. But I strongly suspect that its not true.

 

[Infohawk]

And either the second or third highest cost of living of any city in the country to boot, correlation anyone?

There is no correlation, or at least you haven't shown it. It's basic economics that higher demand generally increases prices. A lot of people want to live in cities like New York and San Francisco and so buying goods and housing there makes it more expensive.

 

[Steeplerot]

As far as the ones that are agressive panhandlers or loons they should be put back into instututions again its sad clinton let them all out into the streets to freeze and have to beg.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: steeplerot
As far as the ones that are agressive panhandlers or loons they should be put back into instututions again its sad clinton let them all out into the streets to freeze and have to beg.

Why don't you take them in?

 

[Steeplerot]

Because my home is not set up for the mentally disabled.
Nor is it a treatment facility.
But then you were just being a smartass so go rot ok?

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: steeplerot
Very high cost of living and rightly so it is the most beautiful place in america to live

I've been to Frisco...it is a nice city, but as far as being the most beautiful place in America I would have to disagree. I can think of several places in Colorado that are more beautiful. Same can be said for places I have been down South and on the East Coast. Heck I would say that the area I live in, just outside of Tulsa, is on par with Frisco.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: steeplerot
As far as the ones that are agressive panhandlers or loons they should be put back into instututions again its sad clinton let them all out into the streets to freeze and have to beg.

I don't know how long you've been in San Francisco but homeless have been in SF way before Clinton. I've heard a lot of people blame it on Reagan. I'm not sure if that's true but I do know Clinton is not to blame (because the problem predated him).

Anyway, can we all get back on subject. Unless you can show a link between the lack of homelessness and having or not have walmart there's no point talking about homelessness in this thread. Start another thread for that-- good subject but not the right place.

 

[Steeplerot]

I agree there are some other beautiful places this is just my opinion as far as a city I mean. If I was just going for scenery I agree one of the most beautiful places I have seen are the mountains on the east coast,caves to climb in and forests are beautiful. Weather-wise also Its always AC weather here year round this plays into my opinion also but it is just my opinion.
I really thinnk you'd be hard-pressed to find a more beautiful *city* temperature scenery and history of SF. IMO
I spilled Mountain Dew on my keyboard so please forgive blatent typos today

 

[Steeplerot]

I have been here since summer 95 when I first got here it was mainly young people, homeless traveling and what-not now it is older poeple, vets with usually serious problems in the head. I am trying to remember what it was called that Clinton put through that drasticlly changed our homeless population with mroe agressive sometimes violent types. Regan did soem of this also but from what I understand he let the sickest ones stay in to get the help they need. Clinton just swung the doors open for a nightmare of the streets for many here.

 

[CWRMadcat]

Hmmm..here's a thought...if you don't like Walmart, don't buy there?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: CWRMadcat
Hmmm..here's a thought...if you don't like Walmart, don't buy there?

Shhh... Absolutely NO use of logic will be allowed here - EVER!!!


CkG

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Dissipate

We have heard all the claims 10,000 times: Wal-Mart pays low wages and abuses workers, intimidates shoppers, destroys Main Street, puts American workers out of jobs, and encourages consumerism. Because some people believe these things, Wal-Mart sometimes runs into difficulties opening stores that would otherwise provide higher-paying jobs and wonderful goods and services to people who have not previously enjoyed access.

Text

This article is a crock. The author doesn't address the real issues with Wal-Mart with cooresponding real facts and figures. He only addresses them with folksy little statements like:

At the local Wal-Mart where I shop (contrary to Bolton, I do not believe that shopping at Wal-Mart violates the Holy Scriptures), I have noticed that many employees have stayed with that company for a long time, and there does not seem to be much turnover there. Furthermore, from what I can tell, they seem like normal people, not the oppressed slaves that the critics claim fill the ranks of Wal-Mart workers.

Oh! Excuse me, I'm sure we can assess the real impact of Wal-Mart by extrapolating our personal experience at our one local store upon the situation at-large.

Uh, he didn't extrapolate his experience at one store to the situation at large. Read the article again:

Now, my personal observations hardly constitute proof that Bolton and the other Wal-Mart critics are wrong, but unless they can repudiate the opportunity cost argument, they have ground upon which to stand. Wal-Mart is not engaged in a grand conspiracy to push down wages in any given market, and twisted logic cannot prove otherwise.

Furthermore, he goes on to argue points based on the THEORY of what should happen in a perfect capitalistic system rather than presenting actual numbers and facts about Wal-Mart that support the alleged "other side of the story" that Wal-Mart is simply misunderstood and is really good for us.

Economics is theories (except Austrian economics is a priori). Pray tell, which economic theory do you subscribe to? Keynesianism, socialism, Marxism?

Seems to me that the author has simply been chugging the Ayn Rand Kool-Aid for far too long.

Ayn Rand was a champion of liberty, her writings are far more enlightening yours.

 

[ReiAyanami]

i want a bumper sticker that his colleagues has: "Mal-Wart: The Source of Cheap Crap"

 

[EXman]

retard go ask a 1000 mom and pop ex-store owners or thousands more that will give you the evil look if you mention it in their establishment.

 

[DealMonkey]

Let's see, destroy communities you say? Well, increased crime certainly takes its toll on a community. Check out this article linking Wal-Mart to increased crime. It's AP so don't bother bashing the source.

LA Times

Wal-Mart Can Attract Revenue -- and Crime
Some small police forces find that the giant retailer can be a magnet for DUIs, shoplifting and other illegal acts.
By Alexandria Sage, Associated Press Writer

HARRISVILLE, Utah ? For the tiny police force in this bedroom community, the south end of town never caused much bother. Horses grazed in the green pastures, and for years, two solitary bars provided the only late-night distractions for those who needed something to do.

That was before early 2001, when Wal-Mart opened a 24-hour Supercenter that swallowed all 212,000 square feet of rural fields.

Since then, police in Harrisville, population 4,000, about 45 miles north of Salt Lake City, have been forced to confront big-city realities.

The most serious incident happened in the store in January, when an officer shot and wounded a man who pointed a fake gun at him.

As the world's largest retailer puts its stamp on rural communities, some towns are discovering that while the 24-hour big-box store may bring financial benefits, they go hand in hand with an unintended consequence: the increased burden on law enforcement.

In three years, calls to Harrisville police jumped by a third. The department hired two more officers ? bringing the total to six ? and the court schedule was extended to allow the city prosecutor time to negotiate pleas.

Wal-Mart's vast parking lot, where more than half the investigations for driving under the influence originate, is patrolled overnight. Drug DUI arrests outnumber those involving alcohol more than 2 to 1.

"Our DUIs skyrocketed. It just went through the roof," Officer Nate Thompson said on a Friday night when more than 100 cars remained in the parking lot after midnight.

The problem is apparent 15 miles away in Clinton, a town of 18,000 whose size nearly doubles each day because of the Supercenter, one of Wal-Mart's 19 discount store-supermarket hybrids in Utah and 1,400 nationwide.

"You just about name it," Police Chief Bill Chilson said. "Shoplifting, fraud scams; we've had DUI, traffic accidents, medical situations. We haven't had any shootings yet."

There was even a domestic violence arrest after the store's surveillance cameras captured a man punching his wife.

Before Wal-Mart opened, Chilson asked neighboring police what to expect. "They laughed at me," he recalled. A judge from another town asked him: "Have you been Wal-Mart-ized yet?" before recounting how his courtroom had been "inundated" by crimes originating at the store.

In some towns nationwide, law enforcement agencies have even opened substations in the store to better respond to the increased activity.

The Bentonville, Ark.-based retailer says it works closely with police on crime-prevention measures, including staff training and community outreach. Each store has undercover security, many of them former officers.

A representative denied that Wal-Mart brings increased crime and attributed any extra police calls to the store's aggressive policy toward shoplifters.

"You're going to see an increase in reporting of shoplifting calls and that goes back to our policy of zero tolerance," spokeswoman Sharon Weber said.

Wal-Mart is a "social gathering place," but it's unfair to blame the store for the actions of a few, she said. "We trust that our customers will be responsible and polite, and for the most part, we have wonderful customers who do that."

Although the stores have been criticized for attracting traffic, creating low-wage jobs and destroying neighboring businesses, the effects on local police have drawn little attention.

"Within the last few years, we've seen a growing number of towns around the country that accept this kind of big-box sprawl and discover afterward that they're really quite costly from a public service standpoint," namely policing and roads, said Stacy Mitchell, a senior researcher with the Minneapolis-based Institute for Local Self-Reliance, a nonprofit research and educational organization.

Wal-Mart attracts loiterers with nothing better to do, some critics say.

"Kids are just plain bored ? they find more things to do there," said Alice Brando, a clerk for the Lakewood-Busti Police Department in western New York's Chautauqua County.

"It's obvious that it's going to add more calls, more people, more traffic, more accidents. I mean, it doesn't take anyone in law enforcement to figure that out," said Sheriff Eddie Cathey of Union County, N.C., who planned to address the issue at a county planning board meeting.

Chief John Slauch of the West Sadsbury Township Police Department in rural Pennsylvania made his own observations after Wal-Mart became the anchor store in a new development in 2002.

"We saw a significant increase in crime and incident calls for service from the day Wal-Mart opened," he said.

Misdemeanor crimes jumped 55% from 2001 to 2003; calls for service increased 57% from 2002 to 2003.

Municipal taxes don't cover the extra costs incurred by the eight-member police force, Slauch said.

"I really don't think Wal-Mart is concerned with what happens on the local level; they're concerned with how much money they're making," he said. "They're not looking at the burden they're creating."

But the problem is not felt everywhere. The majority of the more than 30 small to mid-sized agencies around the country interviewed said they were able to effectively handle the extra workload that Wal-Mart brought. Six reported no corresponding crime spike and only negligible increases in calls to police.

Overwhelmingly, police chiefs defended Wal-Mart as an asset that helped law enforcement. They said it provided full access and information for investigations and grants to fund police projects ? to say nothing of the tax benefits to the city.

"Thank goodness for Wal-Mart, that's all I can say," Harrisville Mayor Fred Oates said. "Any mayor in the United States who had the opportunity would be glad to have a Wal-Mart."

Harrisville earns about $60,000 in monthly sales taxes from Wal-Mart, Oates estimated. That figure will jump 40% after an access road to the store is paid for out of sales tax revenue this year.

Thompson and Police Chief Max Jackson also defend Wal-Mart as "good partners." The store donated funds for a bike patrol program, firearms, computers in patrol cars, and training materials and equipment.

Still, Jackson recognizes the significant effect it has on small police agencies, and intends to discuss it at the next board meeting of the National Center for Rural Law Enforcement.

As for Thompson, the added work produced an unexpected bonus. In 2002, he was named Utah Peace Officers Assn. officer of the year.

"It was based on the amount of arrests I made ? basically because of Wal-Mart."

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Uh, he didn't extrapolate his experience at one store to the situation at large. Read the article again:

Now, my personal observations hardly constitute proof that Bolton and the other Wal-Mart critics are wrong, but unless they can repudiate the opportunity cost argument, they have ground upon which to stand. Wal-Mart is not engaged in a grand conspiracy to push down wages in any given market, and twisted logic cannot prove otherwise.

Right, so why would he even mention it? Did he just get off on a little tangent to tell us all his little story, but oh yeah, bear in mind it's meaningless. How quaint. I'm supposed to take this guy seriously?

Wal-Mart has a vested interest in keeping wages and benefits as low as possible. They systematically crush any potential unions from springing up, they pay their workers less than other comperable retail and their benefits are a joke. They have workers working illegally off the clock. They hire illegal immigrants for their janitorial services. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, should I go on?

All of this behavior from the #1 retailer in North America. When does it stop being a "shining example" of American capitalism as some of you like to think, and start becoming a bloated, greedy monopoly?

It doesn't have to be this way. Costco has better prices than Wal-Mart/Sam's Club AND they treat their workers extremely well. Union leadership constantly cite Costco as one of the best places they've dealt with. A checkout clerk working at Costco for only a few years, takes home around $42K/year.

You don't see Costco employees sucking off the system, receving welfare, foodstamps and housing assistance. That ~$8/hr job at Wal-Mart has a much higher cost on the rest of us as their employees qualify for all kinds of social welfare programs.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: EXman
retard go ask a 1000 mom and pop ex-store owners or thousands more that will give you the evil look if you mention it in their establishment.

Looky here, an ad hom from a statist, how ironic. For your information I would have no problem mentioning Wal-Mart in any "mom & pop" shop. If they can't stay competitive they shouldn't stay in business. Guess this concept of competition is foreign to "utopians" who believe we should all be living in the stone age because technology will come along and get rid of people's jobs. Couldn't have that happen!

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CWRMadcat
Hmmm..here's a thought...if you don't like Walmart, don't buy there?

You have NO choice when everything else around closes down because of Walmart.

 

[dmcowen674]

"As for Thompson, the added work produced an unexpected bonus. In 2002, he was named Utah Peace Officers Assn. officer of the year.

"It was based on the amount of arrests I made ? basically because of Wal-Mart."

That CAD & Co love so much.