Do you honestly think that NVIDIA can pull an upset with nForce?

[NFS4]

I'm thinking that NVIDIA could have a serious winner on their hands as they have the backing of all the major mainboard manufacturers. Preliminary numbers also show the nForce at the top of the pack (at least in memory scores, and definitely as far as integrated graphics). Anyway, NVIDIA has the production capacity to crank out the chips and The Register is fingering street prices of around $100 - 125. Hell, I paid $140 for my KT7A-RAID when it first came out. So it doesn't seem like a big rip-off considering what you get for that price. But considering it's competition:

AMD760 - still kinda expensive
KT266 - not quite AMD760 speeds, and VIA is already having to ready a revision (KT266A or KT266 Pro)
KT133A - not gonna cut it with Pally for optimum performance, no DDR
SiS 735 - only thing that concerns me is production capacity and shipping status. The board has been to reviewers for a month or so now, and we still see no boards for sale (except for PC Chips I hear, but you can forget them). And I've only seen MicroATX versions.

Knowing how competitive NVIDIA is, you know that they are tasting blood now...my only question is what could possibly stop them now??

 

[Aquaman]

I think they have a winner on thier hands I was going to build a KM133 system for may mom but I think I will give her my current computer and get myself a nForce .

Cheers,
Aquaman

 

[nam ng]

nVdia's stock price still not too high? Time to buy some more Intel doesn't have the habit of wasting time putting down just anyone.

 

[NFS4]

<< nVdia's stock price still not too high? Time to buy some more Intel doesn't have the habit of wasting time putting down just anyone. >>


That's right, didn't Intel have a few choice words to say about the nForce?:Q

 

[Charles]

I already narrowed down my DDR upgrade path into 3 platforms only, which is:[*]AMD 760MP - If I decide to go dual!
[*]NVidia nForce 420
[*]Sis 735 - My last option

I will put stability into my biggest consideration, not performance.

 

[nam ng]

I can imagine some responsible Intel &quot;top brass&quot; are shaking in their boots since nFORCE announcement, any Intel managers with half an ounce of brain would be

 

[NFS4]

<< I can imagine some responsible Intel &quot;top brass&quot; are shaking in their boots since nFORCE announcement, any Intel managers with half an ounce of brain would be >>


Well, Intel already has a piece of the nForce with the XBox. But Intel should be worried about the nForce canabalizing i810E sales. Most companies have stayed away from the Duron b/c the the integrated solutions aren't exactly very appealing. But the Duron + nForce would eat Celeries for breakfast. And the nForce + Palomino would make another great system for OEM's like Gateway, Compaq, etc.

If Dell were to ever consider AMD, nForce + Palomino would be the best case for it (there is nothing inherently wrong with AMD processors, and NVIDIA is already a main staple around Dell).

 

[nam ng]

I doubt XBOX is that significant, but with nFORCE it's a threat to both processor and mobo chipset. Highly competitive low/high end single processor systems with no Intel parts?

Personal slightly conservative estimate -- Palomino + nFORCE = PIV + 25% higher clock speed.

nFORCE leveraging techniques used in Super-computers for many years, is what negating deep pipeline, higher clock speed advantage of Intel over AMD.

 

[Sunner]

Yup I think they might have.

Whether you like nVidia or not, noone can deny that they have kept producing top end parts for several years now, and at an amazing pace at that, with near flawless execution.

Like Charles, stability is my primary concern, but if they come through with that, I believe they will have a real winner.

But anyway, I think the feature that will really set this chipset apart from the pack, assuming it will work well, is the crossbar memory system.

The only thing that really me is that if nVidia does come through and starts getting the same momentum as they have in the GFX business, they might just become big enough to start canibalizing the other players.

 

[ST4RCUTTER]

Yeah, after I read the technology going into the nForce chipset I quickly changed my upgrade path. I was considering a Northwood at 2.0+Ghz but I can sit on my 1Ghz PC100 KT133 for a little while longer until the nForce comes out. I hope they come up with a RAID version, but if they don't no biggie. There is just so much potential sweetness in the nForce boards; I hope stability is included as well.

Lookin forward to:

DDR 2400 providing 4.2GB/s of Dual channel DDR...even if the current Palomino can't saturate it.
Hyper-pipeline to southbridge.
Powerful MX graphics that I will probably just turn off.
Dolby Digital 5.1 integrated audio...that's plenty good enough for me!

 

[AmazonRasta]

So, the nForce is a motherboard chipset?

 

[NFS4]

<< So, the nForce is a motherboard chipset? >>


Yes it is, and a VERY good motherboard chipset at that. Check here and here for details.

 

[MichaelD]

If the real-world tests (I.E. Anandtech's standard &quot;beat the crap out of it for 48 hours mobo tests&quot performanc and benchmarks carry over from the looks-good-on-paper standpoint to the final product, they will be upsetting the apple cart big-time!

I'm going to take a different angle than most folks with this next comment; different, but important.

I just hope they don't rush everything to production and skimp on quality control. I.E. I want to see the little details that differentiate a good mobo from a great one. Things like:

Nice big caps by the CPU socket for stability (but not too close...gotta get that FOP38 on!)
Quality solder points. No excess solder hanging off the bottom of the board
Attention to detail type stuff, like ensuring that mobo mounting holes are well-finished and actually line up with the uAt/ATX standard.

To me, a computer component/car/bike/stereo can have all the bells and whistles in the world, but if the little things make you uncomfortable, either mentally or physically, then it's not worth buying.

I've read the sneak preview over at Extreme tech. They were very impressed with the boards performance, especially for a beta version board. I think NVidia has a winner on it's hands w/their Southbridge Hyper Pipeline. That is gonna be awesome.

But what's up with this Micro ATX thing? The standard these days is ATX. Stuffing a mobo, big TBird/FOP38/GF3/and all the other stuff into a tiny little case is asking for trouble.

Well see how things turn out. All us KT133/KT133A owners already know that our next upgrade is definitely gonna be to go to DDR. (Is there anything else? ) Right now the only decent DDR chipset is AMDs 760 chipset. But hasn't that been discontinued or something?

I'm anxiously awaiting the final results. With all this prerelease hype and betaboards being loaned out for testing, I think it's obvious that NVidia knows they've got a monster on their hands. Drum roll please.......I cant' wait to see how it turns out!
Go NVidia!

 

[Digobick]

<< But what's up with this Micro ATX thing? The standard these days is ATX. Stuffing a mobo, big TBird/FOP38/GF3/and all the other stuff into a tiny little case is asking for trouble. >>

The reference board was a Micro ATX board to show OEM's that they could pack all this stuff into just a tiny board. There are definitely Full ATX versions coming, as Asus has already announced one.

 

[StormRider]

I will put stability into my biggest consideration, not performance.

Don't forget to include the Ali offerings. The Magik I chipset is supposed to be real stable but not as high performing. But from the benchmarks I've seen it seems to be closing the performance gap. Also, even though it appears last on some benchmarks it's not like it is getting the crap beaten out of it by the other chipsets. I mean so it only gets 115 fps as opposed to another chipset getting 125 -- is that really so bad?

Also, Ali is supposed to be working on a new offering that has LDT and 8x AGP. Personally, my list of considerations would be:

1) nForce or SIS735
2) Ali Magik series
3) Via series.

 

[NFS4]

<< The reference board was a Micro ATX board to show OEM's that they could pack all this stuff into just a tiny board. There will definitely Full ATX versions coming, as Asus has already announced one. >>


Yep, Asus has a nice 5 PCI ATA nForce board:

http://www.anandtech.com/chipsets/showimage.html?u=http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/chipsets/nvidia/nforce/preview/asus_nforce.jpg



<< Don't forget to include the Ali offerings. The Magik I chipset is supposed to be real stable but not as high performing. But from the benchmarks I've seen it seems to be closing the performance gap. Also, even though it appears last on some benchmarks it's not like it is getting the crap beaten out of it by the other chipsets. I mean so it only gets 115 fps as opposed to another chipset getting 125 -- is that really so bad? >>


I want stable and high performing. No sense in settling on a lower performing chipset if there is one that outpeforms it and is just as stable. And there is nothing really innovative about the ALi chipset either. It's just a decent chipset, nothing more nothing less.

 

[CovertCow]

I think that this has been brought up before, but if they can pull off a stable motherboard chipset, then add mp capabilities, there really wouldn't be any motherboard do match them. It really covers every group of consumers: gamers, low end (its cheap from what you say), office (3d studio max w/ 2 mp!!!), you could even use it as server :v) :v)

 

[Noriaki]

I think they will.
I'm a bit skeptical of the onboard sound everyone thinks is so great....I have yet to be convinced that real time DD encoding is really that useful for gaming compared to 6ch analog output (assume for the moment that it's good quality analog outs).

But then on the other hand, I'm using an Integrated AC97 Via audio CODEC right now, the nForce onboard sound will definately be a step up from that.

The onboard Video, onboard Video is good. But it's no GF3, and by the time it's available &quot;GF4&quot; will be out.
However, onboard Video can be very handy if you are between Video cards or for testing problems in a rig.

And I don't think the nForce's hardware prefetch is really that amazing. The Palimino has it already...should give a bit of a bump to TBirds and Durons...but overall nothing to be amazed by.

Now let us consider the competition.
[*]AMD760...Good chipset...unfortunately it always gets paired with the Via 686B (worst chip ever).
[*]KT266...hmmm well the Jury is still out I think, but I'm not encouraged by what I've seen so far.
[*]ALi Magik1...Very good chipset stability wise...I happen to have an A7A266 in my hands right now and I'm impressed by overall stability/reliability, and it's nice that the southbridge is fully supported by windows so you only have AGP drivers....but...the performance is pretty bad, especially with 200Mhz FSB and/or SDRAM.
[*]Sis735...looks promising...but lets face is Sis has a bad rep, and not many mobo manufacturers seem to be chomping at the bit here.


So overall I don't think the nForce is as revolutionary as most people seem to....but I do think that it will be an excellent chipset, and like the best choice for AMD CPUs. nVidia can make nice hardware and good drivers to support it, they have a dominating group of engineers, and I think they will do quite well. I think people are getting a tad too excited about the nForce, it's not like it's going to double your CPU performance or something, and really, integrated graphics is not a big deal for us....sure...it's good now. But 6 months from now? A year? Though hopefully it will help Duron systems in the lower ranges.

But on the whole, I think nVidia has a winner.

 

[Adul]

I just can't wait to see what the nforce can do. I am especialy have been wondering about the nforce + anthlon 4 vs the nforce + athlon difference would be. I wonder because of the nforce hardware pre fetch like technology they have on the memory controlers. Would the athlon 4 still be able to take more advantag of memory beyound what the nforce will provide?

 

[bluemax]

<< AMD760...Good chipset...unfortunately it always gets paired with the Via 686B (worst chip ever). >>


Uh oh.... what do you mean the 686B is &quot;worst chip ever&quot;...? Should I *not* get a K7 Master??
Please spill the beans...
:Q

 

[whitelight]

nForce will dominate in the oem markets where integrated audio and video are required. i'm excited about the apu... real-time dolby digital encoding from an integrated audio chipset? woohoo!

 

[NelsonMuntz]

<< I'm a bit skeptical of the onboard sound everyone thinks is so great....I have yet to be convinced that real time DD encoding is really that useful for gaming compared to 6ch analog output (assume for the moment that it's good quality analog outs).

The onboard Video, onboard Video is good. But it's no GF3, and by the time it's available &quot;GF4&quot; will be out.
However, onboard Video can be very handy if you are between Video cards or for testing problems in a rig.

And I don't think the nForce's hardware prefetch is really that amazing. The Palimino has it already...should give a bit of a bump to TBirds and Durons...but overall nothing to be amazed by.

So overall I don't think the nForce is as revolutionary as most people seem to....but I do think that it will be an excellent chipset, and like the best choice for AMD CPUs. nVidia can make nice hardware and good drivers to support it, they have a dominating group of engineers, and I think they will do quite well. I think people are getting a tad too excited about the nForce, it's not like it's going to double your CPU performance or something, and really, integrated graphics is not a big deal for us....sure...it's good now. But 6 months from now? A year? Though hopefully it will help Duron systems in the lower ranges. >>


Not Revolutionary? You just detailed many of the points that make it revolutionary. Have any other chipset makers tried built in Dolby Digital Decoding? NO! So it won't help a ton with games, but the versatility is amazing for DVDs, Audio, etc. Have any other chipset makers tried a hardware prefetch? NO! Plus its a single chip system instead of a dual (not many other attempts at that yet), has a built in video accelerator that actually accelerates the video instead of decelerating it like all the other video built-in systems out there. Sure it isn't GF3 or GF4 quality, but for every home user but the hard core gamer this will be plenty. What does it take for a chipset to be revolutionary to you? I think if the nForce can live up to the hype and can come out at a good pricepoint, the other chipset makers s/b shaking in their boots.

 

[Noriaki]

<< Uh oh.... what do you mean the 686B is &quot;worst chip ever&quot;...? Should I *not* get a K7 Master??
Please spill the beans... >>

Well personally I've had no problems with it. For a while I thought I did, but I tested out a board without the Via686B and I have the same problem. So it's something else.

But alot of people have had problems with it...it seems to be sparodic. I know plenty of people that are fine, and plenty that aren't. It seems the newest 4in1 drivers clean up most of the problems...but I think people still have some problems.

Honestly I would avoid the Via 686B if I could, but the alternatives aren't that attractive...I think AMD761/Via686B is the best choice for an Athlon chipset at the moment.
KT266 and Ali Magik1 aren't that attractive.
If nForce or Sis735 were available now...but they aren't....
If you can wait for one of those I would were I you.

NelsonMuntz:
Ok..it's Dolby Digital ENCODING I'm talking about, not Decoding.
There is a HUGE difference. Decoding would be somewhat useful for 5.1 channel speakers without their own decoder (of course a good software DVD decoder can do it anyways...but hardware's probably better).

Encoding compresses the sound so it loses quality, and encodes 6 audio channels into one bit stream. So once you have this dobly digital encoded stream you have to turn around and decode it to 6 analog channels so you can listen to it.
So basically all you get from this feature is the quality loss from the compression.

There are some situations where it could be useful, like if you have your PC hooked up to a reciever that doesn't have 6 analog inputs, but does have dolby digital input, then you can get sound to that.

But most people don't, and most PC speakers don't have decoders onboard. So you have to take this just recently encoded stream and decode it so you can make use of it.
So you end up with 6 channels in, a bunch of miscellenous processing then 6 channel out.

Hardware pre-fetch is useful on the Duron/TBird I'll give you that.
But the Athlon4 does it already, so you just get two devices trying to do the same thing...so the chipset doing it really doesn't add anything.

Integrated Video is not that great.
Back in the day when I had my Voodoo3 there was a chipset with an integrated TNT2. It was pretty good then, but how good does that seem now? About as good as the nForce's integrated Video will seem in a year. I grant you, the nForce's integrated Video is the best we've ever seen. But it's still nothing to moisten yourself over.

I think the nForce is likely to be the best chipset for the Athlon, bar none. I also definately appreciate the projected price point.
But people are acting like it's the Voodoo1 of the chipset business. I just don't buy it.

Sorry if I'm not enough of a nVidia-zealot to listen with rapture to everything their marketting department spews.
Again I have little doubt it will be the best chipset for Athlons, but I seriously doubt your average person will be able to tell the difference between a similarily equipped AMD760 or Sis735 board.

 

[tyski]

I don't think its so much that the nForce will boost performance by huge amounts, but the fact that its Nvidia, a company very new to the chipset market, and trying to throw in all this stuff that has never been done before. That takes some guts on Nvidia's part and that's what impresses me. I'm betting that there won't be much performance difference between the nForce and AMD760, but that's not the entire picture. Also, if Nvidia keeps producing chipsets at the rate of peformance increase that they do with their video cards, then they are probably going to run away from the competition. The present nForce may be good but not that great, but what will it be like in another six or twelve months when Nvidia releases nForce2? Just look at the difference between the GF2 and GF3. The only that worries me is that Nvidia will monopolize the AMD chipset market. They have a habit of killing other companies . For now though, I'm psyched about building an nForce based computer as well as seeing Intel's reaction. As for the rest, only time will tell.

Tyrel

 

[Noriaki]

<< he only that worries me is that Nvidia will monopolize the AMD chipset market. They have a habit of killing other companies . >>

I dunno about that (though Via could use some killing). Intel doesn't co-operate at all with Via, ALi or SiS for making GTL+ chipsets, yet they all still do it. I don't know if nVidia could really do that. Besides really the only company nVidia has swallowed is 3dfx, and 3dfx really went under because of bad management.

Via's parent company is huge, nVidia can't really just swallow them. The Acer group is also fairly sizeable, I don't think ALi will die tommorow either.

But if nVidia could produce a stable, fast, compatible mainstream Athlon chipset that would be good on all fronts.

AMD doesn't want to produce mainstream chipsets, and ALi and Via both have some problems. If nVidia &quot;Lights a fire under their asses&quot; it will just prod them to produce even better chipsets of their own.