Grooveriding
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- Dec 25, 2008
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I would have to abstain from voting because the answer for me is yes and no. One half of my family is American and from the standpoint of the citizenry, it's as good as many other places. If you're talking about the administration and its foreign policy for the past 50+ years that becomes much harder to fit into a label of 'good'.
One of the early on posts where someone mentioned 'good, but no longer the best' is probably the best highlight. I think the continued propagation of that 'best' myth is doing a lot of disservice to the country as a whole not allowing the realization that there are problems that could be improved upon. Whenever I hear it said the quickest way to highlight its inaccuracy is the simple question of 'based on what metrics?'
Using any of the standard per capita metrics used to measure the quality of life for a country's citizens it falls behind other first world nations. Which in my opinion is the only sensible measure of a country's overall quality. If military might were the sole metric, I guess that would do it, but that is a dubious quality to label as a positive. It should be more a question of whether it is worthwhile to have that as the largest expenditure of resources over other priorities. Wealthiest nation ? Yes, but again, on a per/capita basis many other first world nations have a higher income rate and standard of living. There are more ultra rich billionaires in the US than anywhere else, but this is under 1000 people, how is that relevant to the other 300 million or so ?
The potential is there for it to be much more a 'good' and 'best' nation, a leader in progressing humanity forward - think moon landing, not playing at the world's police force. If I lived there I would be asking what the hell is the government doing wasting my tax dollars going around the world meddling and pissing everyone off. Also, how did they come to the conclusion they are the world's ordained moral compass ? Why not fix the economy, education and health systems at home - and if that can be managed - then see if you have resources left to help out elsewhere.
As a Canadian I see many similarities between our two cultures. If I were to highlight something that unsettles me about the US it would be the political system at large. There is a great deal of zealotry, corruption of media and frightening rhetoric in American politics. As a Canadian we have the unique experience of having as much exposure to American politics and news as we have to Canadian, giving us a context of comparison. Elections there are like some sort of perverse reality TV campaign. It's worrisome from the outside looking in when you hear some of the more entrenched and aggressive dogma from some political circles. Some of it is reminiscent of the ideologies that gave genesis to history's scarier moments.
One of the early on posts where someone mentioned 'good, but no longer the best' is probably the best highlight. I think the continued propagation of that 'best' myth is doing a lot of disservice to the country as a whole not allowing the realization that there are problems that could be improved upon. Whenever I hear it said the quickest way to highlight its inaccuracy is the simple question of 'based on what metrics?'
Using any of the standard per capita metrics used to measure the quality of life for a country's citizens it falls behind other first world nations. Which in my opinion is the only sensible measure of a country's overall quality. If military might were the sole metric, I guess that would do it, but that is a dubious quality to label as a positive. It should be more a question of whether it is worthwhile to have that as the largest expenditure of resources over other priorities. Wealthiest nation ? Yes, but again, on a per/capita basis many other first world nations have a higher income rate and standard of living. There are more ultra rich billionaires in the US than anywhere else, but this is under 1000 people, how is that relevant to the other 300 million or so ?
The potential is there for it to be much more a 'good' and 'best' nation, a leader in progressing humanity forward - think moon landing, not playing at the world's police force. If I lived there I would be asking what the hell is the government doing wasting my tax dollars going around the world meddling and pissing everyone off. Also, how did they come to the conclusion they are the world's ordained moral compass ? Why not fix the economy, education and health systems at home - and if that can be managed - then see if you have resources left to help out elsewhere.
As a Canadian I see many similarities between our two cultures. If I were to highlight something that unsettles me about the US it would be the political system at large. There is a great deal of zealotry, corruption of media and frightening rhetoric in American politics. As a Canadian we have the unique experience of having as much exposure to American politics and news as we have to Canadian, giving us a context of comparison. Elections there are like some sort of perverse reality TV campaign. It's worrisome from the outside looking in when you hear some of the more entrenched and aggressive dogma from some political circles. Some of it is reminiscent of the ideologies that gave genesis to history's scarier moments.
I think there once was a time when it was very easy to say "The USA is the best country in the world". The time of my grandparents. Following WWII I don't think there was a doubt in anyone's mind that we were the best. Then again we were competing against some pretty beat up or mediocre countries. Regardless we were the best and we were still getting better.
My Father up until recently was still saying that the USA is the best country in the world. The Babyboomers really benefited from everything the USA had to offer.
As for myself I have lived all over the place and 20 years ago I did move back to the USA because I felt it was the best place for me to live. It had everything I needed.
Today?
Well let me backup a minute. In my opinion defining how good a country is really depends on what part of your life you're in. I generally break it down like this, based on my personal experience.
Growing up
High School
College
Working before kids
Kids
Retirement
Now the USA is a big country but at least from what I've seen in the two States I've lived in and the other 48 I've visited I would say that growing up in the USA has changed dramatically over the last 20 to 40 years. Parents are now afraid to let their kids ride their bike to a friends house and there is a very constant fear of child predators. Real shame. So for this category I'd say that the USA has really fallen hard and you're better off growing up in another country. Interesting side note but my foreign friends do not understand the bullying in our movies. They don't have much bullying or hazing when they go to school.
High School? I thought it was terrible. Our test scores reflect that. I'd say our High School system has been awful for as long as my family can remember. The only good news is that it's free.
College? Outstanding. I went to several Universities in the USA as well as overseas and there is no question whatsoever that our University system is top notch. It needs a serious overhaul though when it comes to student loans and people getting degrees that will never yield a job. However if you get a real degree the USA is where it's at.
Up until the last 10 or so years it was pretty evident that if you were fresh out of college and wanted to bust your ass you could make a good life for yourself in the USA. Working before kids is where the USA used to be the real money maker. If the 2008 crash didn't happen I was on pace to be a multimillionaire. I should have been retired right now. Anyone who wanted to work hard, had a brain on their shoulders, a few good contacts, and a little bit of luck could be wildly successful in the US. I'm not sure that's true for today's college graduates. I'm hoping it will return.
Once you have kids is when the USA really goes downhill. I would say the USA is genuinely a bad place to have kids. Why? Pretty simple really. Unless you make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and have lots of time off work it's just not a nice place to be a parent. Daycare is too expensive. You need to save up enormous sums of money to cover their education. There is too much crime. There is an uneasy feeling that your children cannot play outside. Healthcare is too expensive. There is too little maternity leave and it's unpaid. There is not enough vacation time. Plainly put there are too many expenses and not enough time to spend with your children. The country prioritizes work over raising a family and when there are alternatives who needs that?
Retirement. Well the current statistics all point to the vast majority of Americans living in poverty in another generation. Too few people can or will save for retirement and will be living on $1400 social security checks. We are not unionized and do not have secure pension plans. Our cities are not build to have proper mass transit so getting around is only done by car which is difficult for many when they are older. It's just not a good place to spend your golden years.
So is the USA a good country? Sure. Is it great or the best? Hell no. Are there better countries to live in? Depends on what part of your life you're in but my answer is a resounding yes and I have moved back and forth accordingly.
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I wanted to touch on this since I often hear this from gung ho 'Muricans.
This is misleading. The people that come to America are those from 3rd world and developing countries. I know only 1 person in Europe who wanted to come to America. It was for a man though.
The United States is currently number 40 in the world for people immigrating. Behind many countries.
I'm currently on vacation in Sweden. I've been here before and let me just tell you that there are A LOT of immigrants here. Look up their numbers. Sweden has over TWICE the number of immigration per capita than the USA. They are beating down the door here.
The days where it was just endless blondes is over here.
mmazzariol
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Muse
Lifer
- Jul 11, 2001
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It's thinking like that that generates a ton of USA hate. Are you even thinking when you say things like that?
I didn't do the poll, a yes or no answer to this is just too brain dead. There's a lot to like about the USA, but a lot to hate too. I go into the stores and am appalled what they hope you'll buy. Freedom is great, democracy is a tremendous idea in the abstract but like Winston Churchill famously observed, your convictions about it are apt to falter after you have a 5 minute conversation with the typical voter.
I heartily endorse reading and rereading doubledeluxe's posts above.
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Muse
Lifer
- Jul 11, 2001
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Bump!
I grew up when everyone thought the USA was the greatest, and it was. Hard, really hard to accept that it isn't now, but I've doubted it so many times, so often, again and again, still there's a part of me that wants to think it still is, but it only comes out infrequently. I guess I don't believe it any more. It's kind of nutty. There's so much that happens in the USA that's discouraging now. You have to think positively though, there's no other way to live, and of course, there are great things happening, and you have to try to be part of that, not the crap.
I read an article today in the paper about a consortium that's trying to produce batteries 5x more powerful than lithium-ion and 5x cheaper and their target is 2017. Absolutely fantastic, and a big center of it is right here in Berkeley, CA.
I grew up when everyone thought the USA was the greatest, and it was. Hard, really hard to accept that it isn't now, but I've doubted it so many times, so often, again and again, still there's a part of me that wants to think it still is, but it only comes out infrequently. I guess I don't believe it any more. It's kind of nutty. There's so much that happens in the USA that's discouraging now. You have to think positively though, there's no other way to live, and of course, there are great things happening, and you have to try to be part of that, not the crap.
I read an article today in the paper about a consortium that's trying to produce batteries 5x more powerful than lithium-ion and 5x cheaper and their target is 2017. Absolutely fantastic, and a big center of it is right here in Berkeley, CA.
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I rather have the USA leading the world than China or Russia.
I saw a poll recently showing Germany as the most well liked country. Crazy...can you imagine the Germans leading the world? You are efficient, go work station 4. You are not efficient or productive, go to gas chamber 3.
I saw a poll recently showing Germany as the most well liked country. Crazy...can you imagine the Germans leading the world? You are efficient, go work station 4. You are not efficient or productive, go to gas chamber 3.
By far the greatest. Still more freedom than 90% of all countries. More different kinds of high quality people from all backgrounds than all other countries combined. 90% of the population living under functional atheism (defined as real daily life without God, and periodic perfunctory attention to religion during marriages, funerals, and baby births - lasting a few days and then receding into the unseen background). Sense of life and joie de vivre among the best in the world. Egalitarianism at a minimum, although it gets a lot of lip service. Less caving in to irrational envirofascism (again lots of lip service, but for example Keystone will get built sooner or later and we're fracking up a storm). Black president elected by 90% non-black population (where else would that happen?). Natural beauty and resources in top 10% of all countries? Check. Hated and envied by many countries? Check. We must be doing something right. Still the country that invented and will continue to perfect freedom as the central tenet? Check. Most powerful military that protects all the other stupid little collectivist countries that don't have one? Check. Invented baseball and football, sports that emphasize intellectuality and individuality over the mindless robotic collectivistic boring repetition of soccer? Check. Invented jazz, the music of on-the-spot improvisation and an artistic celebration of freedom? Check.
Me being able to write 20 more posts of this length filled with other lists of other superiorities, but I don't have the time and it would only be superfluous? Check.
Yeah, all in all, we blow away pretty much everyone. Will it continue? Maybe. Depends on how much we resist corrupt collectivist-egalitarian philosophies so loved and embraced in the rotting hell hole of Euro-World.
Me being able to write 20 more posts of this length filled with other lists of other superiorities, but I don't have the time and it would only be superfluous? Check.
Yeah, all in all, we blow away pretty much everyone. Will it continue? Maybe. Depends on how much we resist corrupt collectivist-egalitarian philosophies so loved and embraced in the rotting hell hole of Euro-World.
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Muse
Lifer
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Yeah, the Germans have a lot of living down their history to do to get people to forget/forgive what happened in the 1930's and 1940's there.
Muse
Lifer
- Jul 11, 2001
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Thanks for this post. Nothing new there to me, well not a ton, but it's great to see all that stuff stated neatly as you have. If you get inspired to do so, post some more, since you say you can really easily. Anyway, that's a great great post! :thumbsup:
PS edit: You convinced me to finally make my poll choice: Yes!
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There's some guy who "Ranks America". Lots of the stuff is kinda stupid but check it out.
http://rankingamerica.wordpress.com/
I thought I would address your post since I just started laughing when I read it.
1. Still more freedom than 90% of all countries.
There are 90 countries in the world that are considered free. So you got at least the number right. That adds up to about half the countries in the world. You can then add about another 50 countries that are partly free which leaves us with like 50 countries that have no freedom. So your claim that we have more freedom than 90% of all countries is false.
2. More different kinds of high quality people from all backgrounds than all other countries combined
Care to back this up? I don't even know how you quantified it.
3. 90% of the population living under functional atheism (defined as real daily life without God, and periodic perfunctory attention to religion during marriages, funerals, and baby births - lasting a few days and then receding into the unseen background)
The USA is very religious with 65% of our population finding it very important in their daily lives.
4. Sense of life and joie de vivre among the best in the world
The United States ranks 105 out of 111 countries for the happiest people or 17th behind Mexico depending on which happiness report you look at.
5. Egalitarianism at a minimum, although it gets a lot of lip service.
The USA ranks almost dead last for inequality among OECD countries. Not a good sign of egalitarianism.
6. Less caving in to irrational envirofascism (again lots of lip service, but for example Keystone will get built sooner or later and we're fracking up a storm)
This is a hot button environmental topic. Rather than get into the politics of it lets just look at our environmental record. Yale's EPI index ranks us 33rd out of 178 countries. Not bad but dead last for the developed world.
7. Black president elected by 90% non-black population (where else would that happen?)
Well if you read the news recently you would notice that an African country, Zambia, with almost no white people has a white president. Malawi elected a female president a few years ago. Obama is not a special snowflake. That's just off the top of my head.
8. Natural beauty and resources in top 10% of all countries? Check.
I personally find the western USA to be one of the most beautiful places on Earth but there are many others. Natural resources. As far as Natural Resources we're not in the top 10%. We're number 2. Fist bump we're awesome!
9. Hated and envied by many countries? Check.
Not something I would put on my list of why the USA is a great country. I'm taking my fist bump back.
10. Still the country that invented and will continue to perfect freedom as the central tenet? Check.
No. Just no. First you need to understand that there are many freedoms. We do not have them all in the USA but that does not mean we are not free. So freedom as an overall subject existed long before the USA was a country. Even freedom of religion has existed in parts of Europe since the 1500s or 1600s. Saying we invented and are perfecting freedom is just the height of ignorance.
11. Most powerful military that protects all the other stupid little collectivist countries that don't have one? Check.
Yay finally something we're number 1 at. We have the biggest military in the world. The world spends $1.7 trillion and we spend 39% of that. Yay! Fist bump again! Your second part is just rude and disrespectful. Where was the USA when Sudan needed us? What about in the CAR? Congo? What did we do to stop the Khmer Rouge? And so on...
12. Invented baseball and football, sports that emphasize intellectuality and individuality over the mindless robotic collectivistic boring repetition of soccer? Check.
Go Raiders! Honestly your opinion on sports is another stupid thing that has nothing to do with the greatest country in the world. I'm taking my fist bump back once again.
13. Invented jazz, the music of on-the-spot improvisation and an artistic celebration of freedom? Check.
I like Jazz too but I can't believe you brought it up here. No more fist bumps. I just want to facepalm.
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Zambia's "acting" white president was the vice president who was installed following the death of the black president. He wasn't elected, and he's temporary until the next election. Anyway...
I thoroughly reviewed your objections and observations, not to mention anticipating and expecting them, but found them to be without merit. Item 5 was misread. I agree with you and noted we were terrible in the equality department, meaning we have lots of inequality, which I think is a virtue. Anyway, after review and analysis, in my opinion, I was correct on all counts and will just proceed on that basis. Let's move on.
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Muse
Lifer
- Jul 11, 2001
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No disrespect, I'm in awe of you dd, kudos for speaking your mind, you do it so well. However, I think #13, jazz, is worthy of mention. Call me a music fiend, I kind of am, for sure.
A country's culture is an integral part of its quality. Jazz, the blues, bluegrass, country music, a major part of the innovation of the last almost hundred years in popular music can be attributed to efforts of artists of the U.S.A.
A whole lot of the technical innovation of the last ~100 years can also be attributed in large part to America, from mass production industrial plants to space to nuclear technology to Silicon Valley.
In my mind, what distinguishes America from other countries is that almost the whole populace is here by virtue of immigration. As such we are forced to work together, to accept that America's greatness exists by virtue of the sum of many cultures. I suppose that Australia and New Zealand can be said to be in this category (however, I think that they were colonized primarily by people from the U.K.), but they are way behind the U.S.A. in terms of what they have contributed to science, technology in general and art.
It can be said that those in the U.S.A. from Africa aren't immigrants, in the truest sense of the word, in that most of them did not come here of their free will. However IMO they are America's most important residents. I think that of all the ethnicities here, their removal would subtract more from the essence of what America is at this time than any other.
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I love our music. However stretching it to be an artistic celebration of freedom?
I really didn't want to touch this one with a 10 foot pole. Jazz is a product of our slavery days. It started after slavery from the music our slaves sang.
I really didn't want to touch this one with a 10 foot pole. Jazz is a product of our slavery days. It started after slavery from the music our slaves sang.
Why do I call it an artistic celebration of freedom? Because, unlike classical music, which is locked down to a written score save for minor temporal interpretation, jazz is based on creative improvisation on the spur of the moment. There is a freedom accorded to the artist to interpret all aspects of the harmonic and rhythmic structure based on individual personality and talent. It is an American contribution. Music is a reflection of philosophy and sense of life, and jazz is the quintessential American musical expression.
One of the main reasons America has a long history of being a beacon to the world is contained in its art. It wasn't philosophy lectures that let the world know that this place called America was a unique and magical place. It was our art. Our music. Our cinema. Projecting such a different basic attitude and contrast that it literally shouted an invitation, giving those under oppression hope that such a place as they saw and heard in our movies and music could actually exist.
Very true, especially in jazz. The highest compliment you can pay a male jazz artist is to say he plays like a black man.
Mini hijack, but what do you think of Eldar Djangirov? I recently discovered him and I am awe struck. He sounds like the love child of Oscar Peterson and Sergei Rachmaninoff!
America was the first true melting pot in the world. At least I think it was. In 100 years though it will not stick out in the least. I am absolutely shocked at the amount of immigration all throughout the world today. It's growing by leaps and bounds. If you look at the percent of foreign born the USA is actually dropping. I think we're at (let me look it up) 14% but there are tons of other countries now that are just opening their borders and being flooded by other nationalities. What I think made the USA very special though is that we didn't do it to meet occupation quotas or because our education system couldn't support enough doctors. We just did it with open arms and flourished from it.
Like I said above though the question in the OP really does require some specifics. Is the US a good country for you, right now? That's one question. Another question would be if it was a good country 50 or 100 years ago. All of these have different answers. People are ignoring whether the USA is good today to talk about when it was good long ago. Do I think our music today is great? Not particularly. Put in perspective our best artist today is Taylor Swift. I thinks she's good but she's not Michael Jackson good or Miles Davis good and she's not even Adele, Ed Shearan, Cold Play, or Avicii good. Music sales today are changing but there aren't even any platinum artists this year. Do I think our music was great 20 years ago? Absolutely. Now this is just my personal opinion and although I tried to back up my statements above I wouldn't even know where to begin to quantify this. I just can't imagine that anyone here is thinking "Damn Miley Cyrus and Taylor Swift really are better than Madonna and Elvis!"
I just think everything is relative.
I also think that blanket statements where we flag wave and fist pump how awesome we are really hurts our progress. The USA is faltering in category after category. Not just a little bit either. We talk about freedom yet we discriminate against homosexuals, legislate what a woman can do with her body, and are the only country in the developed world to not mandate paid time off. We talk about religious tolerance yet we have spent decades either causing political instability in the middle east or bombing them. Freedom of the Press? Need I remind everyone about Edward Snowden? We now imprison whisleblowers and give longer prison sentences than we would for most rape and murder cases. Would you like me to go on? NSA? Patriot Act?
We cannot get better if we don't recognize our faults and fix them. It's time to pull our heads out of the sand.
Like I said above though the question in the OP really does require some specifics. Is the US a good country for you, right now? That's one question. Another question would be if it was a good country 50 or 100 years ago. All of these have different answers. People are ignoring whether the USA is good today to talk about when it was good long ago. Do I think our music today is great? Not particularly. Put in perspective our best artist today is Taylor Swift. I thinks she's good but she's not Michael Jackson good or Miles Davis good and she's not even Adele, Ed Shearan, Cold Play, or Avicii good. Music sales today are changing but there aren't even any platinum artists this year. Do I think our music was great 20 years ago? Absolutely. Now this is just my personal opinion and although I tried to back up my statements above I wouldn't even know where to begin to quantify this. I just can't imagine that anyone here is thinking "Damn Miley Cyrus and Taylor Swift really are better than Madonna and Elvis!"
I just think everything is relative.
I also think that blanket statements where we flag wave and fist pump how awesome we are really hurts our progress. The USA is faltering in category after category. Not just a little bit either. We talk about freedom yet we discriminate against homosexuals, legislate what a woman can do with her body, and are the only country in the developed world to not mandate paid time off. We talk about religious tolerance yet we have spent decades either causing political instability in the middle east or bombing them. Freedom of the Press? Need I remind everyone about Edward Snowden? We now imprison whisleblowers and give longer prison sentences than we would for most rape and murder cases. Would you like me to go on? NSA? Patriot Act?
We cannot get better if we don't recognize our faults and fix them. It's time to pull our heads out of the sand.
Well, I stumbled upon the Zambia bit first and since it was so obviously misleading and agendized and wrong, I decided not to play games with the rest of the items on the numbered list, except for 5 as I explained.
I gave my opinion as to why I think America is the best country in the world. Without even bringing up how we saved the rest of the world from oblivion on a few occasions. Which we of course did.
I once heard someone claim that no matter where you went in the world people had heard of Coke, Michael Jackson, or Mickey Mouse. No clue if that's true or not. Might have just been propaganda. Think pizza, pussy, santa.
Having lived overseas I don't think the USA has been a beacon for a while. Freedom? Jobs? Beacon for what? This is a talking point but can you back it up? I struggle to get people to go to the USA to see it's amazing natural beauty. We really aren't popular today. From the NSA to Drone Strikes to war after war the political landscape makes us ugly. People can come to the USA for jobs but it's not what it used to be. What light do we shine today that will make people choose us over say Norway or Germany?
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