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Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,767
435
126
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Braznor
Regarding your original question, OP.

Yep, it was Islamist fanaticism which did Benazir in. I have no cause to love Musharaff (the bastard was about to nuke my nation!) But I have to admit he is the least worst mofo there for us at present.

Considering your own Hindu fanaticism expressed by yourself you should probably just shut the fuck up aright about now

You are arguing for your own against the other side and just so you are aware of it, Hindus or Muslims, i really could not care less.

For those with access to the intelligence reports (all two of us?) regarding the LTTE we all know that Hindu's were the worst source of terrorism before the US (no, the US admin) decided it was a great idea to invade Iraq with one fifth of the troops needed.

A an aside superior force does work, but you fucking need to use it to work, look at how Israel did it or England in Falklands for that matter.

Look soldier, call me what the fvck you want.

I'm a writer and I like rhetoric and yes, that doesn't make a fanatic though. But trust me, I would rather let you do what you believe of me than bother correcting your impression. Here is the fact, the LTTE has nothing to do with Hinduism or anything I had to talk here. Yes, superior force works, but it needs proper application. Exactly the fvck I'm arguing here.

I'm not a soldier, i'm an officer, a Captain more specifically, and what was dug up and posed about you that you wrote was fanaticism the size of Talibans.

Yet the LTTE consists of what? Hindus? You know it and i know it, we both know they are responsible for classic terrorist acts and plenty of them. You saying that they have nothing to do with Hindusim is akin to Magomago saying that islamic groups committing terrorist acts has nothing to do with Islam.

Then we have several thousands of cases of battery acid attacks in India (if i can't rape her anymore i'm going to make sure no one else wants to).

These are people, not religions, evil will exists with or without it but to make yourself up as some kind of superior compared to Pakistanis, well, that shit just won't fly with me.

Well, excuse me. I really respect you for what you are. Yes, many of the LTTE are Hindus, but they are not fighting for Hinduism and unlike Magomago, I don't give much of a flying fvck for their tactics or them.

I'm not gonna justify them anyhow. Yes, they are fcvking terrorists and need to be dropped like flies before peace is established there. I speak this despite belonging to their ethnic group, tamil.

I have relatives who had to leave Sri Lanka abandoning things like entire schools and estates there, but violence is still not the answer. The LTTE needs to be dropped like flies.

Now would Magomago argue that for Hamas?


 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,767
435
126
Regarding Hinduism, you are really confused as I would expect anyone to be,

Hinduism is not an organized religion like Christianity or Islam. It includes THOUSANDS of sects and MILLIONs of gods. It is a generalized way to refer to the spiritual practices of South Asia (one of which is Buddhism)

It is a grand democracy and melting pot of religions and belief, somewhat a 'spiritual' America.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Braznor
Regarding your original question, OP.

Yep, it was Islamist fanaticism which did Benazir in. I have no cause to love Musharaff (the bastard was about to nuke my nation!) But I have to admit he is the least worst mofo there for us at present.

Considering your own Hindu fanaticism expressed by yourself you should probably just shut the fuck up aright about now

You are arguing for your own against the other side and just so you are aware of it, Hindus or Muslims, i really could not care less.

For those with access to the intelligence reports (all two of us?) regarding the LTTE we all know that Hindu's were the worst source of terrorism before the US (no, the US admin) decided it was a great idea to invade Iraq with one fifth of the troops needed.

A an aside superior force does work, but you fucking need to use it to work, look at how Israel did it or England in Falklands for that matter.

Look soldier, call me what the fvck you want.

I'm a writer and I like rhetoric and yes, that doesn't make a fanatic though. But trust me, I would rather let you do what you believe of me than bother correcting your impression. Here is the fact, the LTTE has nothing to do with Hinduism or anything I had to talk here. Yes, superior force works, but it needs proper application. Exactly the fvck I'm arguing here.

I'm not a soldier, i'm an officer, a Captain more specifically, and what was dug up and posed about you that you wrote was fanaticism the size of Talibans.

Yet the LTTE consists of what? Hindus? You know it and i know it, we both know they are responsible for classic terrorist acts and plenty of them. You saying that they have nothing to do with Hindusim is akin to Magomago saying that islamic groups committing terrorist acts has nothing to do with Islam.

Then we have several thousands of cases of battery acid attacks in India (if i can't rape her anymore i'm going to make sure no one else wants to).

These are people, not religions, evil will exists with or without it but to make yourself up as some kind of superior compared to Pakistanis, well, that shit just won't fly with me.

Well, excuse me. I really respect you for what you are. Yes, many of the LTTE are Hindus, but they are not fighting for Hinduism and unlike Magomago, I don't give much of a flying fvck for their tactics or them.

I'm not gonna justify them anyhow. Yes, they are fcvking terrorists and need to be dropped like flies before peace is established there. I speak this despite belonging to their ethnic group, tamil.

I have relatives who had to leave Sri Lanka abandoning things like entire schools and estates there, but violence is still not the answer. The LTTE needs to be dropped like flies.

Now would Magomago argue that for Hamas?


Well you are the bigger man then because acknowledging that your side may be wrong makes you just that.

And i agree, they need to be as iradicated as Hamas, islamic Jihad or whatever.

I actually don't think he would considering that they have bombed israel for years afte the ceasefire, i don't hink he would.

I don't know the man though, it was more of a knee jerk reaction there, you are a Hindu and he is a Muslim, personally i am an Atheist but if we get Christianity and Judaism in here we can get ready to rumble. ;)
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: Braznor
Regarding Hinduism, you are really confused as I would expect anyone to be,

Hinduism is not an organized religion like Christianity or Islam. It includes THOUSANDS of sects and MILLIONs of gods. It is a generalized way to refer to the spiritual practices of South Asia (one of which is Buddhism)

It is a grand democracy and melting pot of religions and belief, somewhat a 'spiritual' America.

I'm fairly well versed in Hinduism, i think and i would say that it is more the same than different, like different variations, of cours Christians do that too and probably more than Hindu's but i am definently not an expert and as i understand it India of today has given up most of the chaste system in public but it matters a lot in society still.

If i am wrong about this then please correct me, i am more than willing to learn from a real Hindu frist hand.

I guess is what i am asking above is not easy to answer, just like most of the "why's" in life that has to do with something more than just your observaions.
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,767
435
126
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Braznor
Regarding Hinduism, you are really confused as I would expect anyone to be,

Hinduism is not an organized religion like Christianity or Islam. It includes THOUSANDS of sects and MILLIONs of gods. It is a generalized way to refer to the spiritual practices of South Asia (one of which is Buddhism)

It is a grand democracy and melting pot of religions and belief, somewhat a 'spiritual' America.

I'm fairly well versed in Hinduism, i think and i would say that it is more the same than different, like different variations, of cours Christians do that too and probably more than Hindu's but i am definently not an expert and as i understand it India of today has given up most of the chaste system in public but it matters a lot in society still.

If i am wrong about this then please correct me, i am more than willing to learn from a real Hindu frist hand.

I guess is what i am asking above is not easy to answer, just like most of the "why's" in life that has to do with something more than just your observaions.

Actually, Hinduism/Islam/Christianity/anything doesn't matter at all anymore in my world. I have myself changed a lot in the past few years. India is a beacon of light in the middle of hell, even though it may be a craphole by western standards. All I want is that candle of civilization preserved in that part of the world. You seen the evil that goes on there, can you grudge my rhetoric and idealism I really have for this place?

Ideally I desire an India where religion/caste is irrelevant and yes, I wish India could contribute because the Indian Army is an expert at mountain warfare and insurgency operations.

You need more boots on the ground there than you realize. Small CT teams deal with only one end of the problem i.e. the actual terrorists. But what about the moderate voices you need to protect? The local leaders and so on?

It would take an international effort larger than we realize at the present to combat this, perhaps the greatest in human history.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
307
126
Look at John, he knows how the world operates. Specifically how an obsfucated term like Hinduism is such a concrete epitomisation. Glory to captian John! For he will deliver ignorance out of this world on his cerussite wand. Whoa are we to be mere mortals in his presence, for he strictly enforces his interpretations, lest we mete out the same fate. From the plateaus of inconsequential life to the valleys of their nefarious offspring, he will search and destroy perturbatives. We are in the end saved from ourselves. Yeah team.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Back on topic?

It seems highly likely that her killing was done or motivated by Islamic Radicals.
As a few people have pointed out, Musharraf seemed to have more to lose by her death than by her living. With her living he can ?use? her to maintain his hold on power. With her gone he is back to square one so to speak.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Wait! LOL I just heard fox say "Is Capitalism and the free market the answer to a stable and peaceful Pakistan?"

You have got to be kidding me. Instead of saying "Is freedom and democracy the answer" . WOW! Idiots
 

event8horizon

Senior member
Nov 15, 2007
674
0
0
the nazi's and our cia helped create the al qaeda we know of today. check out this article:
The Muslim Brotherhood, Nazis and Al-Qaeda
http://www.john-loftus.com/MB_N_AQ.htm

some points in the article:

At the end of World War II, the Muslim Brotherhood was wanted for war crimes. Their German intelligence handlers were captured in Cairo. The whole net was rolled up by the British Secret Service. Then a horrible thing happened.
Instead of prosecuting the Nazis -- the Muslim Brotherhood -- the British government hired them.
They brought all the fugitive Nazi war criminals of Arab and Muslim descent into Egypt, and for three years they were trained on a special mission. The British Secret Service wanted to use the fascists of the Muslim Brotherhood to strike down the infant state of Israel in 1948.
Only a few people in the Mossad know this, but many of the members of the Arab Armies and terrorist groups that tried to strangle the infant State of Israel were the Arab Nazis of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Britain was not alone.
The French intelligence service cooperated by releasing the Grand Mufti and smuggling him to Egypt, so all of the Arab Nazis came together.
So, from 1945 to 1948, the British Secret Service protected every Arab Nazi they could, but they failed to quash the State of Israel.
What the British did then, in the 1950's they sold the Arab Nazis to the predecessor of what became the CIA.
It may sound stupid; it may sound evil, but it did happen.
The idea was that we were going to use the Arab Nazis in the Middle East as a counterweight to the Arab communists. Just as the Soviet Union was funding Arab communists, we would fund the Arab Nazis to fight against them. And lots of secret conflicts took place. We kept the Muslim Brotherhood on our payroll.
But the Egyptians became nervous. Nasser ordered all of the Muslim Brotherhood out of Egypt or be imprisoned, or he would execute them all.
During the 1950's, the CIA evacuated the Nazis of the Muslim Brotherhood to Saudi Arabia.
Now when they arrived in Saudi Arabia, some of the leading lights of the Muslim Brotherhood like Azzam, became the teachers in the Madrasas, the religious schools. And there they combined the doctrines of Nazism with this weird Islamic cult, Wahhabiism. Everyone thinks that Islam is this fanatical religion, but it is not. They think that Wahabbism- the Saudi version of Islam -- is typical, but it's not.

now consider the fact that indian intelligence busted general Mahmoud Ahmad (head of the pakistani ISI) sending Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh down to dubai to send mohammad atta 100,000 dollars. Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh is supposedly mi6, or roguse mi6, or a double agent. mahmoud ahmad was also having breakfast on 9-11 with porter goss (cia) and bob grahm. i believe they are both florida reps.....many hijackers were from fl. just connections....im not reading into it.
i just wonder if the U.S. has interogated these guys yet!!! the isi is or at least was connected to al qaeda. the cia is connected to the isi. so her death, i think, would benefit the isi and the cia.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: yllus
*shakes head* Bhutto was Musharraf's ticket to holding onto power, albeit in a limited form. That ticket is now dead. He had nothing to gain from this.

That's what I'm hearing from supposidly informed sources.

She wasn't his problem, she was his solution.

His problem is a 4% approval rating. She, and her popularity, were his ladder to climb out of that hole.

Do I believe Taliban/AQ was behind it? Sure they've been hard after her for quite a while. That's no secret.

Do I believe the Pak intellgence agency could have been involved? Yeah, it's also well known that Taliban/AQ has infiltrated the intel ag and the military.

Musharaf's had 9 attempts on his own life so far. And Bhutto was open and very public about her intention to run the Taliban/AQ right out of Pakistan. She also wanted US military in Pak. She was likely gonna win and help Musharaf retain some power. Seems to me all the motivation lies with teh Taliban/AQ.

I saw the tapes early that morning the day she died. The one released then showed her getting into her car. She was in the back with a security agent on both sides of her. I was therefor wondering how the h3ll she was able to be killed. Now I see she opened the sun roof and stood up outside the car through the roof. IMO, that's f'ing stupid. You'll never have an easier target - no one next to her and up high above the crowd.

For someone apparently as worried about assasination attempts as her, this behavior makes no sense. I don't see why her personal security team didn't stop her either.

Fern
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: MadRat
If you believe anyone but our own cia killed bhutto then you know something Musharraf does not. It was a wakeup call to him timed to coincide with a forceful offer of troops to clean up their tribal regions. Until government control is asserted in the far reaches of the north and western ends then the US cannot root out rebels in the mountains. The afghan counterinsurgency is too important to the US to lose.

If the CIA had a hand init, they're rogue acting contrary to the Admin's stated policy.

If the GWB bears any fault it is for encouraging Bhutto to return to help pull Musharaf's chestnuts out of the fire.

Fern
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
76
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: yllus
*shakes head* Bhutto was Musharraf's ticket to holding onto power, albeit in a limited form. That ticket is now dead. He had nothing to gain from this.

That's what I'm hearing from supposidly informed sources.

She wasn't his problem, she was his solution.

His problem is a 4% approval rating. She, and her popularity, were his ladder to climb out of that hole.

Do I believe Taliban/AQ was behind it? Sure they've been hard after her for quite a while. That's no secret.

Do I believe the Pak intellgence agency could have been involved? Yeah, it's also well known that Taliban/AQ has infiltrated the intel ag and the military.

Musharaf's had 9 attempts on his own life so far. And Bhutto was open and very public about her intention to run the Taliban/AQ right out of Pakistan. She also wanted US military in Pak. She was likely gonna win and help Musharaf retain some power. Seems to me all the motivation lies with teh Taliban/AQ.

I saw the tapes early that morning the day she died. The one released then showed her getting into her car. She was in the back with a security agent on both sides of her. I was therefor wondering how the h3ll she was able to be killed. Now I see she opened the sun roof and stood up outside the car through the roof. IMO, that's f'ing stupid. You'll never have an easier target - no one next to her and up high above the crowd.

For someone apparently as worried about assasination attempts as her, this behavior makes no sense. I don't see why her personal security team didn't stop her either.

Fern

Police abandoned security posts before Bhutto assassination

No autopsy performed on body; docs say bullet wounds not found

By Nick Juliano

12/28/07 http://rawstory.com/news/2007/...efore_Bhutto_1228.html -- -- Police abandoned their security posts shortly before Pakistani opposition leader Benazir Bhutto's assassination Thursday, according to a journalist present at the time, and unanswerable questions remain about the cause of her death, because an autopsy was never performed.

Pakistan's Interior Minister on Friday said that Bhutto was not killed by gunshots, as had been widely reported, and doctors at Rawalpindi General Hospital, where she died, say there were no bullet marks on the former prime minister's body, according to India's IBNLive.com. Furthermore, according to the news agency, there was no formal autopsy performed on Bhutto's body before she was buried Friday.

CNN is now reporting that it wasn't gunshots or shrapnel that killed Bhutto, but that she died from hitting the sunroof of the car she was riding in. The network said sources in Pakistan's Interior Ministry said nothing entered her skull, no bullets or shrapnel.

Apparently there was some kind of lever on the sunroof she was standing through, and she hit her head on that CNN reported Friday morning.

Earlier in the day Interior Minister Hamid Nawaz told a Pakistani news channel, ?The report says she had head injuries ? an irregular patch ? and the X-ray doesn?t show any bullet in the head. So it was probably the shrapnel or any other thing has struck her in her said. That damaged her brain, causing it to ooze and her death. The report categorically says there?s no wound other than that," according to IBNLive.

Perhaps more shockingly, an attendee at the rally where Bhutto was killed says police charged with protecting her "abandoned their posts," leaving just a handful of Bhutto's own bodyguards protecting her.

"Police officers had frisked the 3,000 to 4,000 people attending Thursday's rally when they entered the park, but as the speakers from Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party droned on, the police abandoned many of their posts," wrote Saeed Shah in an essay published by McClatchy News Service. "As she drove out through the gate, her main protection appeared to be her own bodyguards, who wore their usual white T-shirts inscribed: 'Willing to die for Benazir.'"

While some intelligence officials, especially within the US, were quick to finger al Qaeda militants as responsible for Bhutto's death, it remains unclear precisely who was responsible and some speculation has centered on Pakistan's intelligence service, the ISI, its military or even forces loyal to the current president Pervez Musharraf. Rawalpindi, where Bhutto was killed, is the garrison city that houses the Pakistani military's headquarters.

"GHQ (general headquarters of the army) killed her," Sardar Saleem, a former member of parliament, told Shah at the hospital.

Whatever the case, Bhutto's precise cause of death may never be known because of the failure to administer an autopsy. The procedure was not carried out because police and local authorities in Rawalpindi did not request one, according to IBNLive, but the government plans a formal investigation why this was the case.

Musharraf initially blamed her death on unnamed Islamic militants, but Interior Minister Hamid Nawaz told The Associated Press on Friday that "we have the evidence that al-Qaida and the Taliban were behind the suicide attack on Benazir Bhutto."

He said investigators had resolved the "whole mystery" behind the opposition leader's killing and would give details at press conference later Friday

---------------------------

Really weird this.


 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,767
435
126
It's no secret that the Pakistani Intelligence (ISI) is pretty much a rogue organization. I doubt anyone can rein in its activities, including Musharaff.

So even if the ISI was involved with assassinating bhutto, Musharaff most definitely won't be.

Come on, folks. Mushy didn't do this dirty deed. The assassination bought his worst enemies back into the limelight, men he had hoped to sideline by building an alliance with Bhutto with U.S. approval. I cannot imagine he would plan something as stupid as that.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
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Originally posted by: MadRat
Look at John, he knows how the world operates. Specifically how an obsfucated term like Hinduism is such a concrete epitomisation. Glory to captian John! For he will deliver ignorance out of this world on his cerussite wand. Whoa are we to be mere mortals in his presence, for he strictly enforces his interpretations, lest we mete out the same fate. From the plateaus of inconsequential life to the valleys of their nefarious offspring, he will search and destroy perturbatives. We are in the end saved from ourselves. Yeah team.

Christ man, did you spike your nog with too much LSD or is this how you are?

Anyway, i don't know know many words you wrote, including captian, obsfucated epitomisaten and pertubatives.

Good thing when you are making up shit that i said, don't make up words all on your own or at least learn how to fucking spell them you twat.

I like how you bow before me thow, just don't throw up on my shoes, just shined them.

 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: Braznor
It's no secret that the Pakistani Intelligence (ISI) is pretty much a rogue organization. I doubt anyone can rein in its activities, including Musharaff.

So even if the ISI was involved with assassinating bhutto, Musharaff most definitely won't be.

Come on, folks. Mushy didn't do this dirty deed. The assassination bought his worst enemies back into the limelight, men he had hoped to sideline by building an alliance with Bhutto with U.S. approval. I cannot imagine he would plan something as stupid as that.

It would not surprise me if this was made by Hindu extremists who wants to take over the world and convert them... You know, you and your pals.

It's more likely than the ISI doing it.
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,767
435
126
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Braznor
It's no secret that the Pakistani Intelligence (ISI) is pretty much a rogue organization. I doubt anyone can rein in its activities, including Musharaff.

So even if the ISI was involved with assassinating bhutto, Musharaff most definitely won't be.

Come on, folks. Mushy didn't do this dirty deed. The assassination bought his worst enemies back into the limelight, men he had hoped to sideline by building an alliance with Bhutto with U.S. approval. I cannot imagine he would plan something as stupid as that.

It would not surprise me if this was made by Hindu extremists who wants to take over the world and convert them... You know, you and your pals.

It's more likely than the ISI doing it.

LOL!

 

Sinsear

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2007
6,439
80
91


Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

You go to Tchad which is where i am going next and pull a gun and i promise you, i'll make you go vertigo before you even touch it.


See, punkarses running around doesn't matter much to me until they get in my way.

Don't get in my way.

Go dildo your little Ron Paul arse somewhere else rather than responding to my replies, ok?


you are an egoistic bitch that assumes that everyone is like you but if they were, you'd cry all the time since you are such an egoistic bitch.

There is not man, woman or child in this world that would ever respect you, remember that.


If it was so you could get to lick my balls, well, i'm sorry son, it's a no go.

Now go play in the corner with the other retards.

Sincerely, John


don't make up words all on your own or at least learn how to fucking spell them you twat.


Her Majesty must be very proud of your ability to post on internet forums and insult everyone you talk to or threaten them with acts of violence. I, for one, find it very disrespectful and quite unbecoming from what is expected from a career military officer.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
^ agreeing with Sinsear, you give the Brits a bad name.

Now if we can just get a nice French guy and the whole world will be turned upside down.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106

She said he should bear SOME of the blame because he didn't meet all her security requests. Not like he wanted her dead and arranged for the assasination.

I still wonder the h3ll she stood up through the roof. What'd she want? Musharaf to provide her a "Pope Bubble"?

Fern
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Back on topic?

It seems highly likely that her killing was done or motivated by Islamic Radicals.
As a few people have pointed out, Musharraf seemed to have more to lose by her death than by her living. With her living he can ?use? her to maintain his hold on power. With her gone he is back to square one so to speak.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have to agree that in all probability, it was some sort of Al-Quida operation. But beyond that we will likely never know for sure, and in those type events, what may move mobs and the people, short and long term, is what they emotionally believe.

The nearest comparable case may be the assassination of Harria in Lebanon. Its never been proved that Syria done it, but almost overnight almost everyone assumed Syria did, and as a result the Syrian occupation of Lebanon became immediately untenable. Intermediate term the big winners may have become Hezzbollah and Iran as a bloody Israeli incursion into Lebanon was partly triggered by that instability and events continue to play out. And the Lebanese central government remains a basket case. As Lebanon still has not recovered from a civil war almost three decades ago.

In contrast Pakistan is an entirely different situation. The vast majority of the population are firmly invested in embracing modern ideals of technology and governance, and as a result
the reactionary ideals of fundamentalist Islam with its Sharia law is something that won't sell and has little appeal. But there are still parts of Pakistan, the so called tribal areas, where Pakistan is little changed in a thousand years. And those areas seamlessly blend into
Afghanistan where the concept of international borders have little relevance to locals and are just quaint ideas of mapmakers. And there the situation is very different as modern Western ideas have very little traction or appeal. Because the populations have never seen any benefit from it. And because Afghanistan has not have any kind of real stable central government in its history, local tribal ties remain strong as a hardscrabble existence is possible without the benefits of modernity.

In the late 1970's Afghanistan became a political football as the Soviet Union annexed Afghanistan and the final death knell of this for this pastoral lifestyle started. The US responded by arming Afghani resistance fighters with shoulder fired missiles that would take out helicopters that amounted to the only means of practical transport in regions lacking roads. And in the process these fighters rallied around their religion and traditional values. Soon the Russian were sent packing and Afghanistan descended into a civil war. But finally the locals saw two benefits to Western civilization. Modern weapons were effective tools and there was a fortune to be made in opium cultivation by those who were organized
as local distributors. And the money bought arms and local control of fiefdoms. And money and power is a currency understood worldwide. With those few resultant war lords then resulting all invested in maintaining the Afghani anarchy that brought them control.

Per say, that would not have effected Pakistan all that much where the benefits of modern technology were much more peaceful and apparent. But Pakistan is sandwiched into a box.
Facing a hostile India to the East and with all land based trade routes to the West and North
going through Afghanistan, an unstable Afghanistan is a Pakistani national security concern
of the first order. But from the Pakistani viewpoint, they did not care what kind of political rat hole Afghanistan was, they needed the trade routes an Afghanistan in anarchy could not provide. And thus Pakistan helped create the Taliban who partly used religion in the ways
religions have always been used which is to aid in gaining power and control.

And the joint Pakistani Taliban plan worked, soon trade routes opened, and the world shook its head in bemused horror as the nutty taliban used 3000 year old historical monuments for artillery practice. And primitive Sharia law swept the land as women were disenfranchised. But at least the power of the war lords were broken and opium cultivation almost totally stopped. And there the situation would have fossilized except for Al-Quida and 911.

And suddenly Pakistan became the political football because getting into Afghanistan to remove the Taliban required a landbase. And there were just two choices. Pakistan or Iran.
Since Iran was not an option that left Pakistan as teh lucky country. And Washington made Musharrif an offer he could not refuse. But it was apparent that the Pakistani downside would be a temporary loss of these trade routes through Afghanistan which was not going to go over well. In exchange Musharrif got substantial bribes and a pledge from Washington to not put US boots on the ground in Pakistani soil except along roads in and out of Afghanistan. Under those terms Musharrif was able to sell the deal without being deposed.

But like Iraq, the US went in far too light and made a botch of it early on. The first mistake they made was in allying with the Northern alliance. The very thugs who cultivated opium and kept the country in anarchy. But the US plan worked, soon the Taliban was routed, and a newly armed Northern alliance was soon back setting up their local fiefdoms and back in the drug business. But when it came time to get the head of Bin Laden, the Northern alliance didn't care, not their fight. And if we had Bin laden cornered in Tora Bora, we can blame US expediency in letting him slip away because we decided to let the Northern alliance take the causalities. And they simple outsmarted us and opted not to.

As for the Afghani trade routes, they were toast. AND STILL ARE. And still will be for the foreseeable future. Because the USA has built nothing to bring any of the benefits of modernity to the Afghani people. Maybe we built a few show roads and schools, Karzi is the de facto mayor of Kabul but still very little has been done because no money has been invested. And Musharrif is quite furious at Karzi because he expends no effort to break the power of the warlords who rule everything outside of Kabul. Because until their power is again broken, the trade routes Pakistan needs are toast.

As for the Taliban and Al-Quida, they fled into the tribal areas of Pakistan where they now cause mischief and control some cities. They have also fled into Pakistani large Urban areas
where they again partly feed the religious right. And they can also easily flee into anyone of the Stans to the North so anyone who thinks its going to be an easy military problem to eradicate them is out of their mind.

And to add injury to US insult, the taliban is back into Afghanistan with yearly summer offense. And sadly they have free rein in the countryside. Catching the locals in the same
problem Iraqis have, they try to stay uninvolved, because if the taliban don't kill em the US will. And will tell each side what they want to hear but they just wish both would go away.

But back to our out of their minds overoptimistic leadership who fails to understand why they failed now think they can simply go into the tribal areas of Pakistan. And Musharrif
knows he will be deposed if the US puts boots on the ground in Pakistan. So enter Bhutto
who favors US intervention.

Now who had motive and opportunity?

 

event8horizon

Senior member
Nov 15, 2007
674
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we could get real crazy and include the infamous mossad!!
this shows cooperation-
ISI, CIA and Mossad carried out a covert transfer of Soviet-made Palestine Liberation Organization and Lebanese weapons captured by the Israelis during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in June 1982 and their subsequent transfer to Pakistan and then into Afghanistan. All knowledge of this weapon transfer was kept secret and was only made public recently.

this shows the mossad was up to something (in india)
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi...adart.cgi?ArtNum=18636

On January 12 (2000)Indian intelligence officials in Calcutta detained 11 foreign nationals for interrogation before they were to board a Dhaka-bound Bangladesh Biman flight. They were detained on the suspicion of being hijackers. "But we realised that they were tabliqis (Islamic preachers), so we let them go," said an intelligence official. They had planned to attend an Islamic convention near Dhaka, but Bangladesh refused them visa. Later, seemingly under Israeli pressure, India allowed them to fly to Tel Aviv.

"They had landing permits at Dhaka, but that's not visa," said a diplomat in the Bangladesh High Commission in Delhi. "We decided not to entertain them anymore because we cannot take chances."

The eleven had Israeli passports but were believed to be Afghan nationals who had spent a while in Iran. They had secured landing permits for Dhaka and one- way tickets on Bangladesh Biman's Calcutta-Delhi route through a Delhi-based travel agency.

this is why they were stopped from what the article says-
On January 11, the Bureau of Civil Aviation Security (BCAS) issued a top secret circular (NO: ER/BCAS/PIC/CIRCULAR/99), quoting "an intelligence input" about a possible hijack attempt on a Bangladesh Biman aircraft originating out of India. Copies of the circular signed by regional deputy commissioner of security (Calcutta Airport), L. Singsit, were issued to relevant Indian agencies and Bangladesh Biman's station manager in Calcutta, Md. Shahjahan. It said that eight "Pushtu-speaking Mujahideen" had infiltrated into India for the purpose.

just think if these guys (the muslim facade) had been fingered in 9-11...linking afghanistan and iran. interesting thought....


 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,829
10,130
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Originally posted by: Fern
For someone apparently as worried about assasination attempts as her, this behavior makes no sense. I don't see why her personal security team didn't stop her either.

Fern

She also said something along the lines of "No true Muslim would kill me". She was obviously out of touch with the people of Pakistan and had no real idea how bad that country had become since she last lived there.

That?s probably why.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
^ agreeing with Sinsear, you give the Brits a bad name.

Now if we can just get a nice French guy and the whole world will be turned upside down.

You have to love how arrogant fat arsed Americans like yourself sit and make generalisations about people (and yeah, i do realise the irony in that statement, it was intentional).

I am glad you took the time out of your busy schedule of posting about improvements in Iraq and Sinsears quips in pretty much all thread to find and quote my posts, i must be a really special lad to you.

Coming from the two of you, it's the nicest compliment you could have given me.

Thank you, thank you very very much.

 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
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^ Jeesh. Sees to me that your posting style has changed dramatically latey.

Fern