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Does the average person's comprehension of WiFi freak you out sometimes?

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Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
How exactly do you build a repeatable, secure system en masse, that works with other brands/products on the market, and is configurable still?

Show me ANY security system for wifi routers, and they all are flawed BECAUSE they have to make it easy to use and default settings.
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That is the type of task we should be discussing. Instead of using our brain power to make fun of those who don't understand technology, we should think of ways to make the technology usable AND secure for everyone.
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Okay, well I'll be more than happy to when I get compensated for doing that.

The simple fact is that with wireless there are not many options for simple, usable, secure, inter-operable products. With wireless there cannot be any basic "standard of trust", because it's wireless anybody can see it and with a basic level of trust between devices can get into the network.

Do I have ideas on how we could improve the level of trust between wireless devices? Sure. I have a lot of ideas, but until I get compensation for them why should I bother discussing them?
 
Hell my 26 digit key is 12345678901234567890123456. If that isn't the easiest code to guess I don't what is. The truth is that I'm not terribly worried about it. The fact that it shows up as a secured network would deter most potential kiddies around here, and the ones with more expertise would crack it no matter what garble of numbers and letters I used.
 
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
How exactly do you build a repeatable, secure system en masse, that works with other brands/products on the market, and is configurable still?

Show me ANY security system for wifi routers, and they all are flawed BECAUSE they have to make it easy to use and default settings.
Click to expand...
That is the type of task we should be discussing. Instead of using our brain power to make fun of those who don't understand technology, we should think of ways to make the technology usable AND secure for everyone.
Click to expand...

Or we could discuss making the average joe *gasp* learn how to use it. :shocked: In most cases it's not that hard. Buying any complex piece of technology is like buying a car. You learn how to use it and how to basically maintain it. Until the average joe starts learning that computers and such are no different, then the average Joe will continue to get screwed by them. User-friendliness can only go so far.

I actually read a paper on this once. Intellectual Darwinism. If I leave my social security card on top of my mailbox and don't know it's there, it's still my fault if some random guy comes along and steals my identity. The fact that I was ignorant of it's location or didn't know how to use a file cabinet is no excuse.
 
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: FP
How much did you pick the netbooks up for?
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~$200 (damn CA taxes & disposal fees), selling them for $250... Still cheaper than new (adding in taxes & CA fees) and they have the same warranty.
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Is the deal still around? Link?
 
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Hell my 26 digit key is 12345678901234567890123456. If that isn't the easiest code to guess I don't what is. The truth is that I'm not terribly worried about it. The fact that it shows up as a secured network would deter most potential kiddies around here, and the ones with more expertise would crack it no matter what garble of numbers and letters I used.
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haha...I have several that are 26 zeros. Much easier to type. 🙂
 
I wish they would have specified a hardware negotiation switch for 802.11n where as you hit the negotiation switch on the router and the computer and they figure out the connection encryption and passcode on the fly and individually keyed. Router can be configured to allow default connection length to be x hours.
 
Originally posted by: loup garou
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Hell my 26 digit key is 12345678901234567890123456. If that isn't the easiest code to guess I don't what is. The truth is that I'm not terribly worried about it. The fact that it shows up as a secured network would deter most potential kiddies around here, and the ones with more expertise would crack it no matter what garble of numbers and letters I used.
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haha...I have several that are 26 zeros. Much easier to type. 🙂
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I use a sentence intermingled with non sequential numbers.
 
Originally posted by: irishScott
Or we could discuss making the average joe *gasp* learn how to use it. :shocked: In most cases it's not that hard. Buying any complex piece of technology is like buying a car. You learn how to use it and how to basically maintain it. Until the average joe starts learning that computers and such are no different, then the average Joe will continue to get screwed by them. User-friendliness can only go so far.

I actually read a paper on this once. Intellectual Darwinism. If I leave my social security card on top of my mailbox and don't know it's there, it's still my fault if some random guy comes along and steals my identity. The fact that I was ignorant of it's location or didn't know how to use a file cabinet is no excuse.
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Or we can, *gasp* have a random password automatically programmed into each consumer device and the password stuck onto the device with a removable sticker. Yes, it'll be 10 cents more to manufacture and some people will make a phone call that it doesn't work before typing in the password. But, that is a small price to pay for a far more secure product shipped with no password as default.

For a bit more cash, you can have a button on the wireless device and a small screen that randomly selects and displays the password. Only people with physical access will ever know the password, and at that point when someone has broken into your house you have bigger security issues to worry about than your WiFi internet access.

For even more cash, have a physical connection, touch your wireless device physically to the wireless device in order to make it work. If you can't get there in person, you can't use it. My garage door is basically like this (hold the garage door remote up to the garage door opener and simultaneously press buttons on both).

I could go on and on with very simple to implement ideas.
 
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: irishScott
Not really. Go to any residential area and connect to all of the open networks named "linksys". Then access 192.168.1.1, enter "admin" for both username and password. 9/10 times, you're in. Could wreck some serious havoc from there, especially if their computer is as unsecured as their router; and people wonder how their identity just got stolen. :roll:
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The real question is why do the people who DO know what they are doing (ie the people who manufacture and sell the WiFi products) leave the thing unsecured by default. Why is it left to the average Joe to try and figure out which security method to use and how to use it properly?

At ATOT we love to make fun of people with less knowledge than us. But we then turn around and make products that rely on the average person to do the critical portion of the legwork instead of building our products secure from the start.
Click to expand...

How exactly do you build a repeatable, secure system en masse, that works with other brands/products on the market, and is configurable still?

Show me ANY security system for wifi routers, and they all are flawed BECAUSE they have to make it easy to use and default settings.
Click to expand...

Pretty simple really. At the time of manufacture of the router, randomize the admin password on each CPU chip. Keep track of the password throughout the rest of the manufacturing process and finally print it on the bottom of the router on one of those stickers that's already down there. It'll cost a little to get integrating into manufacturing but it's hardly impractical.

Personally, I've almost never run into an insecure wireless network, or one set to default security settings.

Edit: Haha, beaten to the exact same solution by four minutes. 🙂
 
Originally posted by: yllus
Edit: Haha, beaten to the exact same solution by four minutes. 🙂
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And yet in 20 years of making these devices, no manufacturer can come up with that idea. Even DisgruntledVirus would need massive payments in order to say something that simple.
 
After I installed a wireless router for my Mom, she thought she would then have wireless *anywhere in the world*. She called me a few days after installation to tell me she was at my sister's house and the "wireless wasn't working". When I explained to her that it only worked in her house, she said "well how does that help? I could have just plugged in the phone cord thing (her name for the ethernet cable)".
 
no, but a friend of my friend's wife pronounces it "weefee" and I think it's cute.

Oh we're giving out wep keys? Mines aabb repeating.. 13pairs. Easy to count out, easy to remember.
 
I think I'm more surprised when the "average person" actually knows what WiFi is. No offense, but most people aren't that tech savvy. Each successive generation seems to be getting more comfortable with the technology, though - I know some 10 year olds who are on Facebook and use it regularly (and I don't even use Facebook). I guess that's not really too technical, but it still amazes me. Kids these days 😛
 
Originally posted by: yllus

Pretty simple really. At the time of manufacture of the router, randomize the admin password on each CPU chip. Keep track of the password throughout the rest of the manufacturing process and finally print it on the bottom of the router on one of those stickers that's already down there. It'll cost a little to get integrating into manufacturing but it's hardly impractical.

Personally, I've almost never run into an insecure wireless network, or one set to default security settings.

Edit: Haha, beaten to the exact same solution by four minutes. 🙂
Click to expand...

You guys are making it much more complicated than it needs to be. Ship the router with the wireless disabled and force, via the router software, for them to enter a password/encryption type before it can be turned on. This is similar to business class products that ship with the radios disabled and no wireless network defined or configured, you have to TELL it what you want it to do.

That along with the simple documentation included and you're all set.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
You guys are making it much more complicated than it needs to be. Ship the router with the wireless disabled and force, via the router software, for them to enter a password/encryption type before it can be turned on. This is similar to business class products that ship with the radios disabled and no wireless network defined or configured, you have to TELL it what you want it to do.

That along with the simple documentation included and you're all set.
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That'll work quite well. But of course, instead of doing something like that, we sit around and make fun of the users and not the manufacturers.
 
I'm trying to figure out why you would randomly "Grab a bunch of Netbooks" from Dell and resell them? Why would people buy them from you over buying direct and not having their warranties screwed with?
 
They do have a new security set-up scheme coming out that should help with new purchases. My father in-law bought a new Linksys router that has a push button security set-up. Evidently notebooks/media extenders/etc. are supposed to be coming out with a corresponding button. Mash the two at the same time and walla, secure network. How well this works I have no idea. Will it catch on, no clue. But if it actually works it is a step in the right direction but all the legacy stuff is going to be screwed.

But it really is not that hard to turn on WEP.
 
Originally posted by: Fritzo
I'm trying to figure out why you would randomly "Grab a bunch of Netbooks" from Dell and resell them? Why would people buy them from you over buying direct and not having their warranties screwed with?
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people don't know about outlet/coupons/deals. Warranties are exactly the same.
 
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: irishScott
Not really. Go to any residential area and connect to all of the open networks named "linksys". Then access 192.168.1.1, enter "admin" for both username and password. 9/10 times, you're in. Could wreck some serious havoc from there, especially if their computer is as unsecured as their router; and people wonder how their identity just got stolen. :roll:
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Yeah, someone just setup a new unsecured wireless network near my home. My laptop sometimes latches onto his network over my own every now and then.

There are about 5 wireless networks I can see from my kitchen including mine. All of them are using security protocol except this new one.
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time to teach him the kind of lesson that could only be taught with a copious amount of horse pr0n.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
I'd hazard a guess most all of ATOT doesn't know much about wireless networking. Even people that work with technology seem to not even understand the basics. (how many times have you seen technology people "point" omni-directional antennas at each other?)

As far as security - plenty of ways to build very large, very secure wireless networks.
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I'd love to see your average ATOT'er bend an AK flat, or overhaul an engine, or test soil and add appropriate fertilizers etc etc etc.

Point is its easy to look at technologies in our industry then laugh at others outside of it. I'm sure mechanics get a fine laugh out of the majority of the posters here when they bring the car in because it goes "grrrr GRRRR grrrr" when they drive too.

By and large people dont really have much desire to learn something they dont need to. They know "plug it in and it works" and thats goood enough for them. I'm not saying thats right or not, its simply how it is.

Theres always someone who knows something you dont. To use ones own area of expertise as the measure by which others are judged is foolish to say the least.
 
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: irishScott
Not really. Go to any residential area and connect to all of the open networks named "linksys". Then access 192.168.1.1, enter "admin" for both username and password. 9/10 times, you're in. Could wreck some serious havoc from there, especially if their computer is as unsecured as their router; and people wonder how their identity just got stolen. :roll:
Click to expand...
The real question is why do the people who DO know what they are doing (ie the people who manufacture and sell the WiFi products) leave the thing unsecured by default. Why is it left to the average Joe to try and figure out which security method to use and how to use it properly?

At ATOT we love to make fun of people with less knowledge than us. But we then turn around and make products that rely on the average person to do the critical portion of the legwork instead of building our products secure from the start.
Click to expand...


because the average joe would think he bought a broken router and return it to the store. Besides, a universal default security setting (such as admin/blank pword) is no better than no security at all.
 
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