Does society have a duty to prevent the insane from damaging it via that insanity?

[Moonbeam]

There is no legal path when someone "breaks an oath." The penalty for that is political, not legal.



No, the normal way in this country is to vote him out of office. Trump may be a fascist, and his followers certainly look like fascist followers, but he still exists in a system which permits us to vote him out.



My point is there must be proof of a specific crime in order to prosecute someone. So long as we have that, then we can prosecute the person for specific criminal offenses. I was distinguishing this from using prosecution as a campaign pitch, the way Trump did with "lock her up," because it implies a willingness to jail someone for political reasons and it's exactly how dictators behave.



The constant trashing of Clinton and saying she isn't better than Trump spilled over into the general election because some Sanders supporters actually believed it and either didn't show up to vote or else voted for someone like Gary Johnson or Jill Stein. I'm arguing that we should be more measured and cautious in our criticisms of dem candidates right now.

I would also add, in your particular case, that you offered actual praise for Trump, who is a vile, malignant piece of trash, on more than one occasion. I get that you ultimately voted for Clinton, which is fine. But many of your statements about Clinton and Trump were not accurate and didn't make a lot of sense.

If all you had said was that you preferred Bernie in the primary because you agreed with his policies more, and you thought he'd do better than Clinton against Trump, that would be a different story. But that's not all of what you said.



Yes it is. You realize the repubs would just form another political party with a different name, right? Conservatives are going to have a political party which represents their views. And if that party gets elected, the first thing they do is ban the democrats. The party isn't the issue really. It's the people in it.

Let's handle this in a democratic way.

I had to support Trump, as you put it, because I knew he would win his primary and that the Clinton response to his winning that was not the way to successfully counter him. Most democrats were simply blindsided by emotional forces they could not comprehend, to this day do not comprehend, and have no understanding of how to counter. Furthermore, and related to that lack of comprehension, democracy is dead. Democrats have learned little and nothing has fundamentally changed. Democrats simply can’t see the superior moral values that conservatives appeal to and pretend to have, value built right into our genes.

Here are a few:

1. God is real.

2. Respect for authority is vital for societies.

3. The group before the other, first order of business.

4. The sacred and pure are bound up with tradition.

Bigotry and anti immigrant sentiment is on the rise in Germany too but it is impeded by legal restraints against identification with its old name. Bad boys like to use bad boy names. It’s all about feeling worthless and the resultant craving of attention.

 

[Moonbeam]

Well, at our core we are all corruptible with our own biases. It takes knowledge to understand and appreciate that reality is specific. It has objective rules and traits. That the truth can be determined and recognized. That it should not be subjective or equivocated. It takes a society to stand for those values, people to Identify with for the Ego to accept such truths, to find them agreeable and not a threat to be challenged or ignored. The threat we face today are from people identifying with those who lie. Who deny reality. Not only is misinformation spread in this manner, so too is the contagion of accepting belief over fact.

We need a majority of our people to identify with science and education. With institutions that promote knowledge. The real threat is if we dumb ourselves down and fall prey to mass hysteria and delusions. You are correct that such a thing may topple our society. But if we understand exactly what it is, and how it is spread, perhaps we can determine ways of stopping it.

I see this as liberal paralysis, the inability to feel sure of anything. Of course we compensate for this with our vituperous assertions that everybody else is stupid.

 

[Jhhnn]

I see this as liberal paralysis, the inability to feel sure of anything. Of course we compensate for this with our vituperous assertions that everybody else is stupid.

I don't think conservatives are stupid. I think they've been emotionally manipulated in ways that cloud their judgement. They believe things about the rest of America that simply aren't true.

 

[Moonbeam]

I don't think conservatives are stupid. I think they've been emotionally manipulated in ways that cloud their judgement. They believe things about the rest of America that simply aren't true.

The polite way of saying stupid, right?

 

[woolfe9998]

The polite way of sating stupid, right?

No. Being irrational /= being stupid. Some of the most intelligent people I know aren't very rational. It has to do with the extent you allow your emotions to intrude into your cognition.

 

[Paladin3]

There is no legal basis to lock up the criminally insane?

Only if they've been convicted of a crime, not because they believe ideas you find "insane."

 

[Moonbeam]

No. Being irrational /= being stupid. Some of the most intelligent people I know aren't very rational. It has to do with the extent you allow your emotions to intrude into your cognition.

you say it as if it were under conscious volition.

 

[Moonbeam]

Only if they've been convicted of a crime, not because they believe ideas you find "insane."

Not how it is. You are saying that until a snake bites you because that is what a snake will do, you must assume the snake in front of you may act other than as snakes do. To hell with the frontal lobes, pattern recognition and the capacity to predict based on an understanding of history even when the threat is already well along in progress. You don’t think this inability to respond is what evil depends on. I don’t think you are actually worried.

 

[Jaskalas]

The polite way of sating stupid, right?

No. Being irrational /= being stupid. Some of the most intelligent people I know aren't very rational. It has to do with the extent you allow your emotions to intrude into your cognition.

I believe cognitive function can operate at a rather standard level and still fall prey to the delusions formed by one's Ego. I don't know what protection, if any, greater intelligence would play at avoiding bias. It's really just how the brain functions. The Ego will do anything to balm the failings of the ID. And if our people ID with a person like Trump... that alone will produce a mass psychosis. The dangers of a populist liar, to the mental health of a nation, cannot be underestimated.

We failed to keep them identifying with us, VS identifying with someone like him. We failed to have the charisma or the populist message necessary to keep the voters agreeable. And so they threw in with him. Not even a majority, it would seem. But enough did. And to identify with someone like that, a habitually serial liar who doesn't even have to skill to hide behind plausible deniability.... Trump unabashedly rejects reality, and thus the lemmings will follow.

It could be argued that there exists a chicken or egg scenario. Could anyone vote Trump without first being mentally ill?

After Palin, the Tea Party, and various forms of delusional thinking over the years. Is Trump really just a culmination of the party's misdeeds? But then if failing to appreciate science, education, and truth are the hallmarks of an entire political party, one large as they are with enough votes to win elections... What should we do? What can we do?

Not how it is. You are saying that until a snake bites you because that is what a snake will do, you must assume the snake in front of you may act other than as snakes do. To hell with the frontal lobes, pattern recognition and the capacity to predict based on an understanding of history even when the threat is already well along in progress. You don’t think this inability to respond is what evil depends on. I don’t think you are actually worried.

We should act. But it should be measured and calculated to effect the best outcome for as many people as possible. Not just reactionary or violent. Not brash or reckless. We must reflect, study, and understand our adversary. It is not merely Trump. Not merely the Republican Party. Our great foe is the human condition, from which we ourselves are not immune. Treading carefully is partly how we might skip becoming the monster we face. It is not a dereliction of duty to suffer the hostage taking, the survival of our nation, to avoid killing the patent along with the disease. I might argue finding the best outcome is our duty.