Good reponses Noriaki. I like your well thought out posts. I am hoping for a sizeable performance increase from NForce because ALL the DDR chipsets haven't achieved the performance levels possible with that memory. The AMD 760 is the only one that has shown marked improvement over VIA's KT133A and that was only 10% much less than was originally hoped for DDR. If NForce can at least show a 10-25% gain over AMD760, that will be improvement enough to light a fire under VIA and Ali and get some good stuff produced over there again. They've done it in the past they s/b able to do it again.
So when *CAN* we get an nforce board?
I'm definately snagging one cuz i'm cheap ... and getting basically free Geforce graphics & great sound sounds good to me!
-g
I'm definately snagging one cuz i'm cheap ... and getting basically free Geforce graphics & great sound sounds good to me!
-g
Yes, I think nVidia can pull an upset, not necessarily because their chipset is faster (it will be faster when using T-Birds vs other chipsets with T-Birds), but becuase of all the hype. It can't lose.
for those expecting an improvement, remember the only performance improvement will be due to the hypertransport links (only good for those using both onboard IDE and RAID, or SCSI on the PCI bus as well as fast ethernet), and the hardware prefetch ability.
No-one knows what this will be like with Palomino, whether good or bad.. it might end up being like trying to zip up an MP3. in other words, no performance gain, or it might end up adding another 5% to the overall speed.
I assure you Intel is not shaking in their boots. why would they? it's just a chipset! the P4 will eventually own anyway (it's becoming more and more attractive)!
They are more concerned about this whole Rambus issue then anything else in the PC market..
for those expecting an improvement, remember the only performance improvement will be due to the hypertransport links (only good for those using both onboard IDE and RAID, or SCSI on the PCI bus as well as fast ethernet), and the hardware prefetch ability.
No-one knows what this will be like with Palomino, whether good or bad.. it might end up being like trying to zip up an MP3. in other words, no performance gain, or it might end up adding another 5% to the overall speed.
I assure you Intel is not shaking in their boots. why would they? it's just a chipset! the P4 will eventually own anyway (it's becoming more and more attractive)!
They are more concerned about this whole Rambus issue then anything else in the PC market..
<< nVdia's stock price still not too high? Time to buy some more
Intel doesn't have the habit of wasting time putting down just anyone. >>It went up 5% on the day nForce was announced. It kept steady around there since then.
I was going to buy some, but don't have enough savings.
"Anyway, NVIDIA has the production capacity to crank out the chips."
Since when has NVDA owned or operated a fab? They outsource their chip manufacturing mainly to Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, but they themselves have zero actual capacity.
"Well, Intel already has a piece of the nForce with the XBox."
Intel has no piece of nForce even though some of the technology is in the XBOX. Microsoft owns the liscense to use the PIII in a chipset not NVDA that's why they can't make a chipset for PIII or P4 with nForce and Intel's role in the xbox is simply as a component supplier, not as a design partner. Intel has no piece of nForce Microsoft and AMD do.
Since when has NVDA owned or operated a fab? They outsource their chip manufacturing mainly to Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, but they themselves have zero actual capacity.
"Well, Intel already has a piece of the nForce with the XBox."
Intel has no piece of nForce even though some of the technology is in the XBOX. Microsoft owns the liscense to use the PIII in a chipset not NVDA that's why they can't make a chipset for PIII or P4 with nForce and Intel's role in the xbox is simply as a component supplier, not as a design partner. Intel has no piece of nForce Microsoft and AMD do.
Many of the things about the board seem really good, but the hopefully single driver to run everything seems great too, I mean if you build one for less tech savy people (or anyone who doesn't want to have to update many different drivers) you can just give them one file to run and it will update mostly the entire pc.
What involvement does AMD have in Xbox? I wasn't aware that they were in there. Also, what I said was that the chipset makers (read VIA, Ali, and SiS) would be shaking in their boots didn't really mean Intel. Intel needs to quit messing around and start producing things that work now and will go into the future instead of just forgetting about the old and trying to force everyone else to conform to their new standards and then not giving upgrade paths for their products. Just a personal opinion.
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<< "Anyway, NVIDIA has the production capacity to crank out the chips."
Since when has NVDA owned or operated a fab? They outsource their chip manufacturing mainly to Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, but they themselves have zero actual capacity.
"Well, Intel already has a piece of the nForce with the XBox."
Intel has no piece of nForce even though some of the technology is in the XBOX. Microsoft owns the liscense to use the PIII in a chipset not NVDA that's why they can't make a chipset for PIII or P4 with nForce and Intel's role in the xbox is simply as a component supplier, not as a design partner. Intel has no piece of nForce Microsoft and AMD do. >>
I know very well that NVIDIA doesn't have any fabs...but their partners (TSMC) will gladly crank out the chips for them. Afterall, this is NVIDIA and they get what they want.
I was just stating that Intel's processor is being used in an nForce architecture so they know very well the nForce's capabilities.
One thing that is being forgotten is the NForce's memory subsystem. Too many people here seem to be simply dismissing it, but I think that that is the single best feature of the nForce (I really don't care about all of the integrated stuff).
It has dual channel DDR. Of course, quickly people say, "but the Athlon only has a 133mhz 64bit DDR bus, so the 2nd channel must be only used for the onboard video". But that is incorrect. The nforce is using the crossbar controller also seen in the xbox and gf3. Such a configuration allows for reduced memory latency. Put shortly, although the nForce doesn't have a higher theoretical bandwidth than 760, it's effective latency will be lower, and effective bandwidth higher, both of which translate into a performance boost.
You could see the same sort of thing in i820 vs i840 chipsets. The P3 bus was only 100mhz, so theoretically that 2nd RDRAM channel shouldn't have made a difference -- but it did.
Of course, there is still the question of whether nVidia can pull this off. Making a chipset is one complex equation, especially one so integrated... but OTOH, the nForce chipset is a veritable clone of their XBox chipset, so I have a strong feeling that it is indeed going to work.
It has dual channel DDR. Of course, quickly people say, "but the Athlon only has a 133mhz 64bit DDR bus, so the 2nd channel must be only used for the onboard video". But that is incorrect. The nforce is using the crossbar controller also seen in the xbox and gf3. Such a configuration allows for reduced memory latency. Put shortly, although the nForce doesn't have a higher theoretical bandwidth than 760, it's effective latency will be lower, and effective bandwidth higher, both of which translate into a performance boost.
You could see the same sort of thing in i820 vs i840 chipsets. The P3 bus was only 100mhz, so theoretically that 2nd RDRAM channel shouldn't have made a difference -- but it did.
Of course, there is still the question of whether nVidia can pull this off. Making a chipset is one complex equation, especially one so integrated... but OTOH, the nForce chipset is a veritable clone of their XBox chipset, so I have a strong feeling that it is indeed going to work.
<< One thing that is being forgotten is the NForce's memory subsystem. Too many people here seem to be simply dismissing it, but I think that that is the single best feature of the nForce (I really don't care about all of the integrated stuff). >>
No one forgotten anything, some like you who can see/appreciate a good thing, others just aping words without much of a clue
Remnant2: Hmmm you make a good point....but DDR is already quite low on the latency scale. How much lower can the nForce take it? Rambus...well I should be careful here - Rambus can have very low latency - RIMMs as they are currently used...have quite high latency, and so the i840 has room to work with.
DDR is already fairly low so how much can it shave off?
Though it's something to think about.
DDR is already fairly low so how much can it shave off?
Though it's something to think about.
NFS4 wrote:
<< Most companies have stayed away from the Duron b/c the the integrated solutions aren't exactly very appealing >>
huh?...are u kidding - the integrated graphics of both the SIS and VIA chipsets are better than any intel integrated graphics....
anyway, fi the performance is stellar with this chipset, no dobut nvidia will be eating up everyone in the computer market...i smell another microsoft/intel of computer hardware...
<< Most companies have stayed away from the Duron b/c the the integrated solutions aren't exactly very appealing >>
huh?...are u kidding - the integrated graphics of both the SIS and VIA chipsets are better than any intel integrated graphics....
anyway, fi the performance is stellar with this chipset, no dobut nvidia will be eating up everyone in the computer market...i smell another microsoft/intel of computer hardware...
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<< NFS4 wrote:
<< Most companies have stayed away from the Duron b/c the the integrated solutions aren't exactly very appealing >>
huh?...are u kidding - the integrated graphics of both the SIS and VIA chipsets are better than any intel integrated graphics....
anyway, fi the performance is stellar with this chipset, no dobut nvidia will be eating up everyone in the computer market...i smell another microsoft/intel of computer hardware... >>
And Intel STILL rules the low-end market with the Celeron + i810. How many companies have you seen using the integrated VIA and SiS solutions?? Last time I heard (Anand's review), the integrated solutions for the Duron were performing so subpar that lower clocked Celerons were able to keep up with the Duron. The integrated solutions have been performing very subpar:
Regarding SiS's chipset (from Anand):
<< The SiS 730S holds a lot of promise and it is definitely a step in the right direction, since the Duron desperately needs a highly integrated platform to run on. The motto we associated with the Duron when we first reviewed it back in June was: ?value does not have to mean slow.? Unfortunately the SiS 730S seems to combat that motto quite a bit.
While we did expect lower performance in 3D applications and games out of a UMA platform like that 730S, there is still no excuse for the degraded memory performance we saw here. If you factor out the integrated graphics and use an external GeForce2 GTS card, the 730S was still 10% slower in 2D applications and up to 25% slower in 3D applications....
Unfortunately it is taking away quite a bit of the performance advantage that the Duron originally boasted over the Celeron. It is now up to VIA to deliver a low cost yet better performing value platform for the Duron, if they can do that then SiS will be in a bit of a bind, if they cannot however, the Duron may lose quite a bit of its appeal in the retail market. >>
And here concerning the KM133 (from Anand):
<< Although the KM133 did meet our very high expectations in a theoretical sense, where it failed was where it most needed to succeed, in the real world tests.
Offering the same memory performance as the KT133 chipset, the KM133 chipset was set to be an instant success when its closest competitor was the SiS 730S. However, VIA's recent marriage to S3 left the KM133 with one of the slowest 2D graphics in the industry, in spite of using the newer Savage 2000 as the basis for its 2D core. This combined with the poor driver support that we have seen surrounding the Savage4 and Savage 2000 solutions from back when they were standalone graphics chips make the KM133 not as desirable as we originally hoped it would be.
Is there any other hope for the value Socket-A platform? Unfortunately it doesn't seem so. ALi won't be releasing any UMA chipsets for the Socket-A platform in 2001, at least not according to their roadmap. Instead, ALi will continue to use the Aladdin 7 as their UMA platform of choice for value PCs which, for those of you that aren't familiar with it, is a Super7 chipset for Socket-7 processors. >>
The Via KM/KL 133 and Sis730 really don't perform all that well compared to the i810E and i815E and they also aren't nearly as cheap as the i810. Margins are very thin in OEM PCs, the low end PCs are razor thin margins. Via and Sis's chipsets are too expensive for this market.
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<< The Via KM/KL 133 and Sis730 really don't perform all that well compared to the i810E and i815E and they also aren't nearly as cheap as the i810. Margins are very thin in OEM PCs, the low end PCs are razor thin margins. Via and Sis's chipsets are too expensive for this market. >>
Thanks Noriaki, you pretty much summed up what I posted
Whoa..... This causes a dilemma....
I need a board now until nForce arrives - no choice, my computer is being bought tomorrow or monday.
I don't want to spend a bunch of money, and I was hoping something with integrated Savage4 would be acceptable until nForce arrives, then transfer over the CPU and memory. (If the nForce accepts PC-133.)
Or do I get an i810/815 + Celeron combo and just stick with it? Maybe even a low P3 if I can afford it. Hmmm..... You've really got me thinking you guys. If I also go Intel, it means I can go with the smaller case and 150w PS.
I need a board now until nForce arrives - no choice, my computer is being bought tomorrow or monday.
I don't want to spend a bunch of money, and I was hoping something with integrated Savage4 would be acceptable until nForce arrives, then transfer over the CPU and memory. (If the nForce accepts PC-133.)
Or do I get an i810/815 + Celeron combo and just stick with it? Maybe even a low P3 if I can afford it. Hmmm..... You've really got me thinking you guys. If I also go Intel, it means I can go with the smaller case and 150w PS.
Everything I've read about the NForce seems to indicate that it is a DDR solution not for PC133. Just what I hear.
I really have to say yes, the key factor here in not as much as the performance, but Stability. I am hoping that this will finally bring stability to the AMD platform. Performance should be great also. We'll have to wait and see I guess. Oh and I doubt highly that nForce will support PC133.
Weren't people saying the KT133A's are very reliable? Almost as much as an Intel 81x?
Only thing that bugs me is that The 133A Savage4 motherboard costs $165C plus a cheap Duron.
The Intel815 boards cost $200C plus a more expensive Celeron or MUCH more expensive P3.
For the difference in price I could EASILY get a Thunderbird 1GHz or so. Surely the 2D performance of the VIA ProSavage isn't *that* bad! :Q
Time to find Anand's internal video review again.... *surf*surf*surf*
Only thing that bugs me is that The 133A Savage4 motherboard costs $165C plus a cheap Duron.
The Intel815 boards cost $200C plus a more expensive Celeron or MUCH more expensive P3.
For the difference in price I could EASILY get a Thunderbird 1GHz or so. Surely the 2D performance of the VIA ProSavage isn't *that* bad! :Q
Time to find Anand's internal video review again.... *surf*surf*surf*
nForce will truly crush. Intel could slit there own throats if they don't allow nForce for the P4. Integration is the key to the corporate market. This year is going to be a crazy battle on all fronts, looks like Nvidia is poised to dominate.
<< Thanks Noriaki, you pretty much summed up what I posted >>
LOL!!! Sorry about that
I typed my post but then got disturbed, and turned around and talked to someone, then came back and hit the button, I didn't see your post Ace << I don't want to spend a bunch of money, and I was hoping something with integrated Savage4 would be acceptable until nForce arrives, then transfer over the CPU and memory. (If the nForce accepts PC-133.) >>
I don't know about the nForce accepting PC133....but a Savage4 could probably last you until the nForce, depends on how much gaming you do.
I've been living off a TNT2m64 for a few weeks, and it really didn't bother me that much (I got a GeForce256 for $99 canadian brand new though...so I couldn't pass it up (with TV-out to
but the m64 was actually alright since I just haven't been gaming).Personally if I was trying to hold out on the nForce, I think a Savage4 could probably do me fine.
<< If I also go Intel, it means I can go with the smaller case and 150w PS. >>
You could also run an Intel CPU with a nice shiny Adda 13CFM 16dbA 60mm fan
(not sure if you know dbA that well but 16dbA is VERY quiet...~28 is average ambient noise level, 22-23 is considered a whisper....16 is less than half the loudness of 22).<< Weren't people saying the KT133A's are very reliable? Almost as much as an Intel 81x? >>
I would say so AnandTech uses KT133A boards for some of it's web servers. I think they are stable enough
<< Only thing that bugs me is that The 133A Savage4 motherboard costs $165C plus a cheap Duron.
The Intel815 boards cost $200C plus a more expensive Celeron or MUCH more expensive P3. >>
What about an i810 though? The i815Es have integrated Video true, but really the i815 is the sucessor to the i440BX (w/ AGP4x, ATA100, 133FSB etc)...Intel tries to downplay the i815E as a high-end P3 chipset in favour of the i820, but really the i815E is the high-end chipset of choice for the P3.
Look for some i810 boards, they should be quite cheap, and the i7xx intregrated graphics is actually semi-decent for 2D and stuff. I had a PowerColor standalone i740 card in a second computer for a while, I wouldn't use it for "Quaking", but it's 2D performance was certainly acceptable.
Good point....I was thinking as an interm solution until nForce arrives.
But if you want to keep the board for any length of time...
www.ncix.com has an AOpen MX3S mATX i815E for $168 (canadian), and in stock.
Integrated Video, Audio, and LAN. 2xDIMM (which is fine, 2x256MB is the max the i815 supports anyways) 3xPCI, 1xAGP.
The onboard LAN is an Intel Pro100 NIC...good NIC I don't see why you'd ever want to replace that (seriously...it's a good as high-end 3Com NICs)...so really it has 4 PCI slots.
The onboard Audio is just basic AC97...but hey it gets the job done, that's what I'm using now.
And as I mentioned before, the i752 graphics is fairly decent. Not *fantastic*, but pretty good, especially if gaming isn't a major concern. The i752 is fairly nice 2D wise.
AOpen MX3S product page
NCIX AOpen MX3S for sale page
It's MicroATX to, so it should fit nicely in your small case. AOpen aren't the best tweaker board ever, but they are fairly solid boards. Kind of like Gigabyte. Good solid reliable, but few tweaking options.
NCIX is in Vancouver, but I made an order one morning and got my order the next day. If you order before 2pm Vancouver time tommorow you should be able to get it by Tuesday at least (you are in Winnipeg I seem to recall? I'm in Calgary so a bit closer...but you should get it by Tuesday at least).
But if you want to keep the board for any length of time...
www.ncix.com has an AOpen MX3S mATX i815E for $168 (canadian), and in stock.
Integrated Video, Audio, and LAN. 2xDIMM (which is fine, 2x256MB is the max the i815 supports anyways) 3xPCI, 1xAGP.
The onboard LAN is an Intel Pro100 NIC...good NIC
I don't see why you'd ever want to replace that (seriously...it's a good as high-end 3Com NICs)...so really it has 4 PCI slots.The onboard Audio is just basic AC97...but hey it gets the job done, that's what I'm using now.
And as I mentioned before, the i752 graphics is fairly decent. Not *fantastic*, but pretty good, especially if gaming isn't a major concern. The i752 is fairly nice 2D wise.
AOpen MX3S product page
NCIX AOpen MX3S for sale page
It's MicroATX to, so it should fit nicely in your small case. AOpen aren't the best tweaker board ever, but they are fairly solid boards. Kind of like Gigabyte. Good solid reliable, but few tweaking options.
NCIX is in Vancouver, but I made an order one morning and got my order the next day. If you order before 2pm Vancouver time tommorow you should be able to get it by Tuesday at least (you are in Winnipeg I seem to recall? I'm in Calgary so a bit closer...but you should get it by Tuesday at least).
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