Do you consider this to be racism/hate speech

[child of wonder]

By your logic, Jews holding the whole of Germany responsible for nazism were nazis.

Pulling up examples of racial frustration and anger directed at crippling institutional racism is not evidence of racism.

Again, racism requires belief in racial superiority. Not all racial prejudice is racism. When racial prejudice is in response to racism, it is not racism.

No more than lower classes resenting the upper classes is classism.

Beating random white people isn't racism but it's akin to the Jews holding Germany responsible for the atrocities of the Holocaust?

You're an ideologue that can't be reasoned with.

 

[Amused]

Beating random white people isn't racism but it's akin to the Jews holding Germany responsible for the atrocities of the Holocaust?

You're an ideologue that can't be reasoned with.

I never said it was excusable, nor right. But it's not racism. It's the result of racism. It's anger and resentment caused by racism.

I'll tell you this, were I oppressed, the blood of my oppressors would flow until I was free, or dead. You should be very thankful blacks are, on the average, a lot more peaceful than I would be. To a black person in the US facing institutionalized, systemic racism at every level of society, whites in general are understandably seen as the oppressor. You're just too stupid to see that, or racist to admit it.

Maybe this is why the right-wing is so wet pants scared of whites becoming a minority?

 

[sao123]

Since when do the perpetrators or at fault parties get to decide the punishment or restitution for their crimes?

Look at how stupid you consistently make yourself look while you throw a tantrum attempting to make blacks racist and whites the arbitrators of their pain and suffering

so being white is a crime now that requires punishment and restitution, huh?
The only one looking stupid right now is you.

 

[Amused]

so being white is a crime now that requires punishment and restitution, huh?
The only one looking stupid right now is you.

No, being white means having benefited from a racist system that systematically oppressed blacks since before the founding of this country.

And you just keep looking stupider...

 

[sao123]

No, being white means having benefited from a racist system that systematically oppressed blacks since before the founding of this country.

And you just keep looking stupider...

And which penal code is that a violation of again? If I have to pay restitution, I still have to be found guilty of some crime...

 

[Vic]

No, being white means having benefited from a racist system that systematically oppressed blacks since before the founding of this country.

And you just keep looking stupider...

Dude, that's totally unfair and only serves to fuel white nationalist paranoia. The system is racist, but not every white person has benefited from it. And most white people are against it. In fact, quite a large number are against it philosophically, but support it only because they're afraid of being done unto as others have been done unto. Which is what you're threatening to do.
In other words, I'm sure you mean well, but you're not helping. Because, and here's the thing, there's no such thing as a "the" white people. White people in America don't share a common heritage. They're just as diverse as brown peoples. And what you want to do is blame all white people for what some white people have done.

 

[sao123]

I never said it was excusable, nor right. But it's not racism. It's the result of racism. It's anger and resentment caused by racism.

I'll tell you this, were I oppressed, the blood of my oppressors would flow until I was free, or dead. You should be very thankful blacks are, on the average, a lot more peaceful than I would be. To a black person in the US facing institutionalized, systemic racism at every level of society, whites in general are understandably seen as the oppressor. You're just too stupid to see that, or racist to admit it.

Maybe this is why the right-wing is so wet pants scared of whites becoming a minority?

I'm not stupid or racist. i'm enlightened. Even if you solved every racism, classism, sexism, -ism problem. There will still be inequality. It is not a solvable problem. Every person is born under unique circumstances. Every person has a unique environment and unique dna.

The fact is there will always be someone who is elite, and there will always be someone at the bottom. Whatever you lot in life, your duty is to be a good steward of your talents and opportunities.

I'm not elite, nor am i at the bottom of the barrel. I cant change where I was born, what color I was born, and who my parents were. But i will not apologize for the life I've lead or the opportunities I have had just because I am white, because my Stewardship demands I make the most of my life.

 

[pmv]

I'm not stupid or racist. i'm enlightened. Even if you solved every racism, classism, sexism, -ism problem. There will still be inequality. It is not a solvable problem. Every person is born under unique circumstances. Every person has a unique environment and unique dna.

The fact is there will always be someone who is elite, and there will always be someone at the bottom. Whatever you lot in life, your duty is to be a good steward of your talents and opportunities.

I'm not elite, nor am i at the bottom of the barrel. I cant change where I was born, what color I was born, and who my parents were. But i will not apologize for the life I've lead or the opportunities I have had just because I am white, because my Stewardship demands I make the most of my life.

I would agree with you that there will always be inequality. More troublingly to me, there will also always be conflict, for the same reason (everyone being born under unique circumstances, having unique environment etc). I doubt people will ever really be able to 'get along'.

But its lot easier to feel philosophical about that if you aren't one of those at the bottom.

And the distance between elites and those at the bottom can vary hugely from one society or system to another. There are degrees of inequality.

Ultimately all such societies depend on consent. If too many people near the bottom decide they won't tolerate the situation they can withdraw that consent. Ultimately there's nothing, except force, that can oblige people to accept a situation where they are the ones at the bottom. I sympathise with where your argument comes from psychologically, but it doesn't really have any _moral_ force. If some sort of uprising took all your stuff tomorrow and put you on the bottom you'd have no comeback to them saying the same thing to you.

The logic of your argument is that those at the bottom are quite likely to think 'well, there will always be inequality, so it's time for us to be on the top'.

I get the principle of 'making the most of your life', but if you do that with blinkers on, ignoring the wider context, you can't really complain if it all gets pulled out from under you at some point.

 

[dyna]

Since when do the perpetrators or at fault parties get to decide the punishment or restitution for their crimes?

Look at how stupid you consistently make yourself look while you throw a tantrum attempting to make blacks racist and whites the arbitrators of their pain and suffering

Are you that dense? You tell everybody here you are a victim and you demand restitution for centuries of evil, yet will not explain what restitution will be enough. It is pretty obvious you know exactly what you want. If it is so important, you probably think about it while your walking, eating, driving, sleeping, etc.... You seemed obsessed over the idea and you said, only you can determine what is enough restitution since you are the victim. You appear to be begging somebody to ask the question, what restitution? For the purpose of discussion, lets hear your view of it.

 

[Amused]

Are you that dense? You tell everybody here you are a victim and you demand restitution for centuries of evil, yet will not explain what restitution will be enough. It is pretty obvious you know exactly what you want. If it is so important, you probably think about it while your walking, eating, driving, sleeping, etc.... You seemed obsessed over the idea and you said, only you can determine what is enough restitution since you are the victim. You appear to be begging somebody to ask the question, what restitution? For the purpose of discussion, lets hear your view of it.

I'm not black. You call me dense, yet my profile picture is clearly that of a white man and is quite obviously me.

Again, it is not up to you or me to determine what the people who have been victimized by white racism, colonialism and slavery for centuries are owed in compensation.

Especially when the governmental system that would decide is still inherently, systemically racist.

 

[Amused]

Because, and here's the thing, there's no such thing as a "the" white people. White people in America don't share a common heritage. They're just as diverse as brown peoples. And what you want to do is blame all white people for what some white people have done.

Tell that to post war Germany. Every German was held responsible.

At some point in time, whites as a whole are going to have to take responsibility. Until we do take responsibility, as a whole, nothing will change.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Tell that to post war Germany. Every German was held responsible.

At some point in time, whites as a whole are going to have to take responsibility. Until we do take responsibility, as a whole, nothing will change.

I dunno man, I take responsibility by not perpetuating racist rhetoric and stereotypes with myself and my kids. Why should I be held accountable for whites who can't move past a topic they lost a war over 150 years ago? Or another couple wars 60 years later?

 

[sao123]

Tell that to post war Germany. Every German was held responsible.

At some point in time, whites as a whole are going to have to take responsibility. Until we do take responsibility, as a whole, nothing will change.

obvious point is obvious... and reinforces what you refuse to admit yet...

German reparations for WWII were mostly in the form of... wait for it....


FORCED LABOR.




Furthermore the group arguably that suffered the most, the Jewish Holocaust, got 0 reparations from Germany. Dick. Nada. Nothing.

 

[Amused]

obvious point is obvious... and reinforces what you refuse to admit yet...

German reparations for WWII were mostly in the form of... wait for it....


FORCED LABOR.




Furthermore the group arguably that suffered the most, the Jewish Holocaust, got 0 reparations from Germany. Dick. Nada. Nothing.

The vast majority of German reparations outside of the soviet union were in the form of money and land. Yes, the allies used POWs for forced labor. However, considering that Germany to this day pays and has to date paid 53 billion dm to the Jews, thank you for making my point.

Meanwhile, your point on the holocaust rings hollow. The compensation was for theft, and forced labor. Sounds familiar.

The US, to this day, has made no significant reparation to descendants of black slaves or native Americans, or sufferers of Jim Crow, or the ongoing suffering of institutionalized racism.

Why stop if there are no consequences? I posit the US will never overcome institutionalized, systemic racism until it must pay for it.

The harder you try, the worse you're doing in this debate. You keep accidentally making my point for me.

 

[jackstar7]

Do you expect to actually get an answer?
You should see it in his answers... Reverse racism doesnt exist. Only black people can ever decide that the debt has been paid in full.

It will never be enough until Black people own everything across both Euro and Amero continents and white people are their slaves for 150 years and it will all be ok because Amused knows that black people cant ever exhibit racism.

Another one ready to dine and dash.

 

[bigboxes]

White people the most victimized group of people in America.

I'm a Christian, but conservative Christians have to be the most victimized group in America. Change that to white Christian and we have a winner.

 

[jackstar7]

I wonder about the Venn diagram of people unwilling to consider reparations and people who do or have denied global warming/pollution issues.

Probably not a circle, but I bet it's close. In both cases they don't want to address a problem that can be left to following generations to handle. A culture of people afraid to tackle large issues. I bet they were labeled as gifted and special as kids...

 

[Victorian Gray]

obvious point is obvious... and reinforces what you refuse to admit yet...

German reparations for WWII were mostly in the form of... wait for it....


FORCED LABOR.

Along with a few billion dollars worth of reparations to the allies

"After World War II, according to the Potsdam conference held between July 17 and August 2, 1945, Germany was to pay the Allies US$23 billion mainly in machinery and manufacturing plants. Reparations to the Soviet Union stopped in 1953. Large numbers of factories were dismantled or destroyed.[citation needed] Dismantling in the west stopped in 1950.

Beginning before the German surrender and continuing for the next two years, the United States pursued a vigorous program of harvesting all technological and scientific know-how as well as all patents and many leading scientists in Germany (known as Operation Paperclip). Historian John Gimbel, in his book Science Technology and Reparations: Exploitation and Plunder in Postwar Germany, states that the "intellectual reparations" taken by the U.S. and the UK amounted to close to $10 billion.[8] German reparations were partly to be in the form of forced labor. By 1947, approximately 4,000,000 German POWs and civilians were used as forced labor (under various headings, such as "reparations labor" or "enforced labor") in the Soviet Union, France, the UK, Belgium and in Germany in U.S run "Military Labor Service Units".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_reparations#World_War_II_Germany

Furthermore the group arguably that suffered the most, the Jewish Holocaust, got 0 reparations from Germany. Dick. Nada. Nothing.

Really?

Reparations Agreement between Israel and West Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany

Holocaust Restitution: German Reparations.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/german-holocaust-reparations

 

[sao123]

Along with a few billion dollars worth of reparations to the allies

"After World War II, according to the Potsdam conference held between July 17 and August 2, 1945, Germany was to pay the Allies US$23 billion mainly in machinery and manufacturing plants. Reparations to the Soviet Union stopped in 1953. Large numbers of factories were dismantled or destroyed.[citation needed] Dismantling in the west stopped in 1950.

Beginning before the German surrender and continuing for the next two years, the United States pursued a vigorous program of harvesting all technological and scientific know-how as well as all patents and many leading scientists in Germany (known as Operation Paperclip). Historian John Gimbel, in his book Science Technology and Reparations: Exploitation and Plunder in Postwar Germany, states that the "intellectual reparations" taken by the U.S. and the UK amounted to close to $10 billion.[8] German reparations were partly to be in the form of forced labor. By 1947, approximately 4,000,000 German POWs and civilians were used as forced labor (under various headings, such as "reparations labor" or "enforced labor") in the Soviet Union, France, the UK, Belgium and in Germany in U.S run "Military Labor Service Units".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_reparations#World_War_II_Germany




Really?

Reparations Agreement between Israel and West Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany

Holocaust Restitution: German Reparations.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/german-holocaust-reparations

Well since you are the moron quoting wikipedia, read your own source///
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reparations_for_World_War_II

Israel and Jews, in general
Further information: Reparations Agreement between Israel and West Germany
West Germany paid reparations to Israel and the World Jewish Congress for confiscated Jewish property under Nuremberg laws, forced labour and persecution. However, no reparations were paid for killed Jews during the Holocaust.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Well since you are the moron quoting wikipedia, read your own source///
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reparations_for_World_War_II

Israel and Jews, in general
Further information: Reparations Agreement between Israel and West Germany
West Germany paid reparations to Israel and the World Jewish Congress for confiscated Jewish property under Nuremberg laws, forced labour and persecution. However, no reparations were paid for killed Jews during the Holocaust.

Stop picking nits and read the second link for a bit more detail.

EDIT:

And just for fun

"The post-world war II German-Israeli reparations program is the largest, most comprehensive reparations program ever implemented. Traditionally, reparations were supported by the vanquished and were designed to compensate the victor for the damages caused during the war. The Wiedergutmachung (literally “making the good again”) program as it is called in Germany, or Shilumim (the payments) as Israelis usually prefer to refer to it, innovates in many areas and goes beyond this interstate framework. Jewish leaders participated in the Luxembourg negotiations that led to the signature of the 1952 treaty, and community networks played a crucial role in the distribution of the money to the victims. Civil society groups played an instrumental role in the United States as plans for reparations were being discussed during the war. Neither the Federal Republic of Germany (FRG) nor Israel existed during the war. Reparations have been paid to the state of Israel and were paid to Jewish Holocaust survivors regardless of their nationality. The FRG benefited politically and economically from this treaty. It was able to enter the international arena and establish diplomatic relations with Israel, whose economy greatly benefited from the money it received."

http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0199291926.001.0001/acprof-9780199291922-chapter-11

 

[Amused]

Well since you are the moron quoting wikipedia, read your own source///
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reparations_for_World_War_II

Israel and Jews, in general
Further information: Reparations Agreement between Israel and West Germany
West Germany paid reparations to Israel and the World Jewish Congress for confiscated Jewish property under Nuremberg laws, forced labour and persecution. However, no reparations were paid for killed Jews during the Holocaust.

Cool. Then the US won't pay for blacks killed during and post slavery, just for theft, kidnapping, forced labor and oppression.

You're not winning this argument.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Cool. Then the US won't pay for blacks killed during and post slavery, just for theft, kidnapping, forced labor and oppression.

You're not winning this argument.

Of course he is. He called me a moron. Doesn't that mean he wins?

 

[pmv]

obvious point is obvious... and reinforces what you refuse to admit yet...

German reparations for WWII were mostly in the form of... wait for it....


FORCED LABOR.




Furthermore the group arguably that suffered the most, the Jewish Holocaust, got 0 reparations from Germany. Dick. Nada. Nothing.

I'm a bit embarrassed for you now. What's happened there, you see, is that you're trying to be too clever and you've overreached yourself. I'm quite surprised you hadn't heard of the German reparations paid to Israel, but the smart thing to do would to have been to do a quick google first.

There's still a bit of an ongoing row right now, I believe, about Jews reclaiming property taken from them in Poland (property which of course is now occupied by Poles who in many cases regard it as their legitimately-owned home). It can get very complex and morally-difficult, but it still goes on. Though personally I still fall back on the general point that nothing is created from nothing, and hence you can't just declare that wealth is owned absolutely by whoever happens to have ended up in possession of it, and so you can't get away from the point that society has a duty to meet people's needs, and that equality is an important value.

 

[Victorian Gray]

nm

 

[HomerJS]

I'm not stupid or racist. i'm enlightened. Even if you solved every racism, classism, sexism, -ism problem. There will still be inequality. It is not a solvable problem. Every person is born under unique circumstances. Every person has a unique environment and unique dna.

The fact is there will always be someone who is elite, and there will always be someone at the bottom. Whatever you lot in life, your duty is to be a good steward of your talents and opportunities.

I'm not elite, nor am i at the bottom of the barrel. I cant change where I was born, what color I was born, and who my parents were. But i will not apologize for the life I've lead or the opportunities I have had just because I am white, because my Stewardship demands I make the most of my life.

There is a quote in the Constitution that says, "in order to form a more perfect union". Your argument is were shouldn't bother aspiring towards the better