Do you think Roger Clemens did steroids?

[James3shin]

Originally posted by: purbeast0

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: Modeps
Aint no way a guy Roger's age could throw the ball as well without a little extra help from something.

You mean the B-12 and Lidocaine?

there was an anesthesiologist on the sports talk radio yesterday and he was saying now Lidocaine is never EVER used in situations Clemens explained that he used it in. he was saying it's basically a numbing solution and that injecting it directly into muscles would have no positive benefits at all and couldn't understand why one would do it. all it would do is basically numb the muscle.

he was saying that if clemens injected it into his ass all it would do is numb his ass.

needless to say the anesthesiologist thinks he's guilty as charged.

Roger said the Lidocaine was used to numb the areas that were causing him pain. I believe hockey players also numb pain spots to keep playing.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: James3shin

Originally posted by: purbeast0

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: Modeps
Aint no way a guy Roger's age could throw the ball as well without a little extra help from something.

You mean the B-12 and Lidocaine?

there was an anesthesiologist on the sports talk radio yesterday and he was saying now Lidocaine is never EVER used in situations Clemens explained that he used it in. he was saying it's basically a numbing solution and that injecting it directly into muscles would have no positive benefits at all and couldn't understand why one would do it. all it would do is basically numb the muscle.

he was saying that if clemens injected it into his ass all it would do is numb his ass.

needless to say the anesthesiologist thinks he's guilty as charged.

Roger said the Lidocaine was used to numb the areas that were causing him pain. I believe hockey players also numb pain spots to keep playing.

Like tendons, muscles and joints. Not your ass. And you'd have the injections performed by a doctor.

 

[bigrash]

He's guilty. So is Bonds.

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: puffff

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
The phone conversation was completely BS. Why didn't Clemens ask McMamee why he lied(if he did)? You'd think Clemens would want to know why McMamee made that stuff-up, if he really did.

Guilty

Clemens had to be careful about what he said. He definitely did not want to come across as coercing a federal witness.

Of course, Clemens had lawyers with him while he was taping the conversation. One reason why there was silence and no words from Clemens when McMamee asked 21 times to Clemens what Clemens wanted him to do to fix things.

But you'd think Clemens would want to know why McMamee made that stuff-up about him if he indeed was lying. He wasn't lying about Pettite why lie about Clemens.

I do think Clemens did roids, but like it was mentioned above, he couldn't answer what he wanted done to "fix things" - he could get in some trouble for that. Would you have risked talking to McNamee without your lawyer's advice if you were Clemens?

The main problem for Clemens is that I don't see any reason why McNamee would have lied, and the fact that Pettitte came out and admitted it just makes things worse for Roger. Like Red said, I'll reserve final judgement until we hear what happens when Clemens testifies, but if I had to guess, but he probably did use steroids.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Modeps
Aint no way a guy Roger's age could throw the ball as well without a little extra help from something.

You think Nolan Ryan did Roids?

ripken is another that comes to mind.

Ryan had 3 good years thrown into the last decade of his career. For the most part, he had a higher ERA, less strike outs, and pitched less innings. He also had medicore W-L ratios except for those 3 seasons.

Nolan Ryan played for the stinkin Rangers... of course he's going to have a worse WL ratio... However, I believe his WL ratio with the Rangers was higher than the Rangers WL ratio without Ryan.

Comparably, Clemens numbers in his last few seasons are some of the best of his career.

Do you know if he was throwing faster these last few years?

And Ripken? Ripken just stayed average offensively (that's all he was for most of his career) and his defensive performance declined greatly over the last 5 years of his career (which may also be associated with his move to 3rd).

Hey, what about Charlie Hough!? He pitched until he was 46! (yeah I know he was a knuckle baller)

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
The phone conversation was completely BS. Why didn't Clemens ask McMamee why he lied(if he did)? You'd think Clemens would want to know why McMamee made that stuff-up, if he really did.

Guilty

Clemens has to be careful on what he asks and how he asks it. He doesn't want to come across as manipulating or pressuring. A legal expert last night thought the tape was great evidence for Clemens and he did well not to cross the line.

BTW, my personal opinion is that he didn't do it.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: HomeBrewerDude

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Modeps
Aint no way a guy Roger's age could throw the ball as well without a little extra help from something.

You think Nolan Ryan did Roids?

ripken is another that comes to mind.

Ryan had 3 good years thrown into the last decade of his career. For the most part, he had a higher ERA, less strike outs, and pitched less innings. He also had medicore W-L ratios except for those 3 seasons.

Nolan Ryan played for the stinkin Rangers... of course he's going to have a worse WL ratio... However, I believe his WL ratio with the Rangers was higher than the Rangers WL ratio without Ryan.

Comparably, Clemens numbers in his last few seasons are some of the best of his career.

Do you know if he was throwing faster these last few years?

And Ripken? Ripken just stayed average offensively (that's all he was for most of his career) and his defensive performance declined greatly over the last 5 years of his career (which may also be associated with his move to 3rd).

Hey, what about Charlie Hough!? He pitched until he was 46! (yeah I know he was a knuckle baller)

What are you guys trying to argue here?

None of the people you guys have mentioned have had seasons in the twilight of their careers like Clemens.

So what if Ryan pitched for the Rangers? Good pitchers still pitch well and put up good numbers, regardless of the team. Sure it can make the difference between 12-8 or 10-10, but it's not going to change some of Ryan's seasons like 5-9 and 8-16.

As for Clemens speed, I don't have anything definitive but watching home over the past few years he was still throwing hard IMHO. You'd have to look it up yourself to see how hard he was throwing.

And Charlie Hough? What about him? He pitched mediocre at best during his last few seasons. Hell, he didn't even have a winning record for the last 6 years of his careers.

Do you people not realize how truly dominating Clemens and Bonds were when their careers should've been winding down?

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
The phone conversation was completely BS. Why didn't Clemens ask McMamee why he lied(if he did)? You'd think Clemens would want to know why McMamee made that stuff-up, if he really did.

Guilty

Clemens has to be careful on what he asks and how he asks it. He doesn't want to come across as manipulating or pressuring. A legal expert last night thought the tape was great evidence for Clemens and he did well not to cross the line.

BTW, my personal opinion is that he didn't do it.

Correct. And he didn't want McMamee to incriminate Clemens again that he's a steroid pumping junkie.

So, Clemens calls to inquire about McMamee's ten year old sick child knowing that he's really calling with lawyers to tape without permission a conversion that doesn't clarify anything.

All it shows are the actions of a desperate man(Clemens).

 

[FoBoT]

got poll?

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

Hough was a joke.... his last 10 years were painful to watch IMO. Granted, my joke wasn't very funny.

My point was you can't really look at WL without factoring in overall team performance.

I'll see if I can dig up some velocity stats.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: HomeBrewerDude
Hough was a joke.... his last 10 years were painful to watch IMO. Granted, my joke wasn't very funny.

My point was you can't really look at WL without factoring in overall team performance.

I'll see if I can dig up some velocity stats.

You're absolutely correct. Hell, the best example was Clemens on the Astros. The guy had a friggin' 2.30 ERA and finished 7-6. He just did not get run support at all during 2006. I forget how many games he lost 1-0 or 2-1. This was really an anomaly though.

Texas wasn't THAT bad when Ryan was on them.

 

[blurredvision]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: James3shin

Originally posted by: purbeast0

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: Modeps
Aint no way a guy Roger's age could throw the ball as well without a little extra help from something.

You mean the B-12 and Lidocaine?

there was an anesthesiologist on the sports talk radio yesterday and he was saying now Lidocaine is never EVER used in situations Clemens explained that he used it in. he was saying it's basically a numbing solution and that injecting it directly into muscles would have no positive benefits at all and couldn't understand why one would do it. all it would do is basically numb the muscle.

he was saying that if clemens injected it into his ass all it would do is numb his ass.

needless to say the anesthesiologist thinks he's guilty as charged.

Roger said the Lidocaine was used to numb the areas that were causing him pain. I believe hockey players also numb pain spots to keep playing.

Like tendons, muscles and joints. Not your ass. And you'd have the injections performed by a doctor.

I watched the press conference yesterday afternoon, and I'm pretty sure he said that the shots were into his lower back. He about said upper-ass, but didn't and just stuck with lower back. In fact, I don't think I recall him ever saying anything about either substance being injected into his ass.

As for the doctor bit, he said that he assumed McNamee was medically trained and never gave thought to check it out (which sounds like a load of BS, but what do I know?).

IMO, there's not enough evidence to say he did use steroids, just one guy who has a dying son and may have made up some stuff so he wouldn't be in jail when his son dies. He's innocent until proven guilty, and that's the way the press should be treating it. I don't blame Clemens for being angry during the press conference, I didn't mind him lashing out at questions.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Modeps
Aint no way a guy Roger's age could throw the ball as well without a little extra help from something.

You think Nolan Ryan did Roids?

ripken is another that comes to mind.

Ryan had 3 good years thrown into the last decade of his career. For the most part, he had a higher ERA, less strike outs, and pitched less innings. He also had medicore W-L ratios except for those 3 seasons.

Comparably, Clemens numbers in his last few seasons are some of the best of his career.

And Ripken? Ripken just stayed average offensively (that's all he was for most of his career) and his defensive performance declined greatly over the last 5 years of his career (which may also be associated with his move to 3rd).

I doubt Nolan Ryan did steroids. He was a great pitcher because he pitched 7 no hitters, but even a jacked-up pitcher couldn't do that. That's a feat of luck and talent. Pitching has a lot to do with strength, but more with knowing how to trick the batter into taking swings. Ryan was able to work the ball.

 

[PimpJuice]

Petitte is his best friend, and Clemens says he had no idea and was surprised that Petitte took them? BS

Clemens roided and theres no doubt in my mind.

 

[Josh]

http://sports.espn.go.com/broa...574&categoryId=2378529

 

[Pabster]

Guilty as charged.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: HomeBrewerDude
Hough was a joke.... his last 10 years were painful to watch IMO. Granted, my joke wasn't very funny.

My point was you can't really look at WL without factoring in overall team performance.

I'll see if I can dig up some velocity stats.

You're absolutely correct. Hell, the best example was Clemens on the Astros. The guy had a friggin' 2.30 ERA and finished 7-6. He just did not get run support at all during 2006. I forget how many games he lost 1-0 or 2-1. This was really an anomaly though.

Texas wasn't THAT bad when Ryan was on them.

Yeah, they weren't really horrible, but only slightly above 50/50. Ryan winning percentage was roughly double the teams between 89-91, but was worse or the same during 92 and 93 and he was hurt much of the time those last two years.

year.......................starts...wins...losses.ERA..TEAMW?L
1989 Tex AL 32 16 10 3.20..83/79
1990 Tex AL 30 13 9 3.44...83/79
1991 Tex AL 27 12 6 2.91...85/77
1992 Tex AL 27 5 9 3.72...77/85
1993 Tex AL 13 5 5 4.88...86/76

Anyways, the point is that Ryan really did pull the team in a winning direction between 89-91. The last two years he was just hurt and it showed. I do not think he did steroids though, but who the hell knows? Clemens on the other hand:

2003 40 NYY AL 17 9 3.91 ....101/61
2004 41 HOU NL 18 4 2.98 ....92/70
2005 42 HOU NL 13 8 1.87 ....89/73
2006 43 HOU NL 7 6 2.3 ....82/80
2007 44 NYY AL 6 6 4.18....94/68

 

[Josh]

I don't understand..if his son was dieing and him and Roger were friends why wouldn't he ask his really rich friend for a loan to save his son's life rather than try and destroy his reputation and most likely get nothing out of it that would save his son's life? I'm so confused.

 

[Miramonti]

Originally posted by: Josh
I don't understand..if his son was dieing and him and Roger were friends why wouldn't he ask his really rich friend for a loan to save his son's life rather than try and destroy his reputation and most likely get nothing out of it that would save his son's life? I'm so confused.

I concur, you're confused.

The trainer didn't try and destroy anyone's reputation, he told the truth about who he injected with steroids to the feds imo to avoid going to jail. The hardship on both families is his greatest regret and that's what precipitated the phone call to clemens, atleast that's what I took out of the taped conversation.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: jjsole

Originally posted by: Josh
I don't understand..if his son was dieing and him and Roger were friends why wouldn't he ask his really rich friend for a loan to save his son's life rather than try and destroy his reputation and most likely get nothing out of it that would save his son's life? I'm so confused.

I concur, you're confused.

The trainer didn't try and destroy anyone's reputation, he told the truth about who he injected with steroids to the feds imo to avoid going to jail. The hardship on both families is his greatest regret and that's what precipitated the phone call to clemens, atleast that's what I took out of the taped conversation.

Yup. While there isn't any direct evidence against Clemens, the circumstantial stuff is pretty meaty.

First, we know his long-time friend and workout buddy Andy confessed to using HGH.
Second, we know that McNamee was under intense pressure from the feds and that he understood that lying to them would mean jail-time.
Third, we know that others McNamee named, including cases were the evidence was not very strong, have come forward and admitted their usage (Brian Roberts is the best example).
Fourth, if we line up the dates that McNamee claims he injected Clemens with 'roids with his performance we see significant spikes in ability. Granted, Clemens also performed well in seasons that McNamee did not mention. This is probably the weakest evidence.

The first piece of evidence is surprising because Clemens denies all knowledge of Andy's usage. Even if he didn't take steroids, I can't imagine that he had NO idea that Andy was taking them. The second piece is probably the most damning - what reason would McNamee have for trying to frame Clemens? Besides jail-time, I can't really see anything he stood to gain.

 

[edro]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
The phone conversation was completely BS. Why didn't Clemens ask McMamee why he lied(if he did)? You'd think Clemens would want to know why McMamee made that stuff-up, if he really did.

Guilty

I agree.

The phone call seemed so set up.

I don't care if he took roids or not.

All the beating around the bush.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I'll reserve judgement until after McNamee and Clemens testify under oath before the Senate.

Like nobody's ever lied THERE before.... really, a SENATE hearing??? good grief, if anone ever needed a red herring during a crisis, here it is. All dressed up in Red,White and Blue, no less.

What's the issue the Senate needs to address, the violation of The National Trust by Over Paid , Professional Sports Entertainers??? Easier to cast stones than to clean house, I guess.
Please, Nothing about "Professional Sports" indicates that it is anything but the largest , most shiney of trinkets ever used to distract a populace.
Mao said that 'religion is the opiate of the masses'. Well, he didn't know about Professional Sports a la American Pro Baseball..

 

[Red Dawn]

Clemens is right about one thing, for some there's nothing he can say or do to convince them he's innocent. In this day an age just the accusation of taking Steriods is enough for many to judge one guilty.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
The first piece of evidence is surprising because Clemens denies all knowledge of Andy's usage. Even if he didn't take steroids, I can't imagine that he had NO idea that Andy was taking them. The second piece is probably the most damning - what reason would McNamee have for trying to frame Clemens? Besides jail-time, I can't really see anything he stood to gain.

Pettitte admitted using HGH twice to recover from an injury while he was on the DL and was in Florida, not with the team. I don't find it difficult to believe Clemens had no knowledge of it.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I'll reserve judgement until after McNamee and Clemens testify under oath before the Senate.

Like nobody's ever lied THERE before.... really, a SENATE hearing??? good grief, if anone ever needed a red herring during a crisis, here it is. All dressed up in Red,White and Blue, no less.

What's the issue the Senate needs to address, the violation of The National Trust by Over Paid , Professional Sports Entertainers??? Easier to cast stones than to clean house, I guess.
Please, Nothing about "Professional Sports" indicates that it is anything but the largest , most shiney of trinkets ever used to distract a populace.
Mao said that 'religion is the opiate of the masses'. Well, he didn't know about Professional Sports a la American Pro Baseball..

:roll: