Do you think it's okay to pirate a game if a demo is never released?

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Again - I have NEVER had a CSR, let alone a manager argue with me about a software return that I said was defective - and that's for a refund. So it's an inconvenience to you. Imagine the inconvenience to the software manufacturer when several thousand people decide to pirate a game and not pay for it period, whether they like it or not.

Game isn't opened, you can get a refund.

Game is opened (and supposedly defective), you will get another copy of the game. Sometimes they only give you a disc so you don't get two CD keys.

 

[mundane]

No, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over the people who do.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Pugnate
You pirating motherfuckers are killing the industry. What is worse is the only people to argue against those whose games are being stolen are the ones stealing these games. No wonder the PC gaming industry is being killed.

looks like someone missed the op-ed piece by the creator of Sins of a Solar Empire
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...ht_key=y&keyword1=sins

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: Maleficus
this is becoming tiring, what are you getting at? are you honestly trying to tell me that because I know the game is an FPS I can make a sound decision as a consumer? are all FPS games the same? should we just make them all First Person Shooter #? No, they all have their quirks and game play elements that make them unique and fun, as well as quality control that make them playable or not. Box art doesn't tell me shit. I'm not getting a 'toaster that toasts', I'm paying for an experience, one whose outcome I have no real way of determining.

You're absolutely right - it is getting tiring listening to people try to justify illegal action. I never said all FPS games are created the same. I never said that gameplay elements or control don't make them unique and fun. I'm telling you that your expectations mean jack shit - you're buying a title based on assumptions and expectations. The only valid expectation that you can legitimately have is whether it will physically run or not. Whether you like it or not, well do your (legal) research first.

Stop for just one second playing the righteous defender of all those terribly mistreated software companies, realize the intent of 'piracy' (bias name anyone?), and see that it is a valid consumer tool when used properly.

A demo is definitely a valid consumer tool. Piracy of the full product is not a demo.

The most effective tool for stopping piracy is a simple cd-key. not copy protection, not any of that bullshit. In an atmosphere such as today's where the major selling point is online gameplay, and not one single group TRIES to defeat that, you will see that the point is to provide users with a means to test the product.

I agree. And THAT is the problem with PC gaming (and console gaming these days - mod chips etc)... so much effort is being put into PREVENTING people like Canai from doing what they do that the software is being fundamentally broken as above because of it. It's because of pirate actions that people think they have to resort to piracy to see if a title is any good before buying it. There are enough people out there in the world that will happily give you both biased and unbiased opinions on a title that you can make an informed decision on whether to but it or not with or without a demo.

Originally posted by: Canai
Yeah. I smoke pot occasionally, that's illegal. I drank when I was in high school, that was illegal. I jaywalked earlier today. That was illegal too. I don't give a flying fuck if it's illegal. I have my own moral principles, based on my own experiences, and I fail to see how it should be considered stealing.

And there you go. You fail to see what is commonly accepted and on the law books. If you don't like it, attempt to legally change the laws. You are the reason that titles get crappier and crappier and why DRM exists.

B. I will try it out, and if I like it, buy it

Between these two options, the publisher/devs stand to make money ONLY from the second choice. If the game is bad and gets uninstalled, nobody loses anything. Nothing gets stolen. It's like reading a book in a bookstore.

C. I will try it out, and then think to myself, "Hey, I didn't get caught smoking pot OR downloading this game... so why should I bother paying for it!". :roll: You're a fine upstanding citizen for making it right... after the fact.

Piracy is NOT ruining PC gaming. It may have a small impact, but it's not the main, or even a major cause.

So what's the difference between pirating a game and not buying it? There is none from where the publisher is concerned.

The publisher has to invest time, effort and money into DRM to combat piracy, which detracts from the title, which can also make the reception of the title in the community bad (DRM crashes...), which in turn causes them to lose more sales because people that would like the content but who would have had fewer issues with the title if the anti-piracy measures weren't in place are now hearing that the title sucks (because of technical issues, not content) and therefore are not buying it.

Around here, you can exchange a game ONLY for the same game, never for credit or refund. And if you try to return the sealed new one (which is illegally bypassing corporate policy. hypocrite much? ) they just look at your reciept and say, oh this is a return, GTFO.

Oh, and I'm calling bullshit on your return stories. The company policies of the retailers around here (Best Buy, Circuit City, EB Games) all specify opened software can only be exchanged for the same software. Unless the company policies vary greatly from state to state, bullshit.

Call bullshit all you want. And how, pray tell is one circumventing corporate policy by following corporate policy to return software? Everywhere I've gone, where I've had an issue with the software (mind you I have NEVER returned a title simply because the "content" sucked), I have never had a problem. In cases where I've had titles with content that sucked, hell - one man's trash is another man's treasure. Craigslist, FS/FT, eBay... the main different is that I am not lazy.

 

[TecHNooB]

Try before you buy is one thing. Most people try--the whole thing--and never buy.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Maleficus

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Canai

Originally posted by: Maleficus

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Canai
Yes. Try before you buy is the way to go.

We've had this discussion before - but what happens if you "try" and decide not to buy? You've just taken all the legitimacy out of the ethics of your statement.

not really, you try it, decide it sucks, uninstall it.

decision made.

piracy is only bad if you use it to obtain something you want/enjoy with no intention of paying for it regardless of how much you like it.

This.

... is illegal. There is nothing else in consumer goods (unless explicitly given - more later) that doesn't require you to pay for it, unless it specifically says "try before you buy". Most retailers have generous enough policies that if the item doesn't function like it should, you can return it for an exchange (if materially defective) or refund (if technically defective). Software is the same. If there is no sanctioned "try before you buy" (a demo), then you're plain stealing. It's the same as walking into Walmart, picking up a toaster and saying, "Gee, I think I'll try this for a few days to see if I like it" without stopping at the checkout on the way out. Don't try to say there is no material damages, because there is.

except with 99% of other goods, such as a toaster, you know exactly what you are getting, you see what it will provide right on the box. Without a demo, and even WITH most demos, you don't know what you're getting when you buy a game. you have an IDEA, but it's like getting a birthday gift and hoping you know what it is by the size, there is really no way to tell without opening it up and finding out.

I believe most software titles have box art do they not? I believe you're fairly well informed what to expect when you're buying a game that says "First Person Shooter" or "MMORPG" on the box. Your argument fails.

For example, you say "well the gameplay sucked, the controls are shit and the story line sucks".
But is it a FPS?
"Well... yes, but it sucked."
But is it a FPS?
"I just said yes..."
Then you got what you expected.

Take the previously mentioned toaster. The box has a picture of a toaster on it. You imply "hey, it toasts things". You take it home, and realize "Oh shit... it doesn't do bagels and english muffins! This toaster is crap!"

But is it a toaster?

You need to have reasonable expectations when it comes to software, just like when you're buying anything else.

is having it work or work properly a reasonable expectation? you don't get that with PC games.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: SunnyD
You need to have reasonable expectations when it comes to software, just like when you're buying anything else.

is having it work or work properly a reasonable expectation? you don't get that with PC games.

Is a toaster that only designed to toast sliced bread considered working properly if it only toasts sliced bread, but bagels, english muffins, etc? It's still considered a toaster correct?

A "reasonable" expectation would follow that if the bagel or english muffin was similar in dimension to a slice of bread, that the toaster should toast it correct? However the developer designed it such that it would detect what was inserted and hence not toast anything but regular sliced bread. Is this particular toaster considered defective simply because it does not meet YOUR expectations, or does it fulfill it's designed intentions? Therefore your expectations are that the toaster is more than it actually is...

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

So what's the difference between pirating a game and not buying it? There is none from where the publisher is concerned.

The publisher has to invest time, effort and money into DRM to combat piracy, which detracts from the title, which can also make the reception of the title in the community bad (DRM crashes...), which in turn causes them to lose more sales because people that would like the content but who would have had fewer issues with the title if the anti-piracy measures weren't in place are now hearing that the title sucks (because of technical issues, not content) and therefore are not buying it.
[/quote]

and which DRM scheme has completely stopped piracy? i don't think one has so they should just drop it and not waste money on it.

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: SunnyD
You need to have reasonable expectations when it comes to software, just like when you're buying anything else.

is having it work or work properly a reasonable expectation? you don't get that with PC games.

Is a toaster that only designed to toast sliced bread considered working properly if it only toasts sliced bread, but bagels, english muffins, etc? It's still considered a toaster correct?

A "reasonable" expectation would follow that if the bagel or english muffin was similar in dimension to a slice of bread, that the toaster should toast it correct? However the developer designed it such that it would detect what was inserted and hence not toast anything but regular sliced bread. Is this particular toaster considered defective simply because it does not meet YOUR expectations, or does it fulfill it's designed intentions? Therefore your expectations are that the toaster is more than it actually is...

 

[Canai]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
And there you go. You fail to see what is commonly accepted and on the law books. If you don't like it, attempt to legally change the laws. You are the reason that titles get crappier and crappier and why DRM exists.

:roll: Sorry but I don't follow every law ever made. What is commonly accepted and is on the law books is often wrong. If you can, and do, follow every law to the letter, more power to you. But nobody I know follows every law, and I doubt many people do. The laws regarding copyright and IP are outdated and unapplicable today, and are badly in need of reformation.

Originally posted by: SunnyD
C. I will try it out, and then think to myself, "Hey, I didn't get caught smoking pot OR downloading this game... so why should I bother paying for it!". You're a fine upstanding citizen for making it right... after the fact.

Well, where I live, smoking is not a crime. Downloading is not a crime either. Uploading is. If a game appeals to me, I buy it. If it doesn't, I don't. Wondering whether or not I should pay for it never crosses my mind. If I like it, I buy it and play it. If I don't, I don't.

Originally posted by: SunnyD
The publisher has to invest time, effort and money into DRM to combat piracy, which detracts from the title, which can also make the reception of the title in the community bad (DRM crashes...), which in turn causes them to lose more sales because people that would like the content but who would have had fewer issues with the title if the anti-piracy measures weren't in place are now hearing that the title sucks (because of technical issues, not content) and therefore are not buying it.

Not true at all. Look at Sins of a Solar Empire... No copy protection whatsoever, yet it's selling like crazy. Where are your evil pirates now?

Also, ANY DRM can by bypassed with ease. There are countless ways to get around it, and I've had to get around it on titles that I purchased.

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Call bullshit all you want. And how, pray tell is one circumventing corporate policy by following corporate policy to return software? Everywhere I've gone, where I've had an issue with the software (mind you I have NEVER returned a title simply because the "content" sucked), I have never had a problem. In cases where I've had titles with content that sucked, hell - one man's trash is another man's treasure. Craigslist, FS/FT, eBay... the main different is that I am not lazy.

You are circumventing the retailer's policy. Which one takes precidence in this case, retailer or publisher? I honestly don't know, but I know retailers do not allow returns. I don't know if you can then call up the publisher and mail them the game and get a check in the mail, but that seems very unlikely to me. If you can, that would be great. I have a few shit games that I bought recently that I could use the money from. But I guess I'm lazy so...

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: SunnyD
You need to have reasonable expectations when it comes to software, just like when you're buying anything else.

is having it work or work properly a reasonable expectation? you don't get that with PC games.

Is a toaster that only designed to toast sliced bread considered working properly if it only toasts sliced bread, but bagels, english muffins, etc? It's still considered a toaster correct?

A "reasonable" expectation would follow that if the bagel or english muffin was similar in dimension to a slice of bread, that the toaster should toast it correct? However the developer designed it such that it would detect what was inserted and hence not toast anything but regular sliced bread. Is this particular toaster considered defective simply because it does not meet YOUR expectations, or does it fulfill it's designed intentions? Therefore your expectations are that the toaster is more than it actually is...

I'd expect any toaster to be able to toast bagels and english muffins.

A better analogy would be a book, in a bookstore. You can't judge a book by it's cover (just like you can't judge a game by it's box ), so you write down the name of the book, read the inside of the covers, or you read an exerpt in some publication. This is the demo. Doesn't give you a good look at the book whole book, only what the publisher wanted you to read.

and/or

You go to the bookstore, sit down with the book you have been thinking about buying, and you read for an hour. Either the book grabs you and you buy it, or the book sucks and you put it back. This is the try before you buy. Gives you a much better look at the content of the book, and allows you to read more of it, and get a better idea if it's worth your time and money.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Pugnate
You pirating motherfuckers are killing the industry. What is worse is the only people to argue against those whose games are being stolen are the ones stealing these games. No wonder the PC gaming industry is being killed.

looks like someone missed the op-ed piece by the creator of Sins of a Solar Empire
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...ht_key=y&keyword1=sins

There's a few op-ed pieces by equally credible devs giving the counterpoint, that piracy is a major problem in the industry. One of the TQ devs posted a blog when they went under, it was posted here as well.

As for pirates, they're the main reason I have no problem with DRM, monthly fees or having to activate online etc. I'm also the kind of person that will report people who cheat in online games without hesitation and smile when their shit gets hacked or they catch a virus.

 

[Maleficus]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Pugnate
You pirating motherfuckers are killing the industry. What is worse is the only people to argue against those whose games are being stolen are the ones stealing these games. No wonder the PC gaming industry is being killed.

looks like someone missed the op-ed piece by the creator of Sins of a Solar Empire
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...ht_key=y&keyword1=sins

There's a few op-ed pieces by equally credible devs giving the counterpoint, that piracy is a major problem in the industry. One of the TQ devs posted a blog when they went under, it was posted here as well.

As for pirates, they're the main reason I have no problem with DRM, monthly fees or having to activate online etc. I'm also the kind of person that will report people who cheat in online games without hesitation and smile when their shit gets hacked or they catch a virus.

That's a rather idiotic mentality that only serves to punish you.

the DRM/Protection will ALWAYS get cracked, and the people who use th epirated software will enjoy a hassle-free experience, while you, the end user who paid for the product has to put up with the DRM bullshit.



As for this: I'm telling you that your expectations mean jack shit - you're buying a title based on assumptions and expectations. The only valid expectation that you can legitimately have is whether it will physically run or not. Whether you like it or not, well do your (legal) research first.

all this says to me is you enjoy having your hands tied behind your back when making decisions, that's a pretty stupid thing to put up with.

buy a new car? -> test drive
buy a new tv? -> in store model, full demonstration
buy a new game? -> randomly give some company money and pray to god you like it cause if not you just got boned outta 50 bucks...

no thanks.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: pontifex
and which DRM scheme has completely stopped piracy? i don't think one has so they should just drop it and not waste money on it.

And that's my point. It hasn't. All it has done is frustrate developers which is causing the quality of a title to go down (or in some cases, close completely - re: Titan Quest). You can't blame the developers for the push toward DRM, you can thank the pirates for that.

I know, it's stupid isn't it. But it's the truth.

Originally posted by: Canai
:roll: Sorry but I don't follow every law ever made. What is commonly accepted and is on the law books is often wrong. If you can, and do, follow every law to the letter, more power to you. But nobody I know follows every law, and I doubt many people do. The laws regarding copyright and IP are outdated and unapplicable today, and are badly in need of reformation.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on all of those counts. Imagine that.

Well, where I live, smoking is not a crime. Downloading is not a crime either. Uploading is. If a game appeals to me, I buy it. If it doesn't, I don't. Wondering whether or not I should pay for it never crosses my mind. If I like it, I buy it and play it. If I don't, I don't.

Possession is, and therefore smoking it is. Downloading a title without authorization is indeed a crime - it's theft. The difference is publishers and rights owners have more to gain by shutting down uploaders - if no one is uploading then no one can download.

Anyway, like I said - you're a fine upstanding citizen... after the fact.

Not true at all. Look at Sins of a Solar Empire... No copy protection whatsoever, yet it's selling like crazy. Where are your evil pirates now?

Also, ANY DRM can by bypassed with ease. There are countless ways to get around it, and I've had to get around it on titles that I purchased.

And Stardock and Iron Clad has both specifically stated they aren't worried about piracy because they have a quality product that they know the people interested in it are going to buy it... period. They are the exception to the common rule, and yes, I agree that others should take a look at them as an example of how to do it right.

As far as bypassing DRM - of course it can be bypassed with ease - because that's what pirates do to keep their way of life. As a side effect, it enables people that legitimately bought the title to bypass DRM... but in every case, I guarantee the primary intent was for piracy. And then (again, see Titan Quest) people get pissed because the DRM-bypass hacks then makes the title unstable, hence it gets a bad reputation, and there you go - sales suffer.

You are circumventing the retailer's policy. Which one takes precidence in this case, retailer or publisher? I honestly don't know, but I know retailers do not allow returns. I don't know if you can then call up the publisher and mail them the game and get a check in the mail, but that seems very unlikely to me. If you can, that would be great. I have a few shit games that I bought recently that I could use the money from. But I guess I'm lazy so...

I am not circumventing anything. In every single case except one, I simply returned the title without any issues because I had legitimate technical issues with the software. Only once did I have to "exchange" an opened piece of software before returning it because of the open box policy - and in that case I did so with the manager present, told him my intentions, and was told that as long as the box was sealed, he would have no problems with it.

I'd expect any toaster to be able to toast bagels and english muffins.

A better analogy would be a book, in a bookstore. You can't judge a book by it's cover (just like you can't judge a game by it's box ), so you write down the name of the book, read the inside of the covers, or you read an exerpt in some publication. This is the demo. Doesn't give you a good look at the book whole book, only what the publisher wanted you to read.

You're absolutely right - you would expect the toaster to do so... but in the manufacturer's eyes you are wrong, because they designed that toaster to toast bread. As far as the book example, you're exactly correct - that's what the publisher wants you to read. The box art on a title is what the publisher wants you to see about the game. Reviews in a publication are your best guess to what it's going to be like. This is the legitimate way to go about it. If you don't feel comfortable with it - don't buy the book or title.

You go to the bookstore, sit down with the book you have been thinking about buying, and you read for an hour. Either the book grabs you and you buy it, or the book sucks and you put it back. This is the try before you buy. Gives you a much better look at the content of the book, and allows you to read more of it, and get a better idea if it's worth your time and money.

See this one gets me... the big book stores seem to act as libraries these days. I have no idea why, and it seems to me they condone this "form" of piracy. I dunno... I think that may be why most bookstores have coffee shops in them - so that while you're spending several hours not buying books you'll at least spend some money on coffee. I don't really understand what their mode of business is in this case - it's definitely a strange business model. But then again, you can also go to a library and read the same book for free too.

Originally posted by: Maleficus
That's a rather idiotic mentality that only serves to punish you.

the DRM/Protection will ALWAYS get cracked, and the people who use th epirated software will enjoy a hassle-free experience, while you, the end user who paid for the product has to put up with the DRM bullshit.

And if pirates didn't pirate, developers wouldn't need to implement DRM. It's a paradox - those that are doing the illegal are causing pain for those that are legal. Same as shoplifting - part of the price of an item at a store is the store's "shrink" that's built in to the price. They wouldn't need to pad the price if people didn't shoplift.

As for this: I'm telling you that your expectations mean jack shit - you're buying a title based on assumptions and expectations. The only valid expectation that you can legitimately have is whether it will physically run or not. Whether you like it or not, well do your (legal) research first.

all this says to me is you enjoy having your hands tied behind your back when making decisions, that's a pretty stupid thing to put up with.

buy a new car? -> test drive
buy a new tv? -> in store model, full demonstration
buy a new game? -> randomly give some company money and pray to god you like it cause if not you just got boned outta 50 bucks...

no thanks.

That's your opinion. Question is an economy of scale - when you "test" a software title, how long will you need? A test drive - 10 minutes of time - is going to give you a good idea of a car. 10 minutes in front of a TV at a store will give you a good idea. Will 10 minutes give you a good idea in a game? How about a movie - how many movies have you seen where the first 1/4 of the movie was slow and boring, but man did it build up awesome at the end? A game? What's 1/4 of a game... or 1/2? Depends on the game... but odds are you'll need at least a day... and in that day you'll probably have "enjoyed" a good amount of the content in that game. Sorry, it doesn't sit right with me at this point to say "oh, I don't like the game so I'm not going to pay for it". You aren't going to spend half a day at an amusement park and decide you want your money back because it sucks. Or what about a basketball game... or an opera? I could go on.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Maleficus
That's a rather idiotic mentality that only serves to punish you.

the DRM/Protection will ALWAYS get cracked, and the people who use th epirated software will enjoy a hassle-free experience, while you, the end user who paid for the product has to put up with the DRM bullshit.

And how does that punish me? I've never had DRM eat my CD-ROM drive, break my OS or kick my dog. I've never been locked out of an online account for suspicion of hacking or stealing a game.

I have on the other hand

1) seen people banned and kicked for cheating/stealing/hacking games
2) seen people have all their shit hacked and stolen after using 3rd party programs and hacked software.

And then they throw their hands up and wonder how it happened to them. As if it never occurred to them the same jackasses looking to get around paying a few bucks for a game wouldn't use that knowledge for more lucrative applications.....

As for this: I'm telling you that your expectations mean jack shit - you're buying a title based on assumptions and expectations. The only valid expectation that you can legitimately have is whether it will physically run or not. Whether you like it or not, well do your (legal) research first.

all this says to me is you enjoy having your hands tied behind your back when making decisions, that's a pretty stupid thing to put up with.

buy a new car? -> test drive
buy a new tv? -> in store model, full demonstration
buy a new game? -> randomly give some company money and pray to god you like it cause if not you just got boned outta 50 bucks...

no thanks.

Why not use a far more applicable comparison like....

buy a cd? > listen to it on the radio
watch a movie? > watch a preview

Fact remains you can find any excuse you like to not pay for a game until you've actually played it. There's far more ways now than before to get a good idea of how a game plays besides a game demo, pirating or buying. With the increasing popularity of Youtube and other streaming video sites along with the normal reviews/previews you can easily decide whether a game is something you'd like or not without having to illegally pirate it.

 

[Canai]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
I wholeheartedly agree with you on all of those counts. Imagine that.

I can't believe it

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Possession is, and therefore smoking it is. Downloading a title without authorization is indeed a crime - it's theft. The difference is publishers and rights owners have more to gain by shutting down uploaders - if no one is uploading then no one can download.

Actually, the city I live in allows up to 30-something grams in a household. And possession tickets are on the same level as parking tickets. Hooray.

Originally posted by: SunnyD
I am not circumventing anything. In every single case except one, I simply returned the title without any issues because I had legitimate technical issues with the software. Only once did I have to "exchange" an opened piece of software before returning it because of the open box policy - and in that case I did so with the manager present, told him my intentions, and was told that as long as the box was sealed, he would have no problems with it.

It's cool that you can do that at your local stores. It doesn't work like that here unfortunately. I got store credit when I returned an unopened copy of a game once, but other than that, you can only exchange for a copy of the same title.

Originally posted by: SunnyD
See this one gets me... the big book stores seem to act as libraries these days. I have no idea why, and it seems to me they condone this "form" of piracy. I dunno... I think that may be why most bookstores have coffee shops in them - so that while you're spending several hours not buying books you'll at least spend some money on coffee. I don't really understand what their mode of business is in this case - it's definitely a strange business model. But then again, you can also go to a library and read the same book for free too.

This, I believe, will be the future of IP rights. Like movies and TV on hulu and joost and the like. I think games will move to an episodic, pay for play mode, but with a twist: episodes only cost money when they are the most recent, eg. Episode2 would still cost money, but Episode1 and HL2 would be free, or maybe with EP1 and EP2 costing money and just HL2 free, distributed through a system like steam, where accounts are bound to IP addresses or CC# or something like that. That way people would still get the games for free, but if they wanted to play the new content right when it came out, they'd pay. That was a company could launch a free intro to their game, and if it's awesome, people will line up to pay when the next episode launches.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Maleficus

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Pugnate
You pirating motherfuckers are killing the industry. What is worse is the only people to argue against those whose games are being stolen are the ones stealing these games. No wonder the PC gaming industry is being killed.

looks like someone missed the op-ed piece by the creator of Sins of a Solar Empire
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...ht_key=y&keyword1=sins

There's a few op-ed pieces by equally credible devs giving the counterpoint, that piracy is a major problem in the industry. One of the TQ devs posted a blog when they went under, it was posted here as well.

As for pirates, they're the main reason I have no problem with DRM, monthly fees or having to activate online etc. I'm also the kind of person that will report people who cheat in online games without hesitation and smile when their shit gets hacked or they catch a virus.

That's a rather idiotic mentality that only serves to punish you.

the DRM/Protection will ALWAYS get cracked, and the people who use th epirated software will enjoy a hassle-free experience, while you, the end user who paid for the product has to put up with the DRM bullshit.



As for this: I'm telling you that your expectations mean jack shit - you're buying a title based on assumptions and expectations. The only valid expectation that you can legitimately have is whether it will physically run or not. Whether you like it or not, well do your (legal) research first.

all this says to me is you enjoy having your hands tied behind your back when making decisions, that's a pretty stupid thing to put up with.

buy a new car? -> test drive
buy a new tv? -> in store model, full demonstration
buy a new game? -> randomly give some company money and pray to god you like it cause if not you just got boned outta 50 bucks...

no thanks.

That's why it's ok to sneak into theatres to watch movies and pay after you liked it, to steal meals at restaurants and pay after if you like it, to steal wine and pay later if you like it...

Some game players will pay, but trusting the average game player to do so is a fool's approach, IMO, and I'd like to see them have good protection available against piracy.

 

[Martimus]

Originally posted by: Owls

Originally posted by: Martimus
No. I just won't buy it if I am on the fence about buying it and no demo is available. I have already gotten my identity stolen once, and don't feel like opening myself up to having it happen a second time by using P2P programs.

Tell us where the big bad P2P touched you. I suspect you aren't giving us the whole story either. What was the offending P2P software that you used?

My guess is that you googled for "P2P software" and you downloaded something unsavory. Either way, you didn't know what you were doing and got taken.

Downloading "stuff" from P2P is pretty safe overall, especially if you read the comments of the torrents, many times people will post that such and such torrent is spyware or has a virus.

I don't remember what I was using. It was before torrents were around anyway. I think it was eDonkey or Kazaa (it was after Limewire was released), and I didn't plan on using it long. Either way, it didn't have any comments, like what you are talking about. Since I don't pirate stuff, I have no idea what you are talking about, nor do I really care to.

You can blame this on ignorance, but the truth is that it just isn't worth it for me to learn the proper way to pirate. That seems like a waste of my time, when I can just buy what I want. It isn't like pirating is some sort of art I or anyone should be proud of. It would be like trying to learn how to fix my transmission when I can just hire someone else to do it. I doubt I will need to do that very much, so learning how to do it would be a complete waste of my effort.

 

[AVP]

Moderator's comments are why this site is now useless. Anyways, my take is that I pirate the stuff I woudln't normally buy. If i am genuinely interested/excited about a game, I'll make the purchase. That said, I buy 3-4 games a year, and download about that many.

 

[Maleficus]

That's your opinion. Question is an economy of scale - when you "test" a software title, how long will you need? [...]

I can decide if a game sucks usually within 1-2 minutes of actual gameplay.
I don't go to the movies because 99% of movies suck so hard.


And how does that punish me? I've never had DRM eat my CD-ROM drive, break my OS or kick my dog. I've never been locked out of an online account for suspicion of hacking or stealing a game.

You are REALLY lucky then, amazing how all these people that defend these positions are all the ones who, amazingly, have had no problem returning software for money or had 0 problems with drm...

Also stop comparing 'piracy' with hacking/cheating, totally separate things.

[...]to steal meals at restaurants and pay after if you like it, to steal wine and pay later if you like it...

These are consumables, don't be an idiot. And just so you know, there are restaurants out there that actually allow you to do just that, and they have been very successful.

 

[SunnyD]

You suck at quoting btw.

Originally posted by: Maleficus
That's your opinion. Question is an economy of scale - when you "test" a software title, how long will you need? [...]

I can decide if a game sucks usually within 1-2 minutes of actual gameplay.
I don't go to the movies because 99% of movies suck so hard.

I agree, there are going to be a few titles that you're going to know in a few minutes. A good game is like a movie... you're not going to be able to give it a fair shot unless you get a way into it.

And how does that punish me? I've never had DRM eat my CD-ROM drive, break my OS or kick my dog. I've never been locked out of an online account for suspicion of hacking or stealing a game.

You are REALLY lucky then, amazing how all these people that defend these positions are all the ones who, amazingly, have had no problem returning software for money or had 0 problems with drm...

Also stop comparing 'piracy' with hacking/cheating, totally separate things.

Personally - there are plenty of people in that position, you just refuse to accept it because the world is out to get you.

[...]to steal meals at restaurants and pay after if you like it, to steal wine and pay later if you like it...

These are consumables, don't be an idiot. And just so you know, there are restaurants out there that actually allow you to do just that, and they have been very successful.

Everything is a consumable in this world. Even entertainment. Especially entertainment. It's a great example.

 

[potato28]

Yes, but only if there's no hope of a demo.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: Maleficus
That's your opinion. Question is an economy of scale - when you "test" a software title, how long will you need? [...]

I can decide if a game sucks usually within 1-2 minutes of actual gameplay.

I need about 10 minutes. If a game can't grab me in 10 minutes, it won't grab me in 20, or 60, or 3 days.

 

[xtabi]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Canai

Originally posted by: Maleficus

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Canai
Yes. Try before you buy is the way to go.

We've had this discussion before - but what happens if you "try" and decide not to buy? You've just taken all the legitimacy out of the ethics of your statement.

not really, you try it, decide it sucks, uninstall it.

decision made.

piracy is only bad if you use it to obtain something you want/enjoy with no intention of paying for it regardless of how much you like it.

This.

... is illegal. There is nothing else in consumer goods (unless explicitly given - more later) that doesn't require you to pay for it, unless it specifically says "try before you buy". Most retailers have generous enough policies that if the item doesn't function like it should, you can return it for an exchange (if materially defective) or refund (if technically defective). Software is the same. If there is no sanctioned "try before you buy" (a demo), then you're plain stealing. It's the same as walking into Walmart, picking up a toaster and saying, "Gee, I think I'll try this for a few days to see if I like it" without stopping at the checkout on the way out. Don't try to say there is no material damages, because there is.

The point is at least you can return the toaster. Try returning crap software at Best Buy by explaining you had it for a day and did not like it.

I'm all for trying a game if there is no demo out before buying it. I've done it before and the games I liked I honestly did go out and buy. The games I disliked I stopped playing because.....I disliked them....and did not buy it.

Until retailers find a way other than to issue you a store credit to return software and no demos exist I willl continue to try before buy.

I am an honest person so it does not bother me to do what I do. And the developers that have a problem with it should look more closely at the reasons this happens vs. try stopping it altogether.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

So what's the difference between pirating a game and not buying it? There is none from where the publisher is concerned.

Seriously did you just try to justify piracy with that statement?


Question for you:
What's the difference between buying a game and just giving the publisher $50 for nothing? There is none as far as the publisher is concerned.

 

[Fenixgoon]

of the games i have recently bought:

crysis - demo.
gears of war - played on 360, enjoyed
jade empire - picked it up for cheap, enjoyed it. if it had sucked, i wouldn't have lost much
orange box - epic win. didn't need a demo to tell me TF2 would rock

i do wish people would release demos for their games though. it helps give a much better idea of what the game will be like.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: SunnyD
So what's the difference between pirating a game and not buying it? There is none from where the publisher is concerned.

Seriously did you just try to justify piracy with that statement?

Question for you:
What's the difference between buying a game and just giving the publisher $50 for nothing? There is none as far as the publisher is concerned.

What's with the copious amounts of white space in your post?

Anyway, no, I didn't justify it - financially the difference is nothing, in other words the publisher isn't getting paid for it. On the balance sheet though, you can mark down each pirated copy as a loss.

Your second question (and you work for MS, you should be well aware of this) - you're paying for the right to play the game, whether you play it for 5 minutes or 5 years.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. It's idiotic listening to people try to justify this.