Do you think its a bad thing most kids today won't remember what happened at Ruby Ridge?

[IMaN00BieGF]

I don't know about it.. 🙁

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Ruby Ridge...Waco...

Perfect examples that at the end of the day the government is supreme and you have NO rights.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in Utah with that one guy who has a "cult". (Cant think of his name right off, I'm just frickin dumb this morning)

Once they labeled that group a "cult" they took a major step towards removing that group of peoples constitutional protections. If it escalates to a media event like Waco then the government wil be able to do virtually anything they want and the majority of people will not care.

Are you saying Waco wasn't a cult?

Not at all, they were a cult but that does not mean they are less deserving of constitutional protections. They certainly did not deserve to be used as a botched media opportunity for the BATF which was then shrugged off by the public because they were "nothing but a cult led by that wacko Koresh".

Do you know what was actually going on in this cult? The raping and molestation of children. The brainwashing of people.

I'm not sure how that should be "constituionally protected".

err he didnt say raping children should be "contituionally protected" he says that even though what they were doing is wrong the goverment still has to fallow the laws.

"they were a cult but that does not mean they are less deserving of constitutional protections"

Additionally, Did the goverment break any laws during the Wako stand off? It's been years since this was brought up. Refresh my memory if they did. I wasn't aware they did anything right. The FBI was approved the recommendation from Janet Reno to raid and do the final assault.

The original assault on the Waco compound had nothing to do with child molestation, it was a weapons charge. The BATF wanted to use it as a photo op for some political debate that was taking place at that time regarding gun control so they notified the media that they were planning the assult rather than simply arrest Mr Koresh during one of his visits to the town. Everything escalated from that botched first attempt.

 

[raildogg]

Most people probably don't even know about Waco and about the abuse of power there by the government. The soldiers who were outside of the compound acted like barbarians and completely lied. There is actual footage of them acting like looters rather than professional soldiers.

We lied in Waco and killed innocent people. Who took the blame for that one?

Originally posted by: BDawg
I think a bigger problem is the people who attribute Ruby Ridge to the Clinton Admin.

Hooray, Clinton is the best!!!! Hooray!!! Clinton! Clinton! Clinton!

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Linflas
The original assault on the Waco compound had nothing to do with child molestation, it was a weapons charge. The BATF wanted to use it as a photo op for some political debate that was taking place at that time regarding gun control so they notified the media that they were planning the assult rather than simply arrest Mr Koresh during one of his visits to the town. Everything escalated from that botched first attempt.

yeap the accusations of mollestation came out AFTER it happened.

 

[pulse8]

I'm 27 and I've never heard of Ruby Ridge until now.

Now that I've read what it's about I'm not sure why it would've been helpful to me to know what it was previously.

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Ruby Ridge...Waco...

Perfect examples that at the end of the day the government is supreme and you have NO rights.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in Utah with that one guy who has a "cult". (Cant think of his name right off, I'm just frickin dumb this morning)

Once they labeled that group a "cult" they took a major step towards removing that group of peoples constitutional protections. If it escalates to a media event like Waco then the government wil be able to do virtually anything they want and the majority of people will not care.

Are you saying Waco wasn't a cult?

Not at all, they were a cult but that does not mean they are less deserving of constitutional protections. They certainly did not deserve to be used as a botched media opportunity for the BATF which was then shrugged off by the public because they were "nothing but a cult led by that wacko Koresh".

Do you know what was actually going on in this cult? The raping and molestation of children. The brainwashing of people.

I'm not sure how that should be "constituionally protected".

err he didnt say raping children should be "contituionally protected" he says that even though what they were doing is wrong the goverment still has to fallow the laws.

"they were a cult but that does not mean they are less deserving of constitutional protections"

Additionally, Did the goverment break any laws during the Wako stand off? It's been years since this was brought up. Refresh my memory if they did. I wasn't aware they did anything right. The FBI was approved the recommendation from Janet Reno to raid and do the final assault.

The original assault on the Waco compound had nothing to do with child molestation, it was a weapons charge. The BATF wanted to use it as a photo op for some political debate that was taking place at that time regarding gun control so they notified the media that they were planning the assult rather than simply arrest Mr Koresh during one of his visits to the town. Everything escalated from that botched first attempt.

"In 1992, a UPS delivery driver alerted the local deputy sheriff that empty grenade casings had been delivered to the Davidians at Mount Carmel. The sheriff notified the ATF and requested their help. This led to an investigation of the Davidians that lasted several months, and ultimately resulted in allegations of weapons violations committed by the Davidians. In addition, former Davidians told ATF that Koresh had taught his followers to be prepared for a government assault. The ATF began planning its raid, and search and arrest warrants were issued in early 1993."

"The Waco Tribune-Herald was pressuring authorities to take some sort of action against the Davidians. Some Waco residents were wary of the growing number of people and weapons residing in the Mount Carmel complex. Rumors of child abuse, which a Child Protective Services investigation was unable to substantiate, were floating around, and, as noted above, the Tribune-Herald ran a series of articles on the possible threat presented by the Davidians. The very day before the raid by ATF officers, the Tribune-Herald criticized the law enforcement agencies for failing to take action. This series of articles, however, was instigated by members of the Cult Awareness Network and depicted the Branch Davidians as cultists and David Koresh as a deranged and manipulative cult leader who brainwashed his followers."

"Holding evidence that the Davidians had violated federal law, the ATF obtained search and arrest warrants for Koresh and specific followers, and they planned their raid for March 1, 1993. However, they moved it up a day in response to the start of the Waco Tribune-Herald series."

You may want to actually read up on this stuff. You're conspiracy theories are great though.

Additionally, the FBI and ATF really did nothing wrong. Regardless if it was a publicity stunt (as your tinhat says), but the fact that the Davidians had a 51 day stand off against the FBI and law enforcement.

I bet the ATF and FBI KNEW before hand that they would have a stand off. Those guys are pretty smart cookies, you know?

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Linflas
The original assault on the Waco compound had nothing to do with child molestation, it was a weapons charge. The BATF wanted to use it as a photo op for some political debate that was taking place at that time regarding gun control so they notified the media that they were planning the assult rather than simply arrest Mr Koresh during one of his visits to the town. Everything escalated from that botched first attempt.

yeap the accusations of mollestation came out AFTER it happened.

COMPLETELY and UTTERLY untrue.

"A local newspaper, the Waco Tribune-Herald, began on February 27, 1993 what it called the ?Sinful Messiah? series [2]. It alleged that Koresh had physically abused children in the building and taken underage brides, even raping one of them. Koresh was also said to advocate polygamy for himself, and declared himself married to several female residents of the small community. His sect was said by some to be a cult because of its authoritarian structure. Survivors of the raids, former members, and families of members have widely varying accounts of the group's beliefs, practices, and demeanor."

"On February 28, 1993, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) raided the Branch Davidian ranch at Mount Carmel, a rural area near Waco, Texas. "

"The very day before the raid by ATF officers, the Tribune-Herald criticized the law enforcement agencies for failing to take action. This series of articles, however, was instigated by members of the Cult Awareness Network and depicted the Branch Davidians as cultists and David Koresh as a deranged and manipulative cult leader who brainwashed his followers."

Yeah, AFTER the raid. Please read up on this stuff.

 

[thirtythree]

I don't know what Ruby Ridge is.

 

[GRIFFIN1]

Click here to watch a video about Waco.

This video was definately not made by the ATF. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the "facts" aren't true.

Rent this video from netflix if you want to see more stuff about how evil the government is. Again, this documentarty isn't "fair and balanced", but it goes into even more detail on what the government did wrong and how they covered things up.

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: GRIFFIN1
Click here to watch a video about Waco.

This video was definately not made by the ATF. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the "facts" aren't true.

Rent this video from netflix if you want to see more stuff about how evil the government is. Again, this documentarty isn't "fair and balanced", but it goes into even more detail on what the government did wrong and how they covered things up.

Can't watch it, I'm at work.

What's it go into?

 

[squirrel dog]

A whole lot won't remember what happened yesterday .

 

[Linflas]

You may want to actually read up on this stuff. You're conspiracy theories are great though.

Sorry I don't think there is any grand conspiracy at work with Waco. Personally I attribute it to typical government stupidity, heavy handedness, and the infinite desire of bureaucrats to cover their asses whenever possible with lots of FUD.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: GRIFFIN1
Click here to watch a video about Waco.

This video was definately not made by the ATF. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the "facts" aren't true.

Rent this video from netflix if you want to see more stuff about how evil the government is. Again, this documentarty isn't "fair and balanced", but it goes into even more detail on what the government did wrong and how they covered things up.

I think I saw the second link on the documentary channel. It was extremely powerful and very sad. It deeply moved me.

What our government did there was nothing short of a crime.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: squirrel dog
A whole lot won't remember what happened yesterday .

i err. shoveled sand! and ha a ribeye for dinner hmm

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Ruby Ridge...Waco...

Perfect examples that at the end of the day the government is supreme and you have NO rights.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in Utah with that one guy who has a "cult". (Cant think of his name right off, I'm just frickin dumb this morning)

Once they labeled that group a "cult" they took a major step towards removing that group of peoples constitutional protections. If it escalates to a media event like Waco then the government wil be able to do virtually anything they want and the majority of people will not care.

Are you saying Waco wasn't a cult?

Not at all, they were a cult but that does not mean they are less deserving of constitutional protections. They certainly did not deserve to be used as a botched media opportunity for the BATF which was then shrugged off by the public because they were "nothing but a cult led by that wacko Koresh".

Do you know what was actually going on in this cult? The raping and molestation of children. The brainwashing of people.

I'm not sure how that should be "constituionally protected".

It was consensual, but that doesn't make it right. The women chose to be there. Their children and others were there too.

That in no way gives government the right to kill people there and lie about it. Especially when they cannot hide the truth from coming out. The government has completely lost my trust.

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: Linflas

You may want to actually read up on this stuff. You're conspiracy theories are great though.

Sorry I don't think there is any grand conspiracy at work with Waco. Personally I attribute it to typical government stupidity, heavy handedness, and the infinite desire of bureaucrats to cover their asses whenever possible with lots of FUD.

We all know the Gov covers their asses - that's part of the job. I don't agree that any "constitutional protections" were broken or taken away. People like the Davidians and Koresh should go down. I think they Gov knew before hand and the media forced their hand to do something - by going public with a story that they weren't doing anything. I don't think the Gov used them before hand to start this. That's all, just a difference of opinion.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Linflas

You may want to actually read up on this stuff. You're conspiracy theories are great though.

Sorry I don't think there is any grand conspiracy at work with Waco. Personally I attribute it to typical government stupidity, heavy handedness, and the infinite desire of bureaucrats to cover their asses whenever possible with lots of FUD.

We all know the Gov covers their asses - that's part of the job. I don't agree that any "constitutional protections" were broken or taken away. People like the Davidians and Koresh should go down. I think they Gov knew before hand and the media forced their hand to do something - by going public with a story that they weren't doing anything. I don't think the Gov used them before hand to start this. That's all, just a difference of opinion.

Wow, so people who differ from you should all be killed?

Why are there so many true believers in this country?

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Linflas

You may want to actually read up on this stuff. You're conspiracy theories are great though.

Sorry I don't think there is any grand conspiracy at work with Waco. Personally I attribute it to typical government stupidity, heavy handedness, and the infinite desire of bureaucrats to cover their asses whenever possible with lots of FUD.

We all know the Gov covers their asses - that's part of the job. I don't agree that any "constitutional protections" were broken or taken away. People like the Davidians and Koresh should go down. I think they Gov knew before hand and the media forced their hand to do something - by going public with a story that they weren't doing anything. I don't think the Gov used them before hand to start this. That's all, just a difference of opinion.

why s hould they have been killed? they were not found guilty of anything.

If they were engaged in child mollestation sure. but thats for the courts to decide NOT the BATF or police.

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Linflas

You may want to actually read up on this stuff. You're conspiracy theories are great though.

Sorry I don't think there is any grand conspiracy at work with Waco. Personally I attribute it to typical government stupidity, heavy handedness, and the infinite desire of bureaucrats to cover their asses whenever possible with lots of FUD.

We all know the Gov covers their asses - that's part of the job. I don't agree that any "constitutional protections" were broken or taken away. People like the Davidians and Koresh should go down. I think they Gov knew before hand and the media forced their hand to do something - by going public with a story that they weren't doing anything. I don't think the Gov used them before hand to start this. That's all, just a difference of opinion.

Wow, so people who differ from you should all be killed?

Why are there so many true believers in this country?

Where did I EVER say they should be killed. How about you quit putting words in other peoples mouths and acting like an idiot.

It alleged that Koresh had physically abused children in the building and taken underage brides, even raping one of them. They also had weapons charges. They should have turned themselves in and done it through the judicial system if they were innocent. Having a FIFTY ONE DAY standoff is insane.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Linflas

You may want to actually read up on this stuff. You're conspiracy theories are great though.

Sorry I don't think there is any grand conspiracy at work with Waco. Personally I attribute it to typical government stupidity, heavy handedness, and the infinite desire of bureaucrats to cover their asses whenever possible with lots of FUD.

We all know the Gov covers their asses - that's part of the job. I don't agree that any "constitutional protections" were broken or taken away. People like the Davidians and Koresh should go down. I think they Gov knew before hand and the media forced their hand to do something - by going public with a story that they weren't doing anything. I don't think the Gov used them before hand to start this. That's all, just a difference of opinion.

Wow, so people who differ from you should all be killed?

Why are there so many true believers in this country?

Where did I EVER say they should be killed. How about you quit putting words in other peoples mouths and acting like an idiot.

It alleged that Koresh had physically abused children in the building and taken underage brides, even raping one of them. They also had weapons charges. They should have turned themselves in and done it through the judicial system if they were innocent. Having a FIFTY ONE DAY standoff is insane.

from your post "People like the Davidians and Koresh should go down" sorry but to me sounds like it.

if not i apologize for the post.

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Linflas

You may want to actually read up on this stuff. You're conspiracy theories are great though.

Sorry I don't think there is any grand conspiracy at work with Waco. Personally I attribute it to typical government stupidity, heavy handedness, and the infinite desire of bureaucrats to cover their asses whenever possible with lots of FUD.

We all know the Gov covers their asses - that's part of the job. I don't agree that any "constitutional protections" were broken or taken away. People like the Davidians and Koresh should go down. I think they Gov knew before hand and the media forced their hand to do something - by going public with a story that they weren't doing anything. I don't think the Gov used them before hand to start this. That's all, just a difference of opinion.

why s hould they have been killed? they were not found guilty of anything.

If they were engaged in child mollestation sure. but thats for the courts to decide NOT the BATF or police.

So explain to me why they didn't turn themselves in and go through the judicial system?

You're misisng the huge point that they had a 51 day stand off.

What was the movtive there?

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Linflas

You may want to actually read up on this stuff. You're conspiracy theories are great though.

Sorry I don't think there is any grand conspiracy at work with Waco. Personally I attribute it to typical government stupidity, heavy handedness, and the infinite desire of bureaucrats to cover their asses whenever possible with lots of FUD.

We all know the Gov covers their asses - that's part of the job. I don't agree that any "constitutional protections" were broken or taken away. People like the Davidians and Koresh should go down. I think they Gov knew before hand and the media forced their hand to do something - by going public with a story that they weren't doing anything. I don't think the Gov used them before hand to start this. That's all, just a difference of opinion.

Wow, so people who differ from you should all be killed?

Why are there so many true believers in this country?

Where did I EVER say they should be killed. How about you quit putting words in other peoples mouths and acting like an idiot.

It alleged that Koresh had physically abused children in the building and taken underage brides, even raping one of them. They also had weapons charges. They should have turned themselves in and done it through the judicial system if they were innocent. Having a FIFTY ONE DAY standoff is insane.

from your post "People like the Davidians and Koresh should go down" sorry but it sounds like it.

if not i apologize for the post.

Maybe I should have worded it differently. It's ok. I just meant taken out of their current position, locked up.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Linflas

You may want to actually read up on this stuff. You're conspiracy theories are great though.

Sorry I don't think there is any grand conspiracy at work with Waco. Personally I attribute it to typical government stupidity, heavy handedness, and the infinite desire of bureaucrats to cover their asses whenever possible with lots of FUD.

We all know the Gov covers their asses - that's part of the job. I don't agree that any "constitutional protections" were broken or taken away. People like the Davidians and Koresh should go down. I think they Gov knew before hand and the media forced their hand to do something - by going public with a story that they weren't doing anything. I don't think the Gov used them before hand to start this. That's all, just a difference of opinion.

why s hould they have been killed? they were not found guilty of anything.

If they were engaged in child mollestation sure. but thats for the courts to decide NOT the BATF or police.

So explain to me why they didn't turn themselves in and go through the judicial system?

You're misisng the huge point that they had a 51 day stand off.

What was the movtive there?

oh it wouldnt suprise me that they would be found guilty of all charges. they did have illegial guns and had the stupid stand off.

I just do not think that justifies them being murdered (yes yes conflicting reports and allt hat) or killed. I agree they should have givin up. Its not like a person is going to out wait the goverment.

 

[Itchrelief]

I find it somewhat amusing that Democrats will be up in arms about police shooting drug dealers, murderers, and rapists under a Republican administration, while Republicans will be so outraged about police shooting religious cultists and right-wing separatist/militia members under a Democratic administration.

Both sides will argue that the "perps" were bad guys who were violating laws anyways and had it coming to them for resisting the authorities.

This has high potential for Politics and News 😉.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Linflas

You may want to actually read up on this stuff. You're conspiracy theories are great though.

Sorry I don't think there is any grand conspiracy at work with Waco. Personally I attribute it to typical government stupidity, heavy handedness, and the infinite desire of bureaucrats to cover their asses whenever possible with lots of FUD.

We all know the Gov covers their asses - that's part of the job. I don't agree that any "constitutional protections" were broken or taken away. People like the Davidians and Koresh should go down. I think they Gov knew before hand and the media forced their hand to do something - by going public with a story that they weren't doing anything. I don't think the Gov used them before hand to start this. That's all, just a difference of opinion.

why s hould they have been killed? they were not found guilty of anything.

If they were engaged in child mollestation sure. but thats for the courts to decide NOT the BATF or police.

So explain to me why they didn't turn themselves in and go through the judicial system?

You're misisng the huge point that they had a 51 day stand off.

What was the movtive there?

oh it wouldnt suprise me that they would be found guilty of all charges. they did have illegial guns and had the stupid stand off.

I just do not think that justifies them being murdered (yes yes conflicting reports and allt hat) or killed. I agree they should have givin up. Its not like a person is going to out wait the goverment.

That is government propaganda. They exaggerate this stuff to make them look good. It happens all the time. The benefit should not go to the government. They acted like thugs during that whole standoff. They tortured the people inside so they would literally go insane and do something stupid and they would have reason to use force. Excessive force.

You wouldn't believe some of the tactics they used. Just awful.