Do you run a UPS?

[Eug]

Interesting response to your post at Tom's Hardware. I hadn't seen this before because I don't generally visit there, but found it just now.

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/6486-2-surge-protector

I've been following this post, as well as other posts here with Anonymous and a person named Weston. Their information regarding effectiveness (or lack-of effectiveness) of surge protector products beyond 10 ft of earth ground (service) is just not accurate. Ground is a safety measure. Good ground is important for safety. However, ground has less to do with effective surge protection than they are claiming. What these two are claiming is false. They may understand ground in general - but they don't seem to understand modern surge protection design and function. Period. Are there different designs in surge protection, some better than others? Absolutely. Is their ability to protect your equipment solely based on a good "earth" ground? Absolutely not - only if they are spark-gap units - which are very rare these days - and most certainly not found in any surge strips. So if these two are telling you plug-in surge protectors don't work (again, some better than others) because they are too far from the service entrance/"earth ground"- that's absolutely false. Modern surge protectors (again less spark-gap designs) don't "short" to ground. They may mean well, but they are uninformed at best when it comes to good surge protector units - whole home or plug-in models as ground is not nearly the factor they make it out to be. Again, good ground is good to have and should be promoted - but it's not required for a surge protector to protect the load.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Westom is partially right, but it would be false to generalize it to all UPSes.

A low cost home UPS most likely is a standby UPS so it passes through the AC with some possible surge protection but that's it. If power goes out then it switches to battery.

Then there are more advanced UPSes such as dual conversion or telco style where the batteries are constantly being charged and constantly powering the inverter which is constantly powering the load. Then there's modified square wave (when you sell, you call it modified sine wave. ) then there's pure sine. Pure sine is ideal for something that runs all the time.

 

[Smartazz]

I didn't realize so many people here had a UPS. I have a surge protector, but not a UPS. Luckily I haven't lost any work due to the fact that I quicksave a lot.

 

[wirednuts]

surge protectors have to be replaced every couple years too, due to the nature of mov's

i guess im just lucky that i live in a place where we get clean stable power all the time. we lost power once last year and it only lasted a few hours

 

[TheVrolok]

IRT line conditioning...down here during storm season my UPS logs show constant swaps to battery for seconds at a time.

This. Also for line conditioning. I have one for my desktop and one for my home theater.

 

[thescreensavers]

When I used to have a desktop I had a Belkin unit on it, worked well 45min of run time on a x2 4200 6800gt rig. Its sitting under my bed with dead batteries in it. When and if I have a use for it It needs new batteries lol.

I currently have one of the cheapest APC you can buy for my modem/router

Once I was playing WoW back in the day and the power went out a few times when I was "raiding" it was a great feeling to still be playing and not have power.

 

[Rubycon]

If you want good, clean, true zero break on transfer power it will cost you.
I like the ferroresonant UPS/conditioners. There is no discernible difference between running its inverter vs. shore power. Surge? What surge? :biggrin:

Also they have great regulation. No tap switching. Whether you're supplying it with 85 volts or 145 you will have 120V out always. Lesser units switch over to battery long before the input gets that messed up. They are more tolerant of out of frequency operation too which is important if you're running for extended periods on genny power. Not cheap though by a long shot.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I was actually looking at building my own system that is a cross between a dual conversion and standby. Basically you have a simple rectifier(fixed voltage) powering an inverter and everything always runs on the inverter. There is a battery bank hooked up to a trickle charger (amperage does not matter, unlike with a true online ups, so it's cheaper). When the power goes out it switches the inverter over to the battery bank. The biggest issue is the need for a high speed high current relay. But I suppose automotive relays could possibly get the job done. Speed is not as important as it is when switching AC directly, so you could get away with something slower, as you could add a capacitor bank. But still has to be like a 10th of a second at the very most.

The advantage this would have over a true online UPS like a telco setup is the lower cost (ever try finding a 100+ amp charger?) and better battery life. Though, to make this really worthwhile you want to go big, like 3000w or more, that's when you save. For under 1kw a 12v inverter-charger can do. I recently bought a tripp-lite one.

This is now my UPS:



Still some tweaking to do before I put my production stuff on it. I want to enclose the batteries somehow (with some venting) to prevent the terminals from being exposed, and I may get 2 more to double capacity.

I can run 300w for about 5 hours right now. My real load is 350w so I figure 4ish hours. I will also need to setup some kind of monitor for the voltage so I can remotely keep track of it and properly shut down equipment when the voltage gets too low. Thinking of using arduino. I may also look at getting a hydrogen detector for piece of mind, could even hook it up to whatever I use to monitor the voltage.

 

[westom]

surge protectors have to be replaced every couple years too, due to the nature of mov's

Due to the nature of MOVs, a protector that must be replaced every couple of years was useless. Grossly undersized. Was not effective protection.

A protector is for an event that occurs maybe once every seven years. Most of the time, a protector remains inert - does nothing. A major difference between two different devices - both called surge protectors. Protectors from more responsible companies do protection and remain functional for decades.

Grossly undersized (ineffective) protectors are recommended replaced often. The other device (also called a protector) connects hundreds of thousand joules harmlessly to earth - and remains functional.

 

[MustISO]

One on each PC. We don't have a lot of outages but occasionally we'll lose power for 30 seconds to a minute and the UPS has been great for keeping our systems up.

 

[fastman]

Thanks all the for the input. Glad to see we stayed on topic and or related issues.
I'm in the market for one of these and have plenty to go on now

 

[Methodical2]

Yes. It should be noted that there's power surges (fluctuations) going on all the time in your electrical system and I mean all the time, but you don't notice it, however, if you have an UPS, you will notice the surges as the UPS goes into affect. UPS' are really worth it's money during those brown outtages, which causes the most damage as compare to straight power outages. Just because you've had no outtages doesn't mean there's no voltage fluctuation in your lines.

 

[Blain]

Due to the nature of MOVs, a protector that must be replaced every couple of years was useless. Grossly undersized. Was not effective protection.

A protector is for an event that occurs maybe once every seven years. Most of the time, a protector remains inert - does nothing. A major difference between two different devices - both called surge protectors. Protectors from more responsible companies do protection and remain functional for decades.

Grossly undersized (ineffective) protectors are recommended replaced often. The other device (also called a protector) connects hundreds of thousand joules harmlessly to earth - and remains functional.

Are you talking about products from Zero Surge and SurgeX?

 

[westom]

UPS' are really worth it's money during those brown outtages, which causes the most damage as compare to straight power outages.

Voltage fluctuations are routine. And so trivial as to be ideal voltage to all appliances. What is normal voltage for any electronics? Incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Computers are even more robust. Ideal voltage is so low that incandescent bulbs can dim to 40% intensity. How often are your lights dimming that much?

Why does a utility cut of power when voltage drops that low - bulbs at 50% intensity? Utility worries about risk to other less robust appliances - motorized appliances.

Brownouts do not damage any electronics. In fact, we intentionally create brownouts in some electronic appliances to 'extend' product life expectancy. If brownouts are destructive, well, every power off is a long slow brownout. So power off also harms electronics? Of course not. Damage from brownouts is a popular urban myth. For if that damage could happen, then the post also says what inside electronics are damaged.

A UPS is often made so cheaply that noise on AC mains may even cause it to trip into battery backup mode. That gets the naive to assume their power is 'so dirty' rather than learn facts. That is a cheap UPS going into battery backup on most any excuse. Then the naive recommend that UPS only on unjustified assumptions.

Worry about the rare electrical anomaly that can actually harm appliances - motorized and electronic. No plug-in UPS claims to protect from these typically destructive anomalies. A completely different device (also called a surge protector) is found in every facility that cannot have damage. Informed consumers obtain one in Lowes or Home Depot for less than $50 to make such anomalies irrelevant.

Long before recommending a solution, one must first identify the anomaly. Most all anomalies are made completely irrelevant by what is already inside electronics. After all, how many times a day are you replacing dimmer switches and bathroom GFCIs? If harmful anomalies exist, then these less robust devices are failing hourly or daily.

 

[Kristijonas]

In my country none that I know of use UPS because we only lose electricity on severe lightning storms, but that's a very rare and predictable event and mostly lasts only a couple of seconds. Only once or twice in my lifetime were there longer losses of power. There doesn't appear to be a need for "line conditioning" either. So an UPS would be a total waste of resources here.

 

[Red Squirrel]

In my country none that I know of use UPS because we only lose electricity on severe lightning storms, but that's a very rare and predictable event and mostly lasts only a couple of seconds. Only once or twice in my lifetime were there longer losses of power. There doesn't appear to be a need for "line conditioning" either. So an UPS would be a total waste of resources here.

So if by chance someone slams into a hydro pole or digs up an underground line and power gets cut to your house "even just one second" you will let your computer go down hard? That is very bad for the hardware, not to mention has a decent chance of causing lot of corruption, and if you are in the middle of something you don't even have a chance to finish up. We only get lot of outages here in the summer because of the road construction in my area, but even in winter there is always the chance of an outage such as for maintenance or what not. A UPS is inexpensive compared to the hardware you have to replace because it decides to not work after a hard shut down, or the time spent reinstalling the operating system.

 

[Kristijonas]

I actually shut down my PC the hard way very often and I see nothing wrong with it. Most of the programs I use auto-save very often (I don't use much besides games, word, skype, chrome, music and movies). So there is no risk of data corruption And worst case scenario is having to replay 10minutes of a game.

It's nothing bad for (new) hardware either, it's a myth.

And losing electricity to a maintenance without a warning in advance is impossible here. No one just cuts the power to hundreds of people without a warning a few days in advance And I wouldn't care much if it happened.

Also windows 8 probably makes rough restarts and shutdowns less dangerous to the software(itself)

 

[Red Squirrel]

I actually shut down my PC the hard way very often and I see nothing wrong with it. Most of the programs I use auto-save very often (I don't use much besides games, word, skype, chrome, music and movies). So there is no risk of data corruption And worst case scenario is having to replay 10minutes of a game.

It's nothing bad for (new) hardware either, it's a myth.

And losing electricity to a maintenance without a warning in advance is impossible here. No one just cuts the power to hundreds of people without a warning a few days in advance And I wouldn't care much if it happened.

Also windows 8 probably makes rough restarts and shutdowns less dangerous to the software(itself)

If you are pressing the power button, this is actually doing a proper shut down. Newer motherboards have a "soft off" mode and it tells the OS to shut down.

No matter how reliable is or how well in advance maintenance notices are given, there's always the chance of unexpected outages due to thinks outside of the power company's control.

I've seen lot of PCs get damaged by being unplugged or have their power cut badly. They're just not designed for it. It's not like a DVD player or other appliance.

 

[westom]

So if by chance someone slams into a hydro pole or digs up an underground line and power gets cut to your house "even just one second" you will let your computer go down hard?

Computer hardware powers off hard on every power off. Hardware does not know the difference between power cut off by a switch, a yanked cord, or a nuclear power plant shutdown. All it knows is power is gone WHEN power is lost.

If that causes hardware damage, then cite the hardware component damaged by power off - with datasheet numbers. Meanwhile, my every datasheet said every voltage from maximum all the way beyond zero to negative is not destructive.

An adjacent UPS has one function. To provide temporary and dirty power during a blackout. To save unsaved data to disk. (Not to be confused with another device, also called a UPS, that contains additional functions. And costs many $thousands. That device is beyond context.) A typical UPS is only temporary and dirty power.

Why dirty? Because a computer's supply makes mildly 'dirty' mains power irrelevant. And make 'dirtiest' UPS power also irrelevant. Since computers are so robust, a typical UPS can be some of the 'dirtiest' power. Meaning that a UPS can be even simpler and cheaper. Most of a UPS cost is in its battery. Its electronics are that simple.

Even 1960s mini-computers were designed to have power cut off unexpectedly - and no hardware damage. We did it all the time.

UPS has one function. Temporary and 'dirty' power.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Except when the power goes out, it's usually not straight off, it's often a series of very fast on/off or even a surge, or worse, a brown out. Also when a proper APCI shutdown is done, the hardware is told to shut down in certain ways, it's not just pulling power off. I used to work in a hospital and the power there was very dirty. Lot of flickers, random 1-2 second outages etc... I think their switchgear was messed up or something. There were so many weird hardware issues in that place it was unbelievable. Mostly blown power supplies, but lot of motherboards and such too. Surprisingly not that many hard drive failures though.

 

[WelshBloke]

No. I have a surge protector but that's only because they seem to come as standard on all non bottom of the line power strips these days.

I've only had one outage here in years and we had a months notice for that.

 

[Throckmorton]

This +1. I don't get the users who claim that all a UPS does is keep the PC up over a short brownout. Its most important function is line conditioning so that those power ripples do not hit your power supply on a continual basis.

Pure sine wave is also necessary on your UPS with the newer PSUs offering PFC.

UPSes don't condition the line. That's a common myth. They just pass through the power from the outlet, and only switch to battery when power cuts out.

 

[SnoopKatt]

I'm pretty OCD about saving every 5 min., and the power is pretty decent where I am, so I never bothered with picking up one.

 

[Blain]

In my country none that I know of use UPS because we only lose electricity on severe lightning storms, but that's a very rare and predictable event and mostly lasts only a couple of seconds. Only once or twice in my lifetime were there longer losses of power. There doesn't appear to be a need for "line conditioning" either. So an UPS would be a total waste of resources here.

"In my country none that I know of use UPS"
Are you speaking of residential users, business users or both?

"Only once or twice in my lifetime were there longer losses of power."
I'm guessing you're fairly young?

"There doesn't appear to be a need for "line conditioning" either."
How can you make that statement unless you've done some type of power monitoring over an extended period of time?

"So an UPS would be a total waste of resources here."
Again, the power monitoring issue?

UPSes don't condition the line. That's a common myth. They just pass through the power from the outlet, and only switch to battery when power cuts out.

You're not talking about all UPS designs, correct?
Line-Interactive and Online models do condition the power output.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Nobody uses UPS in my country. Simply not needed.

Powerlosses in a human lifetime can usually be counted on a single hand here.

Last time was in 2003 due to this:
http://www.geocities.jp/ps_dictionary/blackout/Final_report_uk-web.pdf
http://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pes/psdpc/documents_blackout_panel/PESGM2004-001081.pdf