Do Intel MLC SSDs support the new TRIM command?

[meson2000]

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on the 160gig Intel MLC SSD from newegg. I know OCZ updated the firmware on their Vertex drives to include the new TRIM ATA command. I haven't been able to find info in the 'net if Intel has or is planning on updating the firmware on their SSDs as well? I just don't want to pay all this $$$ for the current SSD if Intel plans on screwing everyone and releasing a new hardware version in the next few months and only give the new version support for the TRIM command...

 

[taltamir]

that is why i am actually waiting for intel to make an official statement before buying one. I suggest you do the same.

 

[alcoholbob]

Well we have yet to see an SSD that is actually compatible with Windows 7 TRIM. Once we see that we'll be able to see what Microsoft really means when they say TRIM will "run in the background." You probably don't want to be playing a competitive shooter and see a hiccup.

 

[taltamir]

AFAIK windows 7 RC sends a trim command every time it deletes a file. All controllers simply forward it to the drives. which simply discard it as an unknown command. When it is finally implemented that means that the drive actually does something with the knowledge, it could choose to mark it on a table for keeping a certain percent of the drive clean (most likely), it could immediately erase it on the spot (simpler to do, but really bad idea).

 

[Denithor]

Originally posted by: taltamir
that is why i am actually waiting for intel to make an official statement before buying one. I suggest you do the same.

Great advice there. Think I'll follow it.

 

[meson2000]

Yeah, I guess I will wait it out too...

 

[undoIT]

Is driver-level support required in order for TRIM to work? If that is the case, does anyone know if TRIM is supported in Linux?

 

[Qbah]

Don't want to start a new topic and my question is somewhat similar... So I'm planning to get me a G2 Intel when i get my Win7 HP from Amazon. Running on a P35 chipset and my two drives are in RAID0 now (will be used as storage later). So since my SATA controller is running in RAID mode, will TRIM still work? I want to keep the two drives in RAID0 and have my OS on the SSD.

 

[taltamir]

oh, now that is a tricky question... um, I don't know...

 

[Owls]

Originally posted by: Qbah
Don't want to start a new topic and my question is somewhat similar... So I'm planning to get me a G2 Intel when i get my Win7 HP from Amazon. Running on a P35 chipset and my two drives are in RAID0 now (will be used as storage later). So since my SATA controller is running in RAID mode, will TRIM still work? I want to keep the two drives in RAID0 and have my OS on the SSD.

TRIM does not work in RAID at the moment. The raid drivers need to support it and they do not. I do know that Areca and Adaptec are coming out with TRIM support in their future raid cards. It still remains to be seen if Intel will update drivers to support it using their ICHR chips.

 

[Qbah]

Originally posted by: Owls

Originally posted by: Qbah
Don't want to start a new topic and my question is somewhat similar... So I'm planning to get me a G2 Intel when i get my Win7 HP from Amazon. Running on a P35 chipset and my two drives are in RAID0 now (will be used as storage later). So since my SATA controller is running in RAID mode, will TRIM still work? I want to keep the two drives in RAID0 and have my OS on the SSD.

TRIM does not work in RAID at the moment. The raid drivers need to support it and they do not at. I do know that Areca and Adaptec are coming out with TRIM support in their future raid cards.

Yes, I know TRIM is not supported when the drives are in RAID. But the setup would be 1xSSD + 2xHDD in RAID0. So I would be adding a new drive to my system and wanted to leave the RAID0 as it is. And my question is:

Will the SATA controller pass the TRIM command correctly to the SSD, even though it's working in RAID mode because there are drives attached to it configured as a RAID0 array? Obviously TRIM is useless for the two magnetic drives (them being in RAID0 and not knowing what the command does in the first place), but will the SSD still receive the command attached to the same SATA controller? Because technically the SSD won't be in any array...

 

[Owls]

Originally posted by: Qbah

Originally posted by: Owls

Originally posted by: Qbah
Don't want to start a new topic and my question is somewhat similar... So I'm planning to get me a G2 Intel when i get my Win7 HP from Amazon. Running on a P35 chipset and my two drives are in RAID0 now (will be used as storage later). So since my SATA controller is running in RAID mode, will TRIM still work? I want to keep the two drives in RAID0 and have my OS on the SSD.

TRIM does not work in RAID at the moment. The raid drivers need to support it and they do not at. I do know that Areca and Adaptec are coming out with TRIM support in their future raid cards.

Yes, I know TRIM is not supported when the drives are in RAID. But the setup would be 1xSSD + 2xHDD in RAID0. So I would be adding a new drive to my system and wanted to leave the RAID0 as it is. And my question is:

Will the SATA controller pass the TRIM command correctly to the SSD, even though it's working in RAID mode because there are drives attached to it configured as a RAID0 array? Obviously TRIM is useless for the two magnetic drives (them being in RAID0 and not knowing what the command does in the first place), but will the SSD still receive the command attached to the same SATA controller? Because technically the SSD won't be in any array...

No, it will not work even if it is a single disk by itself. It needs to be in AHCI/IDE mode for TRIM to work.

 

[Qbah]

Originally posted by: Owls

Originally posted by: Qbah
Yes, I know TRIM is not supported when the drives are in RAID. But the setup would be 1xSSD + 2xHDD in RAID0. So I would be adding a new drive to my system and wanted to leave the RAID0 as it is. And my question is:

Will the SATA controller pass the TRIM command correctly to the SSD, even though it's working in RAID mode because there are drives attached to it configured as a RAID0 array? Obviously TRIM is useless for the two magnetic drives (them being in RAID0 and not knowing what the command does in the first place), but will the SSD still receive the command attached to the same SATA controller? Because technically the SSD won't be in any array...

No, it will not work even if it is a single disk by itself. It needs to be in AHCI/IDE mode for TRIM to work.

Thanks for confirming. Looks like I will need to split the array then

Now to wait for an official statement from Intel regarding their SSDs and TRIM support in general

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Owls

Originally posted by: Qbah

Originally posted by: Owls

Originally posted by: Qbah
Don't want to start a new topic and my question is somewhat similar... So I'm planning to get me a G2 Intel when i get my Win7 HP from Amazon. Running on a P35 chipset and my two drives are in RAID0 now (will be used as storage later). So since my SATA controller is running in RAID mode, will TRIM still work? I want to keep the two drives in RAID0 and have my OS on the SSD.

TRIM does not work in RAID at the moment. The raid drivers need to support it and they do not at. I do know that Areca and Adaptec are coming out with TRIM support in their future raid cards.

Yes, I know TRIM is not supported when the drives are in RAID. But the setup would be 1xSSD + 2xHDD in RAID0. So I would be adding a new drive to my system and wanted to leave the RAID0 as it is. And my question is:

Will the SATA controller pass the TRIM command correctly to the SSD, even though it's working in RAID mode because there are drives attached to it configured as a RAID0 array? Obviously TRIM is useless for the two magnetic drives (them being in RAID0 and not knowing what the command does in the first place), but will the SSD still receive the command attached to the same SATA controller? Because technically the SSD won't be in any array...

No, it will not work even if it is a single disk by itself. It needs to be in AHCI/IDE mode for TRIM to work.

says who?
The reason trim does not work in RAID is because the raid controller MUST understand what is going on and remap it to the various component drives that make an array...
Not because of the mode. EX: trim sector 1000 through 2000, needs to be intercepted and understood by the controller, which then must issue a trim command to drive A for sectors 500-1000 and to drive B to trim 500-1000 as well... if in raid0. If in raid 1 it must be passed as trim 1000-2000 to both. If in intel MATRIX raid it must be custom tailored to the particular raid configuration you have. If in raid5 then it must be split between more drives. and so on... every single raid mode requires some sort of custom mapping.

I see no reason why it could not simply forward it to a non member drive that is operating a simple volume on a controller set to RAID mode.

the question is... WILL it...

 

[Owls]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: Owls

Originally posted by: Qbah

Originally posted by: Owls

Originally posted by: Qbah
Don't want to start a new topic and my question is somewhat similar... So I'm planning to get me a G2 Intel when i get my Win7 HP from Amazon. Running on a P35 chipset and my two drives are in RAID0 now (will be used as storage later). So since my SATA controller is running in RAID mode, will TRIM still work? I want to keep the two drives in RAID0 and have my OS on the SSD.

TRIM does not work in RAID at the moment. The raid drivers need to support it and they do not at. I do know that Areca and Adaptec are coming out with TRIM support in their future raid cards.

Yes, I know TRIM is not supported when the drives are in RAID. But the setup would be 1xSSD + 2xHDD in RAID0. So I would be adding a new drive to my system and wanted to leave the RAID0 as it is. And my question is:

Will the SATA controller pass the TRIM command correctly to the SSD, even though it's working in RAID mode because there are drives attached to it configured as a RAID0 array? Obviously TRIM is useless for the two magnetic drives (them being in RAID0 and not knowing what the command does in the first place), but will the SSD still receive the command attached to the same SATA controller? Because technically the SSD won't be in any array...

No, it will not work even if it is a single disk by itself. It needs to be in AHCI/IDE mode for TRIM to work.

says who?
The reason trim does not work in RAID is because the raid controller MUST understand what is going on and remap it to the various component drives that make an array...
Not because of the mode. EX: trim sector 1000 through 2000, needs to be intercepted and understood by the controller, which then must issue a trim command to drive A for sectors 500-1000 and to drive B to trim 500-1000 as well... if in raid0. If in raid 1 it must be passed as trim 1000-2000 to both. If in intel MATRIX raid it must be custom tailored to the particular raid configuration you have. If in raid5 then it must be split between more drives. and so on... every single raid mode requires some sort of custom mapping.

I see no reason why it could not simply forward it to a non member drive that is operating a simple volume on a controller set to RAID mode.

the question is... WILL it...

I guess I'll do a "diamond member's" work. Hope you like pie.

http://www.anandtech.com/stora...owdoc.aspx?i=3631&p=15

Also, TRIM is an ATA command so I don't understand where you get the idea the controller itself has to worry about the command. All points indicate that this ought to be fixed with updated drivers. I guess I need to up my post count so people will believe me!

 

[taltamir]

I am not a fan of pie, and still irrelevant info. I have read this and MANY others...

Unfortunately if you?re running an Intel controller in RAID mode (whether non-member RAID or not), Windows 7 loads Intel?s Matrix Storage Manager driver, which presently does not pass the TRIM command.

Read what it says... if you use RAID mode IN AN INTEL CONTROLLER it will load the INTEL DRIVES which currently do not support trim in any form.
This has absolutely no bearing on the question on whether or not all controllers are affected by this issue, and whether or not this is gonna be a permanent issue (highly unlikely, a fix is already in the works).

Intel is working on a solution to this and I'd expect that it'll get fixed after the release of Intel's 34nm TRIM firmware in Q4 of this year.

This also has nothing to do with what I was discussing. I was saying that there is a FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM with running trim on a raid MEMBER because it MUST be address translated. However as a NON member I don't SEE any reason whatsoever to not just forward the command to it without any modifications. I was asking if someone knows whether this will or will not be a problem.

I guess I need to up my post count so people will believe me!

Believe what? You completely contradict yourself in the two posts, in the first you say it will never work in non member drives RAID mode, in the second you say it will work in non member drives in RAID mode.

 

[Owls]

Originally posted by: taltamir
I am not a fan of pie, and still irrelevant info. I have read this and MANY others...

Unfortunately if you?re running an Intel controller in RAID mode (whether non-member RAID or not), Windows 7 loads Intel?s Matrix Storage Manager driver, which presently does not pass the TRIM command.

Read what it says... if you use RAID mode IN AN INTEL CONTROLLER it will load the INTEL DRIVES which currently do not support trim in any form.
This has absolutely no bearing on the question on whether or not all controllers are affected by this issue, and whether or not this is gonna be a permanent issue (highly unlikely, a fix is already in the works).

Intel is working on a solution to this and I'd expect that it'll get fixed after the release of Intel's 34nm TRIM firmware in Q4 of this year.

This also has nothing to do with what I was discussing. I was saying that there is a FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM with running trim on a raid MEMBER because it MUST be address translated. However as a NON member I don't SEE any reason whatsoever to not just forward the command to it without any modifications. I was asking if someone knows whether this will or will not be a problem.

I guess I need to up my post count so people will believe me!

Believe what? You completely contradict yourself in the two posts, in the first you say it will never work in non member drives RAID mode, in the second you say it will work in non member drives in RAID mode.

Dude do you even read your own posts? I never contradicted myself. I clarified that currently NO RAID IMPLEMENTATION WORKS WITH TRIM DUE TO DRIVERS NOT SUPPORTING IT. Only ACHI/IDE and I hear there might be such a thing as TRIM pass-thru for RAID settings. Also, I don't see your question (because you haven't actually asked it until your response) about what RAID works or doesn't because AGAIN (read carefully) it is currently a DRIVER ISSUE. I even have a LSI MegaRaid controller in my P5BV/SAS but it is currently hosting my vmware hosts and I can't be arsed into proving you wrong.

 

[taltamir]

Qbah: Will the SATA controller pass the TRIM command correctly to the SSD, even though it's working in RAID mode because there are drives attached to it configured as a RAID0 array? Obviously TRIM is useless for the two magnetic drives (them being in RAID0 and not knowing what the command does in the first place), but will the SSD still receive the command attached to the same SATA controller? Because technically the SSD won't be in any array...

owls: No, it will not work even if it is a single disk by itself. It needs to be in AHCI/IDE mode for TRIM to work.

taltamir: I see no reason why it could not simply forward it to a non member drive that is operating a simple volume on a controller set to RAID mode.

owls: TRIM is an ATA command so I don't understand where you get the idea the controller itself has to worry about the command. All points indicate that this ought to be fixed with updated drivers.

Both bolded parts said by owls, contradict.

 

[Owls]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Qbah: Will the SATA controller pass the TRIM command correctly to the SSD, even though it's working in RAID mode because there are drives attached to it configured as a RAID0 array? Obviously TRIM is useless for the two magnetic drives (them being in RAID0 and not knowing what the command does in the first place), but will the SSD still receive the command attached to the same SATA controller? Because technically the SSD won't be in any array...

owls: No, it will not work even if it is a single disk by itself. It needs to be in AHCI/IDE mode for TRIM to work.

taltamir: I see no reason why it could not simply forward it to a non member drive that is operating a simple volume on a controller set to RAID mode.

owls: TRIM is an ATA command so I don't understand where you get the idea the controller itself has to worry about the command. All points indicate that this ought to be fixed with updated drivers.

Both bolded parts said by owls, contradict.

Nothing contradicts. I hate to say it but you are completely illiterate when it comes to technology and a quick look at your post history only points towards argumentative posts where you are shot down repeatedly.

Quite frankly, I don't even know WHAT you are getting at as the situation is very simple. Enable raid = TRIM NO WORKY EVEN AS A NON MEMBER OF THE RAID.

What I said about the TRIM being a simple ATA command merely suggests that the driver does not understand it and thus just gets ignored. I'm completely baffled as to how you can even confuse the two statements.

Please let me know if I should use pictures, I'd be happy to oblige.

 

[isp]

don't feed ze trollz!

 

[aka1nas]

Originally posted by: taltamir

This also has nothing to do with what I was discussing. I was saying that there is a FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM with running trim on a raid MEMBER because it MUST be address translated. However as a NON member I don't SEE any reason whatsoever to not just forward the command to it without any modifications. I was asking if someone knows whether this will or will not be a problem.

I'd imagine that if the RAID driver is already not TRIM-aware that it won't pass the command on correctly and would just throw it away at that level.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Owls

Originally posted by: taltamir

Qbah: Will the SATA controller pass the TRIM command correctly to the SSD, even though it's working in RAID mode because there are drives attached to it configured as a RAID0 array? Obviously TRIM is useless for the two magnetic drives (them being in RAID0 and not knowing what the command does in the first place), but will the SSD still receive the command attached to the same SATA controller? Because technically the SSD won't be in any array...

owls: No, it will not work even if it is a single disk by itself. It needs to be in AHCI/IDE mode for TRIM to work.

taltamir: I see no reason why it could not simply forward it to a non member drive that is operating a simple volume on a controller set to RAID mode.

owls: TRIM is an ATA command so I don't understand where you get the idea the controller itself has to worry about the command. All points indicate that this ought to be fixed with updated drivers.

Both bolded parts said by owls, contradict.

Nothing contradicts. I hate to say it but you are completely illiterate when it comes to technology and a quick look at your post history only points towards argumentative posts where you are shot down repeatedly.

Quite frankly, I don't even know WHAT you are getting at as the situation is very simple. Enable raid = TRIM NO WORKY EVEN AS A NON MEMBER OF THE RAID.

What I said about the TRIM being a simple ATA command merely suggests that the driver does not understand it and thus just gets ignored. I'm completely baffled as to how you can even confuse the two statements.

Please let me know if I should use pictures, I'd be happy to oblige.

in the second post you told me to do my research (combined with a personal insult) and posted a link:
http://www.anandtech.com/stora...owdoc.aspx?i=3631&p=15
60% of the text in that page is pertinent to the discussion and said this:

There are significant limitations to TRIM at this point. The instruction only works in a supported OS (Windows 7 and some Linux builds) and only with supported drivers. Under Windows 7 that means you have to use a Microsoft made IDE or AHCI driver (you can't install chipset drivers from anyone else).

Unfortunately if you?re running an Intel controller in RAID mode (whether non-member RAID or not), Windows 7 loads Intel?s Matrix Storage Manager driver, which presently does not pass the TRIM command. Intel is working on a solution to this and I'd expect that it'll get fixed after the release of Intel's 34nm TRIM firmware in Q4 of this year.

This EXPLICITLY says that TRIM WILL WORK in RAID mode for non members, all it takes is a simple driver update which intel will release in Q4.

 

[Owls]

Holy crap man. Everyone knows that (or is beginning to understand) TRIM does not work with raid CURRENTLY. I have never said "it will never work" or anything to that effect. Please stop this neurosis and do something else with your time other than examining every minutae of SSDs.

Sorry for insulting you but you need to really look at your own posts.

 

[taltamir]

completely irrelevant owls. Currently trim doesn't work for anyone, and FYI windows 7 hasn't been released officially, yet.
the question was:

Don't want to start a new topic and my question is somewhat similar... So I'm planning to get me a G2 Intel when i get my Win7 HP from Amazon. Running on a P35 chipset and my two drives are in RAID0 now (will be used as storage later). So since my SATA controller is running in RAID mode, will TRIM still work? I want to keep the two drives in RAID0 and have my OS on the SSD.

 

[Qbah]

From what I understood, once Windows 7 goes retail, hopefully Intel will release a controller driver for Windows 7 that allows the SSD to receive the TRIM command, even though it's not a member of a RAID array but is connected to a controller working in RAID mode I don't really feel like breaking my RAID0 and would like my SSD to work at full capacity. Thanks.