Do you think Unions are partly responsible for this economic disaster?

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
82
86
Originally posted by: dartworth
GM isn't going to go under...no need to fear
They can't, just like the financial bail outs. The Gov won't let GM go under, that will be the end. But, the problem remains that it's a bad investment that need serious restructuring.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: MetalMat
Originally posted by: ironwing
Originally posted by: MetalMat
Look how good the Soviet Union worked out, everyone was rich beyond their wildest dreams.

You do know that independent unions were illegal in the Soviet Union, don't you?

Edit: You also know that it was a labor union that led Poland out of communism?

Yes because independent unions would not be what the government wanted, im just making a dumb comparrison. What Im saying is that unions are a bad idea for the most part nowadays and is a big reason to why we have to keep bailing out American auto manufacturers.
I wouldn't want to be at the mercy of Construction Companies being a non Union member and I wouldn't want to buy a house built by scabs.

lol, typical union mindset... "scabs" , victim mindset, and perceived inferior work. All hallmarks of union group think. In reality a house is built by many different "skilled"(if you can call them that anymore) trades so it really only matters who the "builder" is and their reputation - not if they hire union or not.
That's why all the large Construction Companies with good reputations are Union.
 

dartworth

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
15,195
1
81
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Originally posted by: dartworth
GM isn't going to go under...no need to fear
They can't, just like the financial bail outs. The Gov won't let GM go under, that will be the end. But, the problem remains that it's a bad investment that need serious restructuring.

which is happening and has been for the last couple of years...it won't happen overnight
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
63
91
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Originally posted by: preslove
Originally posted by: SSSnail
So, what part of "PARTLY" didn't some of you get?

They're not a factor, you idiot. Unions didn't create mortgage backed securities, force lenders to offer predatory mortgages, or convince idiots to buy houses they couldn't afford.

Oh great, here comes the name calling.

But, nevermind that GM (as an example) has been operating at a loss for YEARS with billions in negative incomes. Nevermind that GM is about to go under, nevermind that it has asked for bailout before and yet to do it again. Nevermind that if it goes under the economy will be royally fucked. Yes, bad cars and decisions they have made, and among those decisions including giving in to numerous Union demands.

Yeah, go ahead and call me an idiot.

Edit: And no one in here is refuting that the other idiots in other sectors are mainly responsible for the mess.

You are an idiot because you apparently have no fucking clue as to what caused this "economic disaster" and are just blaming a group you don't like.

Please, enlighten us on how GM "operating at a loss for YEARS with billions in negative incomes," has anything to do with the housing market, financial services regulation, or any other actual factor in the current crisis.
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
82
86
Originally posted by: preslove
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Originally posted by: preslove
Originally posted by: SSSnail
So, what part of "PARTLY" didn't some of you get?

They're not a factor, you idiot. Unions didn't create mortgage backed securities, force lenders to offer predatory mortgages, or convince idiots to buy houses they couldn't afford.

Oh great, here comes the name calling.

But, nevermind that GM (as an example) has been operating at a loss for YEARS with billions in negative incomes. Nevermind that GM is about to go under, nevermind that it has asked for bailout before and yet to do it again. Nevermind that if it goes under the economy will be royally fucked. Yes, bad cars and decisions they have made, and among those decisions including giving in to numerous Union demands.

Yeah, go ahead and call me an idiot.

Edit: And no one in here is refuting that the other idiots in other sectors are mainly responsible for the mess.

You are an idiot because you apparently have no fucking clue as to what caused this "economic disaster" and are just blaming a group you don't like.

Please, enlighten us on how GM "operating at a loss for YEARS with billions in negative incomes," has anything to do with the housing market, financial services regulation, or any other actual factor in the current crisis.

You are moron then to think that I don't know what caused this melt down, and a flaming idiot for thinking that I blame this mess wholly on Unions. Even more so of a brain dead than you usually are if you think I don't pay attention to the nuances of the markets. Do some searches you effin idiot.

If I have to summarize my points in one word, it's GREED. Anyways, who the fack are the "we" that you mentioned? Nobody likes you.

Edit: on a macro level, GM is just like your joe smoe borrowing more than they can afford. Digest that you twat.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,582
2,817
136
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
That's why all the large Construction Companies with good reputations are Union.

As an underwriter in construction bonds and subdivision work, I would STRONGLY disagree.
 

PepePeru

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2005
3,846
0
0
"I'm awaiting anxiously for Union members to flame me, but you know I'm right."

No, I didn't know that.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
63
91
Originally posted by: SSSnail


You are moron then to think that I don't know what caused this melt down,

LOL. Please, explain to me what caused this financial crisis. I have not seen you make a intelligent, or even factual, point regarding the crisis.

If I have to summarize my points in one word, it's GREED.

LOL. Are you really this simple fucking minded?

Anyways, who the fack are the "we" that you mentioned? Nobody likes you.

:brokenheart:

Edit: on a macro level, GM is just like your joe smoe borrowing more than they can afford. Digest that you twat.

Again, I'm waiting on you to actually say something intelligent or relevant concerning the current financial meltdown.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,960
140
106
Originally posted by: Ns1
Only in regards to the auto industry


..job banks got to go along with bloated union contracts or loose it all.
 

dartworth

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
15,195
1
81
well this thread crashed and burned...lol

try trolling some more tomorrow SSSnail...same time, same sandbox
 

Squisher

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
21,204
66
91
Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Unions suck. They're committed to nothing but greed and protecting incompetence. Every single one would happily drive a business into bankruptcy if they could get a temporary dime a hour raise for the people that work there.

I agree completely.


Also, employers suck. They're committed to extracting the the most amount of work from you for least amount of pay. They would be more than happy to see you living destitute subservient to their every whim and desire.


Hmm, we have a dilemma here. Gee, I wonder if there is a middle ground?


I can only imagine that most here would see me as an ardent union supporter from my posts, but back in the shop they saw me as their right wing nemesis to anything that might hinder the efficient operation of the company. Believe me I'm against abuses both from management and the union.

 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
82
86
Are you serial? I'm gonna say it once, and hopefully you can go fack off and DIAF afterwards.

In case you want me to do your homework for you, here's clifs of it. Or in case you've been under a rock (because brain dead idiots know what's going on), here's the recap.

1. Guberment (herein Gub), thinks po peeple should own houses
2. Some genius pushed legislation
3. Some BIG, GINORMOUS real estate investor (no name mentioned) cashed in, saying they'd buy all mortgages
4. Some other genius came up with sub-prime grade A mortgage securities, because everybody made money, besides all they had was write up the paperwork and some BIG, GINORMOUS company will buy them all.
4a.All the world banks go "Hey, teh amercans are doing it, we want living dreams too brotha".
5. Little joe finds it's easier to buy house with no money. Little joes worldwide rejoice.
6. Big Joe finds that it's easy to fool little joes into buying
6a.Little joe refinance, bought shiets he couldn't afford with money he never had
6b.Big Joe push the housing bubble to the point of price to income wayyyyy disproportionate.
7. Rinse, repeat a few times. Little joe now gets a big surprise.
7a.Housing bubble about to bust, in come the oil speculative bubble, drove prices of everything up
7b.Little joe goes, Shiet, I can't pay for all this shit. WTF man, why can't I live the dream, da Gub is keeping me down.
8. Banks goes, OH SHIET!
9. BIG GINORMOUS real estate investor goes OH SHIEEEEETTTTTTTTTT
10. Everybody that's been feeding on the hot air bubble now goes OH, SHHHHHHHHIIIIEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTTT!!!

..... Meanwhile, flashback to an earlier time...

Big ginormous land boats manufacturers were happy, because little joes goes out to buy all da blinged out rides (with money that he doesn't have), because looky all teh equities in his house (or houses) that he can't pay fo. YO, for real my shizzo, nizzo!

Said ginormous land boats manufacturers didn't care a whole lot about Unions demands (you think I'd leave this out?) because they're making a whole lot of moolahs back then. A river of dreams really. But oh hey, suddenly gas prices became an issue (which drives up prices of other commodities as well), everybody wants smaller moar efficient cars. FAck, what do we do? Loss leaders? Nope, nobody wants them. Reduced prices? Nope, nobody wants them. Fack, all the while these manufacturers have these leeches that keep sucking them dry.

.... Snap back to present day...

Hair on fire, hair on fire!!! Halp us prease!!!

I might have left out some details.

Was that detailed enough for you, fcuking twat? Now go DIAF.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,144
12,461
136
Originally posted by: sactoking
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
That's why all the large Construction Companies with good reputations are Union.

As an underwriter in construction bonds and subdivision work, I would STRONGLY disagree.

Having worked in the industry for over 30 years, I agree with Red. The union companies do the job better, faster, safer, and generally under budget and under schedule. The non-union companies tend to have more "re-do's" to fix things they fucked up than the union companies and thus go over schedule more often.

While that may not apply in all areas, it sure does here. All too often, a project owner will hire a union contractor to come in and fix what the scab contractor fucked up...

If non-union contractors are so dammed good, why does the lion's share of work go to the union contractors, even in municipalities like Modesto that have no "Little Davis-Bacon" laws? The union contractors who pay about double the wages (triple if you count benefits) of the non-union contractors, STILL manage to outbid them on 90% of the jobs.
Sounds to me like the BIG difference is in how much goes to the owner's pocket and how much goes to the employees' pockets...
 
Jul 10, 2007
12,041
3
0
Originally posted by: sactoking
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
That's why all the large Construction Companies with good reputations are Union.

As an underwriter in construction bonds and subdivision work, I would STRONGLY disagree.

as an ATOT neffer for the past year, i strongly agree with sactoking and strong disagree with red dawn.
 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
9,976
3
71
Unions are the new exploiters. I worked a blue collar job for a couple months before the union terminated me because I refused to pay them half my paycheck in order to work where I did. They're nothing but leeches, and hopefully we'll see the last of them after this crap.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
63
91
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Are you serial? I'm gonna say it once, and hopefully you can go fack off and DIAF afterwards.

In case you want me to do your homework for you, here's clifs of it. Or in case you've been under a rock (because brain dead idiots know what's going on), here's the recap.

1. Guberment (herein Gub), thinks po peeple should own houses
2. Some genius pushed legislation
3. Some BIG, GINORMOUS real estate investor (no name mentioned) cashed in, saying they'd buy all mortgages
4. Some other genius came up with sub-prime grade A mortgage securities, because everybody made money, besides all they had was write up the paperwork and some BIG, GINORMOUS company will buy them all.
4a.All the world banks go "Hey, teh amercans are doing it, we want living dreams too brotha".
5. Little joe finds it's easier to buy house with no money. Little joes worldwide rejoice.
6. Big Joe finds that it's easy to fool little joes into buying
6a.Little joe refinance, bought shiets he couldn't afford with money he never had
6b.Big Joe push the housing bubble to the point of price to income wayyyyy disproportionate.
7. Rinse, repeat a few times. Little joe now gets a big surprise.
7a.Housing bubble about to bust, in come the oil speculative bubble, drove prices of everything up
7b.Little joe goes, Shiet, I can't pay for all this shit. WTF man, why can't I live the dream, da Gub is keeping me down.
8. Banks goes, OH SHIET!
9. BIG GINORMOUS real estate investor goes OH SHIEEEEETTTTTTTTTT
10. Everybody that's been feeding on the hot air bubble now goes OH, SHHHHHHHHIIIIEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTTT!!!

..... Meanwhile, flashback to an earlier time...

Big ginormous land boats manufacturers were happy, because little joes goes out to buy all da blinged out rides (with money that he doesn't have), because looky all teh equities in his house (or houses) that he can't pay fo. YO, for real my shizzo, nizzo!

Said ginormous land boats manufacturers didn't care a whole lot about Unions demands (you think I'd leave this out?) because they're making a whole lot of moolahs back then. A river of dreams really. But oh hey, suddenly gas prices became an issue (which drives up prices of other commodities as well), everybody wants smaller moar efficient cars. FAck, what do we do? Loss leaders? Nope, nobody wants them. Reduced prices? Nope, nobody wants them. Fack, all the while these manufacturers have these leeches that keep sucking them dry.

.... Snap back to present day...

Hair on fire, hair on fire!!! Halp us prease!!!

I might have left out some details.

Was that detailed enough for you, fcuking twat? Now go DIAF.


You did not connect your two points. Please tell me (you can even use your moranic drivel language, if you want) how your two points have ANYTHING to do with each other.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,144
12,461
136
Originally posted by: TehMac
Unions are the new exploiters. I worked a blue collar job for a couple months before the union terminated me because I refused to pay them half my paycheck in order to work where I did. They're nothing but leeches, and hopefully we'll see the last of them after this crap.

Was the job in a place that had a closed-shop agreement? If so, the problem is YOURS, not the union's. The EMPLOYEES negotiated that closed shop agreement.

Why should you get the benefits of the many things the union negotiated for its paying members and things the members gave up wage increases to get?

Don't like it? Work somewhere else.
 

MaxDepth

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2001
8,757
43
91
No.


The economic downturn was caused by unchecked greed. See the article on Merrill Lynch.


"TYPICAL of those who dealt in Wall Street?s dizzying and opaque financial arrangements, Merrill ended up getting burned, former executives say, by inadequately assessing the risks it took with newfangled financial products ? an error compounded when it held on to the products far too long."
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
82
86
Originally posted by: preslove
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Are you serial? I'm gonna say it once, and hopefully you can go fack off and DIAF afterwards.

In case you want me to do your homework for you, here's clifs of it. Or in case you've been under a rock (because brain dead idiots know what's going on), here's the recap.

1. Guberment (herein Gub), thinks po peeple should own houses
2. Some genius pushed legislation
3. Some BIG, GINORMOUS real estate investor (no name mentioned) cashed in, saying they'd buy all mortgages
4. Some other genius came up with sub-prime grade A mortgage securities, because everybody made money, besides all they had was write up the paperwork and some BIG, GINORMOUS company will buy them all.
4a.All the world banks go "Hey, teh amercans are doing it, we want living dreams too brotha".
5. Little joe finds it's easier to buy house with no money. Little joes worldwide rejoice.
6. Big Joe finds that it's easy to fool little joes into buying
6a.Little joe refinance, bought shiets he couldn't afford with money he never had
6b.Big Joe push the housing bubble to the point of price to income wayyyyy disproportionate.
7. Rinse, repeat a few times. Little joe now gets a big surprise.
7a.Housing bubble about to bust, in come the oil speculative bubble, drove prices of everything up
7b.Little joe goes, Shiet, I can't pay for all this shit. WTF man, why can't I live the dream, da Gub is keeping me down.
8. Banks goes, OH SHIET!
9. BIG GINORMOUS real estate investor goes OH SHIEEEEETTTTTTTTTT
10. Everybody that's been feeding on the hot air bubble now goes OH, SHHHHHHHHIIIIEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTTT!!!

..... Meanwhile, flashback to an earlier time...

Big ginormous land boats manufacturers were happy, because little joes goes out to buy all da blinged out rides (with money that he doesn't have), because looky all teh equities in his house (or houses) that he can't pay fo. YO, for real my shizzo, nizzo!

Said ginormous land boats manufacturers didn't care a whole lot about Unions demands (you think I'd leave this out?) because they're making a whole lot of moolahs back then. A river of dreams really. But oh hey, suddenly gas prices became an issue (which drives up prices of other commodities as well), everybody wants smaller moar efficient cars. FAck, what do we do? Loss leaders? Nope, nobody wants them. Reduced prices? Nope, nobody wants them. Fack, all the while these manufacturers have these leeches that keep sucking them dry.

.... Snap back to present day...

Hair on fire, hair on fire!!! Halp us prease!!!

I might have left out some details.

Was that detailed enough for you, fcuking twat? Now go DIAF.


You did not connect your two points. Please tell me (you can even use your moranic drivel language, if you want) how your two points have ANYTHING to do with each other.

Sorry, I thought I'd dumb it down so you'd understand. Anyways, since you seems a bit daft, allow me to connect the dots.

You see, little joes buy shits that he can't afford, but he only borrows hundreds of thousands at most (pipe it before you say "yeah, but many of them adds up", I've considered this too). Your Unions laden land yacht manufacturers were borrowing to the tunes of BILLIONS, that's over 9000. You see, all that money didn't just come from nowhere, and on a speculative returns of a heap of craptacular vehicles all the while they still have to pay unionized workers.

Class, dismiss. I went to get some delicious fish tacos and I will now enjoy them. And yes, to summarize my points again, GREED!
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
63
91
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Originally posted by: preslove
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Are you serial? I'm gonna say it once, and hopefully you can go fack off and DIAF afterwards.

In case you want me to do your homework for you, here's clifs of it. Or in case you've been under a rock (because brain dead idiots know what's going on), here's the recap.

1. Guberment (herein Gub), thinks po peeple should own houses
2. Some genius pushed legislation
3. Some BIG, GINORMOUS real estate investor (no name mentioned) cashed in, saying they'd buy all mortgages
4. Some other genius came up with sub-prime grade A mortgage securities, because everybody made money, besides all they had was write up the paperwork and some BIG, GINORMOUS company will buy them all.
4a.All the world banks go "Hey, teh amercans are doing it, we want living dreams too brotha".
5. Little joe finds it's easier to buy house with no money. Little joes worldwide rejoice.
6. Big Joe finds that it's easy to fool little joes into buying
6a.Little joe refinance, bought shiets he couldn't afford with money he never had
6b.Big Joe push the housing bubble to the point of price to income wayyyyy disproportionate.
7. Rinse, repeat a few times. Little joe now gets a big surprise.
7a.Housing bubble about to bust, in come the oil speculative bubble, drove prices of everything up
7b.Little joe goes, Shiet, I can't pay for all this shit. WTF man, why can't I live the dream, da Gub is keeping me down.
8. Banks goes, OH SHIET!
9. BIG GINORMOUS real estate investor goes OH SHIEEEEETTTTTTTTTT
10. Everybody that's been feeding on the hot air bubble now goes OH, SHHHHHHHHIIIIEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTTT!!!

..... Meanwhile, flashback to an earlier time...

Big ginormous land boats manufacturers were happy, because little joes goes out to buy all da blinged out rides (with money that he doesn't have), because looky all teh equities in his house (or houses) that he can't pay fo. YO, for real my shizzo, nizzo!

Said ginormous land boats manufacturers didn't care a whole lot about Unions demands (you think I'd leave this out?) because they're making a whole lot of moolahs back then. A river of dreams really. But oh hey, suddenly gas prices became an issue (which drives up prices of other commodities as well), everybody wants smaller moar efficient cars. FAck, what do we do? Loss leaders? Nope, nobody wants them. Reduced prices? Nope, nobody wants them. Fack, all the while these manufacturers have these leeches that keep sucking them dry.

.... Snap back to present day...

Hair on fire, hair on fire!!! Halp us prease!!!

I might have left out some details.

Was that detailed enough for you, fcuking twat? Now go DIAF.


You did not connect your two points. Please tell me (you can even use your moranic drivel language, if you want) how your two points have ANYTHING to do with each other.

Sorry, I thought I'd dumb it down so you'd understand. Anyways, since you seems a bit daft, allow me to connect the dots.

You see, little joes buy shits that he can't afford, but he only borrows hundreds of thousands at most (pipe it before you say "yeah, but many of them adds up", I've considered this too). Your Unions laden land yacht manufacturers were borrowing to the tunes of BILLIONS, that's over 9000. You see, all that money didn't just come from nowhere, and on a speculative returns of a heap of craptacular vehicles all the while they still have to pay unionized workers.

Class, dismiss. I went to get some delicious fish tacos and I will now enjoy them. And yes, to summarize my points again, GREED!

Do you srsly believe that what you just wrote makes any sense?
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
82
86
Do I have to break down to you what liabilities are? And how much those liabilities cost when you don't have money? And how your inability to pay back will affect the economy? You're just too obtuse and too wrapped up in your denial to see anything passed 3 feet in front of you. I bid you adieu, and DIAF.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
well unions certainly didn't create ridiculous executive pay totally unrelated to job performance.

and its not like our car industries are competing with 3rd world cheap labor without things like health coverage:p
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
63
91
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Do I have to break down to you what liabilities are? And how much those liabilities cost when you don't have money? And how your inability to pay back will affect the economy? You're just too obtuse and too wrapped up in your denial to see anything passed 3 feet in front of you. I bid you adieu, and DIAF.

Again, you have NEVER provided a single link between GM and it's "liabilities," and the World Wide Financial Meltdown of 2008.

This is because there is no link.

Idiot.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
Originally posted by: sactoking
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
That's why all the large Construction Companies with good reputations are Union.

As an underwriter in construction bonds and subdivision work, I would STRONGLY disagree.

as an ATOT neffer for the past year, i strongly agree with sactoking and strong disagree with red dawn.
Now there's no need to insult sactoking like that.